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[quote="Chibi_Neko"][quote="m91"] The stupid British government doesn't realise that even if someone is under 16, they are still old enough to take responsibility for their actions.[/quote] Here in Canada the young offender's act is for people 18 and under, it really should be 13 and under.[/quote]
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<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="100%" class="forumline"> <tr> <th class="thCornerL" width="22%" height="26">Author</th> <th class="thCornerR">Message</th> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Carole</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:51 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">ya they sould set laws that can give a teen offender life sentice or somthing like that. i have been attacked by a teen a few years ago and i am still afraid to go anywere alone</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>TLPG</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:20 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">OK if we're talking low self esteem we have to go into why. Bullying isn't necessarily a reflection of that - but it might be. <br /> <br />The bottom line is that if the above is right (and it probably is because it makes sense) my guess would be that these people have been let down by the system and are fighting back against it the wrong way. Hence the reason I asked "why" - and one answer is not THE answer. <br /> <br />The trouble is the fix is not short term - and there has to be one to protect the community. That's where somehow the bit has to be taken between the teeth on protection.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Everchanging</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:51 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">I live near Glasgow and this story isn't giving you the full picture (hardly surprising - the Evening Times always likes to present as positive an image of Glasgow as it can, despite whatever evidence to the contrary, and largely glosses over the city's dire problems). I think I need to provide additional context here for those outwith the UK. <br /> <br />Glasgow has a serious problem on it's hands. A serious scum problem. The city and it's outlying areas are dotted with council estates (known locally as 'the schemes' - an inhabitant of which is known as a 'schemie') that provide some of the poorest quality housing in the developed world, and frequent renovations do nothing to solve the problem as even recently renovated areas very quickly fall back into shambolic disrepair. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aQN9p7a1lU" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" class="postlink" ><span style="font-weight: bold">Watch this</span></a> to get some idea of the scale of the problem. <br /> <br />Now, I know what question you're asking. How can this happen? Can people be so devoid of pride that they would actually live like this? And I would say: welcome to the Glasgow Schemes. <br /> <br /><ul><li>Of the 20 most deprived areas in Scotland, 16 are in Glasgow (one of the other 4 is in neighbouring Renfrewshire)<li>Life expectancy: as low as 64 in places - lower than 40 years ago<li>Almost half the population smoke - including nearly a third of pregnant women<li>More deaths from heart attacks, strokes or cancer than any other city in EUROPE<li>Suicides 50% above the UK average (which tends to be more a Scotland-wide trend, but Glasgow is highest <span style="font-style: italic">in</span> Scotland)</ul> <br /> <br />I could go on...The point, though, is that personal pride is all but extinct in many areas of Glasgow. The aforementioned health crisis (I neglected to mention the bad diets, alcohol abuse, drugs and lack of exercise, but I think you'd already got the picture by then), high unemployment, a toxic culture of religious sectarianism (it could take me all night if I try to explain it so just trust me - it's not a good thing), and lately an epidemic of teenage pregnancy have all taken their toll. Throw in the mass mind-numbing effect of the media and increasingly vacuous popular culture, and each subsequent generation is wedged a little bit further into the gutter than ever before. Hence the living conditions you just saw in the video clip, and the subsequent social consequences. Incredibly, the Glasgow metropolitan area has as many teenage gangs as the London metropolitan area, which has 7 times the population. <br /> <br />I thought I knew everything there was to know about Glasgow and it's problems, until last weekend when I had to go into the city's notorious Parkhead area (which I think is the area in the video at the 1:30 mark but I'm not 100% sure) to make use of the retail park there. Now the houses, as badly in disrepair as they were, didn't particularly shock me - hey, seen them before. But what I hadn't really been paying attention to before, was the local people and the toll their environment is taking on them. It was actually, physically noticeable. I'm 5 foot 9 - which I don't consider "tall" for an adult male. So you can imagine that when there are all these men in their late teens/early 20s, and not all but a lot of them are only hovering around the 5-foot mark, it makes me wonder. And you can see it in their facial features as well. Just by looking at them, you can <span style="font-weight: bold">tell</span> their gene pools are seriously, pitifully deficient. The great great grandsons of the city's famed shipbuilders look as if tying their laces is a big ask. I shudder to think what another 3 or 4 generations of poor quality breeding is going to do to the city - assuming there isn't some drastic eugenics program in the near future - it might come to that, actually.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Kris94</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:05 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">2 words for the goverment: HATE U</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Roxas_XIII</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:16 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">IF I were that kid's dad, I would follow him to school in a tinted car and a loaded shotgun, and makes sure nobody screws with him again.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>TLPG</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:56 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Odin wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">I've just had a thought. I wonder if some kind of public humiliation of petty criminals and juvenile delinquents would be an effective deterrent. The desire to avoid humiliation and shame is an extremely powerful force, especially for socially conscious teens and young adults. Publicly humiliating a teen delinquent could be much more effective in keeping that teen from breaking the law again then a couple months in jail.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I don't think so, Odin - because nowadays (thanks to the garbage that's on TV) they would actually see that as fun! Perverse I know, but that's what I think the reaction will be. It's hard to humiliate and shame nowadays. <br /> <br />Jail though isn't the answer. The better way to go is enforce community service. Stop them from having any free time (that's where the problem is), and commit them to things that they MUST do. And if they don't do it send them into a detention centre of sorts instead of a jail - and in ISOLATION.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>SilverProteus</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:11 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">What a world we live in. <img src="modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt="Rolling Eyes" border="0" /></span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Izaak</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:37 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Not sure how effective it might be there Odin. Lawbreakers of that kind tend to be some pretty deadbeat dropkicks. <br /> <br />There is a show here called Motorway Patrol (imported TV series from New Zealand.) I remember seeing one episode where they chased some guy in a high powered car at up to 190Kms/hour and he ended up running a red light before pulling over. When he has the camera in his face he actually had the gall to say "Hey ladies, you've seen the car. If recognise me, give me a holler!" <br /> <br />There are some dropkicks out there in which getting picked up by the police is actually a badge of honour. The common slang of 'pig' is not without motive. <br /> <br />On to the OP, my sympathies go out to the family and to the young man in question. It's a shame when the police and courts can no longer fulfill their brief of protecting the innocent and administering justice to the guilty.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Odin</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:31 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">I've just had a thought. I wonder if some kind of public humiliation of petty criminals and juvenile delinquents would be an effective deterrent. The desire to avoid humiliation and shame is an extremely powerful force, especially for socially conscious teens and young adults. Publicly humiliating a teen delinquent could be much more effective in keeping that teen from breaking the law again then a couple months in jail.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Odin</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:17 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>The_Cucumber wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Studies have shown that consistency in punishment is the most effective at reducing crime (strangely the severity of punishment seems to have little effect). <br /> <br />I do find it strange that the reasoning behind not punishing them is that they were already under supervision for previous charges. In a lot of states in the U.S. laws are extremely harsh on repeat offenders (sometimes too much so).</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I wonder if that's the reason the crime rate is so high here in the US. The US has a highly decentralized common law system that gives individual judges and district attorneys a huge amount of say on what the sentence is on a case-to-case basis. One judge might give you 5 years for a manslaughter conviction while another judge would give you 20 years for the same crime. <br /> <br />Also, IMO if sentences are too harsh they may actually cause more crime as a result of criminals doing all they can to avoid getting caught.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>DW_a_mom</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:24 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">This particular incident does seem to have been inappropriately handled, but to all those saying lower the age for treating criminals as adults is the right answer, I say ... <br /> <br />Be careful what you wish for. <br /> <br />I have read many cases where someone is punished too harshly, because of the ways the laws are written. It simply is impossible to get at the heart of all the different reasons bad things can happen in laws that must be written in black and white. <br /> <br />Would you prefer those making innocent and relatively harmless mistakes in jail, when they shouldn't be, or criminals free when they shouldn't be? It's going to be one or the other, because no laws can be written to be absolutely perfect for every situation. I tend to figure it is easy to fall into the former group, and so prefer a little leniency in the laws, least an unfair imprisonment happen to me or a loved one. <br /> <br />In this one case, the boys should be in a juvenile center, and not just "supervised."</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>TLPG</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:35 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">This is what's wrong with the NT world - this tolerance of physical bullying (or any bullying for that matter). <br /> <br />I sympathise to a degree with regards to the general point about fighting back on the terms of the other - but that doesn't make it right if it's physical. Psychologically I'll bully in retaliation to an attack on me - and these issues with law or any other remedy is the reason. <br /> <br />It would be a whole lot easier though if the laws were in place to put a stop to this nonsense. I feel for the boy - and teenagers who engage in that sort of behaviour do need to be punished. I think the boy has a civil case and a very strong one because he has causation (the fear of going outside as a result of the teen bullies actions). Get the parents of the bullies before a civil court!</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Chibi_Neko</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:32 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>m91 wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />The stupid British government doesn't realise that even if someone is under 16, they are still old enough to take responsibility for their actions.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Here in Canada the young offender's act is for people 18 and under, it really should be 13 and under.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>m91</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:43 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">The governments in all these developed countries are too soft. They don't want the criminals to suffer at their hands, so they let innocent people suffer at the hands of criminals instead as it's CLEARLY right to let innocent people suffer. (sarcasm). <br /> <br />Those thugs should really get the death penalty, as they are useless idiots who would spend their whole life going round causing trouble, and they will never do anything positive for the society. <br /> <br />The stupid British government doesn't realise that even if someone is under 16, they are still old enough to take responsibility for their actions.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>The_Cucumber</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:45 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">The criminals should defiantly be punished. Studies have shown that consistency in punishment is the most effective at reducing crime (strangely the severity of punishment seems to have little effect). <br /> <br />I do find it strange that the reasoning behind not punishing them is that they were already under supervision for previous charges. In a lot of states in the U.S. laws are extremely harsh on repeat offenders (sometimes too much so).</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> </table>
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