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enamdar
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: May 10, 2009
Posts: 69
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 Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:22 pm Post subject: The Theory of the Leisure Class |
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The Theory of the Leisure Class by Thorstein Veblen is a very interesting work. It is a brilliant combination of anthropology, sociobiology and economics, and draws on a plethora of late 19th century US history trends. Thorstein Veblen was personally associated with almost every major intellectual figure of 1900.
As someone who was at one time almost integrated into society, although with a bit of cognitive dissonance, and has now become separated from humanity largely on philosophical grounds of not being able to understand the mindless cruelty of man, this work helps me understand what humans actually are, even if it doesn't lower my disgust.
Humans are the products of aggressive violence. It was from the blood lust for the hunt, that was transformed into tribal warfare that led to the first primitive consumerism. Women were the first underclass and then the first pieces of property. It was from kidnapping and raping outside women, and then keeping them as sex slave trophies that civilization emerged. All our talk about honor and virtue is in fact a celebration of man's violent aggression.
Anyway the wiki articles give a pretty good summary and vox has a free audiobook
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_of_the_Leisure_Class
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorstein_Veblen
http://librivox.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16291
Look forward to discussion |
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iamnotaparakeet
Si vis scire, quaeris. Si non vis scire, clamitas.
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 24
Posts: 14287
Location: Mars
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: The Theory of the Leisure Class |
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| Quote: | | It was from kidnapping and raping outside women, and then keeping them as sex slave trophies that civilization emerged. |
This is an example of the excrement of masculine bovines being given academic status...
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pandabear
Fleeting Body
Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Age: 51
Posts: 3338
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| I read that book quite a long time ago. He is one of my favourite economists. |
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sartresue
Radical Aspergian
Joined: Dec 19, 2007
Posts: 5207
Location: The Castle of Shock and Awe-tism
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Idol rich topic
There is something to be said for some of Veblen's ideas, and conspicuous consumption is still a problem, like built-in obsolescence. Very NT. Fashion, the newest high tech gadgets, the fifteen minutes of fame, lotteries--these are all holdovers from the Victorian times that ushered in this habit we have to have it all, have it all, etc. The global economic meltdown is the direct result of living beyond one's means. Mistakes can haunt you for years, if you even know you made them.
Of course all this crazed consumerism does drive the market--around the bend!!! 
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Radical Aspergian
Awe-Tistic Whirlwind
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 9205
Location: Omnipresent
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:36 am Post subject: |
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I remember reading that book and I remember being somewhat cynical towards it, but it has been a long time since I have read this book, but I'll give a response a shot.
Is it true that humans are a product of aggressive violence? Yes and no. Humans are a product of a lot of factors, including violence, but including a lot of other qualities.
I would think that the real innovation for civilization was agriculture, which allowed for division of labor and higher inequality, and through that polygamy among the rich(who could afford the most wives).
I generally, however, tend to reject the idea of a parasitic class of people. This isn't to say that some mannerisms aren't wasteful, however, generally speaking, there will always have to be members of society that have power and that are powerbrokers, and organize this power into useful forms. Doing so will require social displays, socialization, etc. I am not sure that we can make political activity into a science, and would tend to doubt the efficacy of efforts to do so. I also tend to doubt that priests are just useless members of society, as I would generally consider the role of a church to be one of a social organization, and the role of a priest as a community organizer, motivator, and counselor. Finally, I doubt that "honor" and "virtue" is just a celebration, I would rather imagine that it is a claim about one's relationship to ethical categories which most human beings accept, which themselves might owe more to social rules for unity than any historical claims(although it does seem to be true that more rule-oriented moralities correlate with status and more outcome-oriented moralities correlate with the lack). However, honor and virtue are also shown in defeats as well, such as with many societies and their relationship to suicide, and in such utter defeat is hardly a way to celebrate victory, it might still be a way to signal high status, but not celebrate.
I will have to admit that I consider a lot of actions to be motivated by showing status, and giving off signals as to some superiority. I don't think that this necessitates a "leisure class", I just think this is a socio-psychological fact. I do think that Thorstein Veblen's book is also to a certain extent his effort to bash everything he disliked as well, but I could just be cynical towards the man.
In any case, if you are interested in the view of human society as a matter of status displays, I would recommend Robin Hanson's blog Overcoming Bias.
http://www.overcomingbias.com/
Hanson is a strong consequentialist, who seeks to deal with bias through analyzing it, and, he also analyzes a lot of human actions as ways to display status. He does not focus on the idea of a "leisure class", but rather I would imagine that he seems status-seeking as a basic human activity that emerged through the evolutionary desire to get the best mates. I would imagine that he and Thorstein Veblen would disagree a lot politically, but I would recommend this blog.
In any case, as I've said, I have not read Veblen's book in a long time. A few years or some such, so anything I say could easily be nonsense.
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LinnaeusCat
Deinonychus
Joined: Jul 23, 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 383
Location: Le Monde
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:10 am Post subject: |
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If you like Veblen, you wil probably enjoy the work of Vance Packard (whose books are pretty easily found at public libraries and online bookstores).
A few especially good ones are:
The Hidden Pursuaders (about the manipulation of consumers via advertising)
The Status Seekers (about the role of status and the quest for conformity and appropation in society).
Neither of these books are recent, but they continue to amaze me with how timelessly relevant they are.
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