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Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: May 11, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 70
Location: West Lafayette or Plainfield, IN
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 Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:22 am Post subject: Healthcare reform |
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Just passed the house 220-215. Anybody have any thoughts?
I'm all for it. |
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Fo-Rum
Sea Gull
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 25
Posts: 218
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:28 am Post subject: |
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I'm against it. While it is meant to "help" people, which is a good thing overall, if there are no consequences that will worsen our situation!
However, I continually read of how it will be pretty damned bad. I don't understand all the reasons and economic stuff behind it all, but I do get the idea.
My friend kept wanting "free" health care for anyone, he thinks it will be good. Sorry, but there is no free lunch. Somebody has to pay.
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Permanently inane. |
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Nan
Phoenix
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Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 3929
Location: the ultimate elsewhere
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:33 am Post subject: |
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people die in this country every day because they cannot get healthcare. my daughter has a pre-existing condition. when she ages off my employer-based plan in two months, there is no program for her. she spent one day and one night in the hospital a year or two ago, for observation. the bill came in at $17,000. i'm a secretary, you think i can cover that? right.
yes, i'm for it, and yes, i'm willing to pay for it as much as i can. what the hell kind of a country is it that lets the sick, the elderly, and children die when care is available only if you can pay for it, but funds tennis courts and football stadiums....?
it hasn't passed the senate yet anyway. the senate has to vote, then they have to hash out something they both like, then there's another vote. it ain't over til the fat lady sings.
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And a one, and a two.... |
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Jacoby
Sea Gull
Joined: Dec 11, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 233
Location: Midwest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:04 am Post subject: |
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Against it. Think it will hurt the quality and raise the prices of everybody's healthcare while not even covering everyone. There will be rationing and there will be lines. I see it more as another power grab by the Obama administration than anything else.
The tax payer shouldn't be paying for tennis courts and football stadiums either btw.
This fight is long from over. I was surprised the House vote was as close as it was. 2010 is gunna be ugly. |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 59
Posts: 13241
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:41 am Post subject: |
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GOP Bill Goes Down to Defeat
GOP alternative amendment (i.e., the House GOP's bill) goes down to defeat 258-176.
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where sin abounds, grace abounds the more;
Non omnis moriar |
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Wedge
Toucan
Joined: Oct 16, 2008
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:15 am Post subject: |
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Weel I'm not even American to begin with but I will state my opinion. Every other developed country has government insurance, that is government pays for health care bills, exept England where the hospitals are public owned and not private (England is the only true example of socialized medice). The argument I will put foward is based on Paul Krugman. He says the costs of health care are unevenly distributed among people so that if you happen to have cancer your health care bill is going to be higher so that is the rationale for insurance. He argues that single-payer health care would flatten the income distribution as the more well-off would pay for the health care treatment of the more poor. Krugman goes on and argue that the current system based on private insurance is ineficient as US had the highest yearly spending per pacient in health care (I guess it was 7,000 USD per person per year) and only scored 37th in WHO's ranking of overall health care performance (by the time the book was written). He claims that the inefficiency is due to the screening methods used by private insurers to scan the person for previous disseases or conditions. He claims that private insurers have to use these methods or they would lose their profits. This would add a huge bureaucracy to the system increasing its overall costs. In the system based on single-payer screening costs would be cut-off. Those are Paul Krugman arguments.
I know that many people will be against those arguments but hey I'm just trying to discuss the issue in a civilized manner. |
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david_42
Sea Gull
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
Posts: 211
Location: PNW, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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Despite all the noise about guber'dent deathcare, the bill:
Eliminates waiting periods when you change jobs.
Eliminates screening based on health problems.
Eliminates refusal of insurance for pre-existing conditions.
Eliminates the health care monopoly immunity.
Eliminates dropping of insurance when someone gets seriously ill.
Etc.
Almost everything in the package eliminates unfair treatment of people with private insurance.
Only a small fraction of Americans will be able to qualify for the government-backed insurance. |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 59
Posts: 13241
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| david_42 wrote: | Despite all the noise about guber'dent deathcare, the bill:
Eliminates waiting periods when you change jobs.
Eliminates screening based on health problems.
Eliminates refusal of insurance for pre-existing conditions.
Eliminates the health care monopoly immunity.
Eliminates dropping of insurance when someone gets seriously ill.
Etc.
Almost everything in the package eliminates unfair treatment of people with private insurance.
Only a small fraction of Americans will be able to qualify for the government-backed insurance. |
I work with Medicare recipients daily, and they are astonished and chagrined in their militant opposition of "Obamacare" until I tell them that the $2,700 cap on their yearly prescriptions is going to be eliminated. Then they are suspicious that they never heard about that! from Fox News.
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where sin abounds, grace abounds the more;
Non omnis moriar |
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Nan
Phoenix
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Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 3929
Location: the ultimate elsewhere
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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exactly. and the lifetime limits are to be eliminated. so, if your disease treatment costs more than the, say, $100,000 cap on your insurance, you won't be left to die after you hit the $100,000. what price a life, anyway? 
from what i see, the bill eliminates a number of serious abuses by the healthcare industry. it sets up collectives (not the word they used, but all i can think of right now) where people can go to find insurance, and it helps with the premium costs if you cannot afford them.
i think i saw that the premium cap per person was $1,500 a year (I'm already paying that), and the overall out-of-pocket expense per person was $5,000 a year. something like that. so it's not as if you just walk in and get everything you need absolutely free - if you can't afford it, that's different. if you can, you pay. as of right my kid, when she ages off my insurance, can go COBRA for a while. at $500 per month ($6,000 per year), plus deductables and co-pays. she'll be earning close to minimum wage - when she's working. do the math and thank goodness she has the option to live in my home instead of trying to make it on her own.
and they can't use "spousal abuse" as a pre-existing condition to deny you coverage. (or, say, autism.)
waiting. yeah, i don't buy that will change for the worse, much. we've been trying to get my daughter a firm diagnoses for over 10 years. the wait on this last specialist/tests... well, it's now november and we first called to try to get it taken care of in FEBRUARY. we're already rationed and we're already waiting. it took me five months to get an appointment for a physical recently, when i started having some problems that needed a relatively quick look-over.
whatever, the bill that passes the senate, if it passes the senate, will have been gutted by the insurance industry lobby who will have gotten to the key senators. there's a lot of money at stake here, and the private insurers want to keep their profit margins up. $$$$ usually wins.
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And a one, and a two.... |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 59
Posts: 13241
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Nan wrote: | exactly. and the lifetime limits are to be eliminated. so, if your disease treatment costs more than the, say, $100,000 cap on your insurance, you won't be left to die after you hit the $100,000. what price a life, anyway?
from what i see, the bill eliminates a number of serious abuses by the healthcare industry. it sets up collectives (not the word they used, but all i can think of right now) where people can go to find insurance, and it helps with the premium costs if you cannot afford them.
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Exchanges is the word you are looking for, I believe. 
| Nan wrote: |
as of right my kid, when she ages off my insurance, can go COBRA for a while. at $500 per month ($6,000 per year), plus deductables and co-pays. she'll be earning close to minimum wage - when she's working. do the math and thank goodness she has the option to live in my home instead of trying to make it on her own. |
It has changed the age for children on the parents policy to 27, I believe, with out being a student.
| Nan wrote: | and they can't use "spousal abuse" as a pre-existing condition to deny you coverage. (or, say, autism.)
whatever, the bill that passes the senate, if it passes the senate, will have been gutted by the insurance industry lobby who will have gotten to the key senators. there's a lot of money at stake here, and the private insurers want to keep their profit margins up. $$$$ usually wins. |
usually, but perhaps not this time. . . we shall see.
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where sin abounds, grace abounds the more;
Non omnis moriar
Last edited by sinsboldly on Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 59
Posts: 13241
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| myfriendwrote wrote: | There are many events in life that, while more or less predictable in themselves (House passage of the health care bill), turn out to have an impact and significance that is only truly apparent after they occur. The passage of the House health care reform bill last night strikes me as one of them.
The precise contours of the post-conference legislation remains uncertain in a number of key respects, especially in regards to the public option. But having watched the events leading up to the House vote and the politicking in the senate, I have little doubt that a broadly similar bill will pass the senate, be reconciled with the House bill in a conference report and bill that will be signed by the president in relatively short order.
The reason these sorts of events happen so infrequently is that they are like colossal ships or vast armies, very difficult to build or assemble and get on their way but also extremely difficult to stop or turn once they are under way.
As Bill Kristol noted in his famous 1993 GOP strategy memo on the Clinton health care reform initiative, the key danger Republicans face from health care reform is precisely that the public will like it. And I suspect that the more forward thinking and perspicacious of his partisan colleagues today see it the same way.
If a health care reform bill passes, it's greatest point of vulnerability will be in the 2010 election. That's not only because of the on-going fall-out of the 2008 financial crisis, which sets the Democrats up for a tough midterm election. It's also because a lot of the key reforms in the legislation don't kick in for a few years. But even if you assume the worst possible outcome for the Democrats in 2010, loss of both houses of Congress, Republican majorities still wouldn't be able to overturn the law because President Obama would veto their repeal.
Last night's vote makes me think this will happen and it will be a genuinely historic development. |
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/11/there_are_many_events_in.php#more?ref=fpblg
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where sin abounds, grace abounds the more;
Non omnis moriar |
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RainSong
Seatbelts Totally Cause Autism
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 4451
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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Except House health care overhaul faces Senate stone wall, so it's not done yet.
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"Nothing worth having is easy."
Empathy is when you feel the emotions of someone else despite never having been through the same or similar situation. Sympathy is when you feel the emotions and have been through the same or similar situation. |
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Coadunate
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 14, 2008
Age: 53
Posts: 663
Location: S. California
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John_Browning
Deinonychus
Joined: Mar 23, 2009
Posts: 386
Location: The shooting range
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:29 am Post subject: |
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I'm just wondering how the insurance companies are going to stay in business much less stay profitable if the proposed legislation gets signed into law.
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kxmode
Supporting Member
Joined: Oct 15, 2007
Posts: 1234
Location: Tauntaun Sleeping Bag
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| John_Browning wrote: | | I'm just wondering how the insurance companies are going to stay in business much less stay profitable if the proposed legislation gets signed into law. |
Exactly. You can't compete against the government. They can take a loss and keep on ticking. In the end EVERYONE will be on Government run healthcare. And the kicker: if you DON'T buy a government approved policy you are not only guilty of a misdemeanor crime (this will go on your record) but you can also be sued for up to $25,000 dollars. Google this.
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