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Greentea
Goddess of Wisdom
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Age: 48
Posts: 5678
Location: Middle East
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 Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:44 am Post subject: Why is it easier for NTs to feign? |
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I know that many NTs' behaviors do not come naturally to them, same as for us Aspies they need to feign. Things like ass-kissing, cocktail party mingling, white lies, etc.
But they feign with much less effort than us (not to mention, more effectively too, but that's another topic). Why is it easier for them?
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So-called white lies are like fake jewelry. Adorn yourself with them if you must, but expect to look cheap to a connoisseur. |
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RealTalk
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Jun 30, 2009
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| There's a saying that goes "Fake it till you make it". So if you fake a behaviour for a while, it because so ingrained into you that you might as well have had it from the very beginning. So I dunno really, my be a case of you get better at thing the more you do it |
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outlier
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 1496
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| Perhaps such people can more easily compartmentalise, separating their true selves from their personas. |
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matsuiny2004
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 23, 2008
Posts: 1634
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:07 am Post subject: |
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because the world is designed for them
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surveys are scientific, they have numbers in them- me (satire) |
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Greentea
Goddess of Wisdom
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Age: 48
Posts: 5678
Location: Middle East
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| outlier wrote: | | Perhaps such people can more easily compartmentalise, separating their true selves from their personas. |
My therapist used to say that I had to develop my False Self (according to the theory of the True and the False Selves, I forget the author).
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So-called white lies are like fake jewelry. Adorn yourself with them if you must, but expect to look cheap to a connoisseur. |
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Janissy
Phoenix
Joined: May 06, 2009
Age: 43
Posts: 1414
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:57 am Post subject: Re: Why is it easier for NTs to feign? |
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| Greentea wrote: | I know that many NTs' behaviors do not come naturally to them, same as for us Aspies they need to feign. Things like ass-kissing, cocktail party mingling, white lies, etc.
But they feign with much less effort than us (not to mention, more effectively too, but that's another topic). Why is it easier for them? |
Practice,practice,practice.
The things you learn how to do when you are very young become such second nature that you don't even realize how you are doing them anymore as an adult.
Neither the NT 3 year old nor the Aspie 3 year old has the slightest idea how to feign, fake it till you make it etc. Both go bumbling around, blurting out the wrong thing, bursting into tears and making the other kid burst into tears. But the NT 3 year old really, really WANTS to be in the group while the Aspie 3 year old really , really WANTS to work on or learn about whatever his special interest is. Parents and preschool teachers immediately begin lessons on how to feign to fit into the group. These lessons take hold with the NT 3 year old but not with the Aspie 3 year old because they are trying to teach him how to do something he has zero interest in doing.
I think the most common feign/fake it till you make it lesson at that age is the forced apology. "Tell Billy you're sorry you took his toy" says mom or the preschool teacher. Whether the 3 year old in question is actually sorry or not is irrelevent. It's not about telling the truth (probably neither the NT nor Aspie 3 year old is actually sorry at that young age). It's about smoothing things over and calming the other person's hurt feelings so that group dynamics can return to normal. This is important to the NT 3 year old. And utterly irrelevent to the Aspie 3 year old. (I'm projecting, but probably not that far off considering the animosity to white lies.)
The things you start practicing at 3 years old become so ingrained that they are literally second nature. The things you start practicing at 17...not so much. |
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nara44
Deinonychus
Joined: May 17, 2008
Age: 55
Posts: 358
Location: Israel
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Why is it easier for NTs to feign? |
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| Greentea wrote: | I know that many NTs' behaviors do not come naturally to them, same as for us Aspies they need to feign. Things like ass-kissing, cocktail party mingling, white lies, etc.
But they feign with much less effort than us (not to mention, more effectively too, but that's another topic). Why is it easier for them? |
Because they don't really care about people or anything else,
The NT brains wired in such a way that it cannot see the connections between different things so they do not and can not understand the implications of their behaviour
it takes a developed and balanced personality to really get the importance of honesty and it takes a soul to get how critical it is to make real connection with another human being,
NT doesn't have a soul so all they can sense is a very short term goals and very fragmented reality where things never add up to anything meaningful so they have no problem in destroying themselves and the others,
that's why they considered to be healthy by the pro's who are the most soulless of all critters/ |
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TonyFremont
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jun 27, 2009
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Why is it easier for NTs to feign? |
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| nara44 wrote: | | Greentea wrote: | I know that many NTs' behaviors do not come naturally to them, same as for us Aspies they need to feign. Things like ass-kissing, cocktail party mingling, white lies, etc.
But they feign with much less effort than us (not to mention, more effectively too, but that's another topic). Why is it easier for them? |
Because they don't really care about people or anything else,
The NT brains wired in such a way that it cannot see the connections between different things so they do not and can not understand the implications of their behaviour
it takes a developed and balanced personality to really get the importance of honesty and it takes a soul to get how critical it is to make real connection with another human being,
NT doesn't have a soul so all they can sense is a very short term goals and very fragmented reality where things never add up to anything meaningful so they have no problem in destroying themselves and the others,
that's why they considered to be healthy by the pro's who are the most soulless of all critters/ |
Beautifully said. The majority of people on the planet are jackasses and the single common denominator in all my personal issues is the rest of the world. I've never heard pure hatred put so poetically.
Good luck with that. |
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RealTalk
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Jun 30, 2009
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Why is it easier for NTs to feign? |
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| nara44 wrote: | | Greentea wrote: | I know that many NTs' behaviors do not come naturally to them, same as for us Aspies they need to feign. Things like ass-kissing, cocktail party mingling, white lies, etc.
But they feign with much less effort than us (not to mention, more effectively too, but that's another topic). Why is it easier for them? |
Because they don't really care about people or anything else,
The NT brains wired in such a way that it cannot see the connections between different things so they do not and can not understand the implications of their behaviour
it takes a developed and balanced personality to really get the importance of honesty and it takes a soul to get how critical it is to make real connection with another human being,
NT doesn't have a soul so all they can sense is a very short term goals and very fragmented reality where things never add up to anything meaningful so they have no problem in destroying themselves and the others,
that's why they considered to be healthy by the pro's who are the most soulless of all critters/ |
 why then, enlighten us on your soul and compassion filled philosophy how people should be |
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cosmiccat
Escapee - Fugitive - Drifter
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Posts: 2623
Location: In someone else's room with no money
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Quoting Jannisy:
| Quote: | | I think the most common feign/fake it till you make it lesson at that age is the forced apology. "Tell Billy you're sorry you took his toy" says mom or the preschool teacher. Whether the 3 year old in question is actually sorry or not is irrelevent. It's not about telling the truth (probably neither the NT nor Aspie 3 year old is actually sorry at that young age). It's about smoothing things over and calming the other person's hurt feelings so that group dynamics can return to normal. This is important to the NT 3 year old. And utterly irrelevent to the Aspie 3 year old. (I'm projecting, but probably not that far off considering the animosity to white lies.) |
Oh, that's a very good point. Especially when a child is forced to apologize for something he or she really didn't do or is humiliated into issuing an phony apology. I can see how that would start the ball rolling towards a false self. And Aspie kids would be stubborn enough (at least my kids) refuse no matter what the consequences. But, I never expected or asked my kids to do that kind of thing, other authority figures did though, like teachers, neighbors. But they certainly didn't do it in my presence, I can assure you.
Also, I have always been against the idea of making kids share their toys or personal property. If they did it on their own, that was fine. After all, adults aren't forced to share their personal toys or property, why should children have to. "Share and Share Alike" - bah humbug. I'd like to know who came up with that proverb. It wasn't an Aspie.
And Greentea - You always come up with such good thread topics.
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"I want to show that the dividing lines between sanity and mental illness have been drawn in the wrong place. The sane are madder than we think, the mad saner." Anthony Storr
“A woman must have money and a room of her own” Virgina Woolf
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Greentea
Goddess of Wisdom
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Age: 48
Posts: 5678
Location: Middle East
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you, cosmiccat. These topics are the many questions I ask myself all the time, and I post them as they pop in my head.
I enjoyed your reply very much, wish I'd had a mom like you.
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So-called white lies are like fake jewelry. Adorn yourself with them if you must, but expect to look cheap to a connoisseur. |
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Henriksson
Procrastination Embodied
Joined: Nov 24, 2008
Age: 18
Posts: 2554
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Why is it easier for NTs to feign? |
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Oh no, another "Asperger über alles" post.
| nara44 wrote: |
Because they don't really care about people or anything else, |
Hmm, that sounds more like an AS than an NT.
| Quote: | | The NT brains wired in such a way that it cannot see the connections between different things so they do not and can not understand the implications of their behaviour |
Sounds more AS too...
| Quote: | | it takes a developed and balanced personality to really get the importance of honesty and it takes a soul to get how critical it is to make real connection with another human being, |
What, all NTs are bloody liars? I thought NTs were supposed to be better, and more interested in, making connections with others, anyway.
| Quote: | | NT doesn't have a soul |
I'm intrigued by this. What does it mean? The concept of 'souls' are bunk anyway.
| Quote: | | so all they can sense is a very short term goals |
How are NTs more short-term than AS?
| Quote: | | and very fragmented reality where things never add up to anything meaningful so they have no problem in destroying themselves and the others, |
That also sounds suspiciously more AS.
| Quote: | | that's why they considered to be healthy by the pro's who are the most soulless of all critters |
There you go with 'soulless' again.
Fun fact: replace the first two 'NT' in the post and replace it with 'AS', and it makes as much sense.
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"Purity is for drinking water, not people" - Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. |
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fernando
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 23, 2006
Age: 28
Posts: 567
Location: in a room where it's nine in the afternoon, where thoughts can bloom
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Why is it easier for NTs to feign? |
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| nara44 wrote: | The NT brains wired in such a way that it cannot see the connections between different things so they do not and can not understand the implications of their behaviour
it takes a developed and balanced personality to really get the importance of honesty and it takes a soul to get how critical it is to make real connection with another human being,
NT doesn't have a soul so all they can sense is a very short term goals and very fragmented reality ... |
lol
(tho deep inside i agree NTs are on autopilot during social interaction, which disables long term goal analysis)
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"I have only come here seeking knowledge...... things they would not teach me of in college" - Sting |
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TonyFremont
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jun 27, 2009
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Why is it easier for NTs to feign? |
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| Janissy wrote: | | I think the most common feign/fake it till you make it lesson at that age is the forced apology. "Tell Billy you're sorry you took his toy" says mom or the preschool teacher. Whether the 3 year old in question is actually sorry or not is irrelevent. It's not about telling the truth (probably neither the NT nor Aspie 3 year old is actually sorry at that young age). It's about smoothing things over and calming the other person's hurt feelings so that group dynamics can return to normal. This is important to the NT 3 year old. And utterly irrelevent to the Aspie 3 year old. |
I'm going to guess it's as important to the NT 3 year old as it is to the AS 3 year old. Apologies are important to adults, and apologies are an early part of conditioning children to socialize in their later years. Kids just want their toys back.
My mom taught me the apology of omission, which means "I'm sorry (I didn't get away with it)" and "I apologize (for making you tattle and get me in trouble)" except you leave out the parts in parenthesis. It makes the apology a lot more sincere.
Later, someone explained that "sorry" isn't always an admission of guilt, you can be sorry your actions hurt someone without being sorry for committing the act in the first place.
| Henriksson wrote: | | Oh no, another "Asperger über alles" post. |
It's pretty easy for any forum of like minded people to deteriorate into a hate forum. |
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Greentea
Goddess of Wisdom
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Age: 48
Posts: 5678
Location: Middle East
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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Janissy deserves A HUGE THANKS for giving her thoroughly explained insight as an NT in this kind of threads where we Aspies are so totally clueless.
And I say this regardless of whether my values concur or don't concur with the NT values reflected in her posts. I'm not on these threads seeking validation for my values but to try and understand the NT mentality better so I can fit in better when I need to, and also out of healthy curiosity.
Janissy also deserves a special resilience mention for continuing sharing her insight with us unswervingly even in the face of our typical and inevitable Aspie rejection of NT values.
Honest, straightforward, clear explanations from NTs to Aspies is one of the most difficult things to find in this life. I know this after 50 years of seeking, including 30 years of therapies that prove there are some things that money can't buy.
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So-called white lies are like fake jewelry. Adorn yourself with them if you must, but expect to look cheap to a connoisseur. |
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