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[quote="Sophist"]In response to that thread: using case studies is good and well. It's a respected form of qualitative research. HOWEVER, it doesn't hold the same weight as quantitative research. No one should use a single case study, or even a handful, as the only supporting evidence. I haven't read the original article, however, it sounded like this wasn't even a case study but anecdotal evidence (i.e., apples and oranges). Anecdotal evidence, while undoubtedly valuable in qualitative research, is not as highly regarded as quantitative research because with it comes the inherent flaws of human judgment and having one's own agenda and biases. Ideally, a case study should be performed by an outside experimenter unrelated to the subject. They should collect information on a variety of areas regarding the person's life (that varies according to the purpose of the case study). Also, performing a quantitative study on chelation is certainly possible, although probably still unethical (though not for the reasons that person espouses), considering there is not enough strong evidence (evidence showing consistently and considerably higher heavy metal levels in the serum) to support taking the risk going through chelation for several years. Say goodbye to the experimental group's livers! :roll: The scientific reason that chelation should not be supported is because, since it hasn't been studied in large numbers in relation to autism, THERE IS NO WAY TO PREDICT THE RISKS. And science sticks as strongly to the motto "Do no harm" just as much as doctors do (well, ideally ;) ). It doesn't matter if chelation is the next miracle drug that gives long life and increases fertility! It hasn't been tested, the evidence supports that there's too much of a risk to do any sort of longitudinal study, and that's that. QED. And any person who supports it not only is being a bad layman scientist, but is also putting their child's life at risk. The unknown is always a risk, it doesn't matter how many anecdotes you've heard to the contrary. As Stalin put it, "A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic" -- meaning that despite that we humans should know better, we constantly trust a single anecdote over mounds of numerical evidence to the contrary. Why? Because usually the single anecdote is more emotionally moving than a group of numbers. Which is why, as humans, we need to be aware of this tendency of ours and distrust our own trust in the Anecdote. Do people want to gamble with their children's lives? Because this treatment has the potential for real harm-- and I'm not talking about the kids who were overdosed or given the wrong treatment. I'm talking about performing chelation over an extended period of time, taxing the liver, and using the treatment in a way in which is was NOT DESIGNED. It's the liver that gets to process all the heavy metals that the treatment flushes from the body. And you run the risk of cirrhosis, cancer, etc., just the same as you do with alcohol and other medications that are hard on the liver. We're not talking a one or two-time dose. Like the person in that post mentioned, we're talking potentially YEARS. So what'll they have? They'll still have autistic kids, only later down the line, they'll also get the joy of having their children put on transplant lists. :evil: Sorry for posting all this here. Preaching to the choir, I know. But my IP for some reason is blocked on Wiki... :?[/quote]
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LeKiwi
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:23 pm
Post subject:
Do a search for what aspartame is made up of, what the body breaks those things down into, and how it utilises them and they affect cell structure etc.
beau99
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:20 pm
Post subject:
LeKiwi wrote:
Beau, I'm sorry but in this case you're arguing with chemistry. There is no debate to be had - the scientific fact is indisputable.
How am I?
LeKiwi
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:17 pm
Post subject:
Satellite wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
Everyone's allergic because it's a noxious, toxic substance. But that's just chemistry and not worth getting into... a different thread, perhaps.
"Allergic" as in "causes immediate physical reaction" is quite different from "may cause something with years of exposure", so I wouldn't say "everyone's allergic".
True, and I doubt most people have an immediate immune response as is required in true allergies. But considering how toxic it is and that a single exposure is enough to cause problems or start them off in every person - noticeable or not - it's something to be avoided. I take it you're phenylketonuric??
Anyway, another thread.
Satellite
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:14 pm
Post subject:
LeKiwi wrote:
Everyone's allergic because it's a noxious, toxic substance. But that's just chemistry and not worth getting into... a different thread, perhaps.
"Allergic" as in "causes immediate physical reaction" is quite different from "may cause something with years of exposure", so I wouldn't say "everyone's allergic".
LeKiwi
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:10 pm
Post subject:
Everyone's allergic because it's a noxious, toxic substance. But that's just chemistry and not worth getting into... a different thread, perhaps.
Satellite
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:59 pm
Post subject:
beau99 wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
beau99 wrote:
zendell wrote:
beau99 wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
That chemical sweetener aspartame (yeah, the noxious carcinogen)... that was never developed as a sweetener, it was developed as an animal poison. People eat it.
Uh. Nobody's gotten cancer from it.
idk about cancer but it put some holes in the brains of rats they tested it on
Yeah, but rats aren't human beings.
What's toxic to one organism may or may not be toxic to another.
So the fact that its components are phenylalanine, methanol and aspartic acid, and it breaks down into formeldehyde and formic acid, alongside other components
Which are then expelled from the body as waste products.
Not to mention that aspartic acid is found naturally in most meat and some vegetable sources.
Not commenting on whether aspartame is toxic or not, but I just have to add that some people (myself and half my family included) are allergic to aspartame and/or acesulfame K. It's frustrating that it sometimes feels like they're everywhere these days.
Though, I don't think aspartame has much to do with the topic of this thread...
LeKiwi
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:51 pm
Post subject:
Beau, I'm sorry but in this case you're arguing with chemistry. There is no debate to be had - the scientific fact is indisputable.
beau99
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:49 pm
Post subject:
LeKiwi wrote:
beau99 wrote:
zendell wrote:
beau99 wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
That chemical sweetener aspartame (yeah, the noxious carcinogen)... that was never developed as a sweetener, it was developed as an animal poison. People eat it.
Uh. Nobody's gotten cancer from it.
idk about cancer but it put some holes in the brains of rats they tested it on
Yeah, but rats aren't human beings.
What's toxic to one organism may or may not be toxic to another.
So the fact that its components are phenylalanine, methanol and aspartic acid, and it breaks down into formeldehyde and formic acid, alongside other components
Which are then expelled from the body as waste products.
Not to mention that aspartic acid is found naturally in most meat and some vegetable sources.
Pepperfire
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:46 pm
Post subject:
LeKiwi wrote:
Pepperfire wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
I think there could well be some merit to the chelation thing for some people, but you would have to be extremely careful about who you chose to carry out the treatment, and that you weren't going to end up depleting the child of too many other metals the body DOES need... constant tests etc (which could be traumatic too). I dunno - I'm sure it's well-intentioned but I certainly wouldn't think it would be for everyone.
Oh now, you're not serious... vaccination is not ok, but chelation is???
I don't know enough about the drugs/substances involved to comment to be honest; I was more commenting that from what I understand of it (one of several substances is given to the child, that forces the body to excrete metals lodged in the body, but it does carry risks, and that it's usually used in cases of lead or mercury poisoning - please please please correct me I'm wrong!) it could be feasible for a few children where heavy metal poisoning could be implicated as a possibility alongside.
The problem is not in using chelation therapy to treat children who are suffering from heavy metal poisoning, the problem is in using it willy nilly on autistic children. It has a bad habit of killing them!
I gotta kick out of this study. It counters the use of chelation on children as dangerous and RECOMMENDS vaccinating children, especially autistic ones.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139
Quote:
Implications
There are several important implications of this study. First, our study adds additional evidence deriving from a large, population-based survey that PDDs are one of the most common developmental disorders in young children. With a prevalence of 0.6% to 0.7%, the service implications are straightforward. Second, as in other recent studies, factors such as broadening of diagnostic criteria, improved awareness about the disorder, changes in official social and educational policies, and improved access to services are certainly the primary driving force underlying the increasing prevalence figures.7 Yet, the possibility that a real change in the incidence could have occurred as well cannot be definitely ruled out from existing data. Third, our findings clearly failed to detect any relationship between thimerosal exposure and rates of PDDs. These findings concur with those from other similar ecological investigations34, 35 and of more controlled epidemiological studies.25, 38 Previous negative studies, especially those conducted in European countries, have sometimes been criticized on the account that either the rates of PDDs were not as high as those in North America, that the cumulative exposure to thimerosal was much lower than that attained in the United States in the 1990s, or both. This study avoids both pitfalls and is, therefore, very informative for the North American public. In addition, the rate of exposure varied from nil to very high levels of vaccine-derived ethylmercury, allowing us to test for effects along the full range of exposure and to detect possible threshold effects as well. All of the results were negative. Fourth, as in previous studies,25 no effect of MMR vaccine could be detected on the risk of PDD. The trends went in opposite directions, making it unlikely that even small effects applying to a small subset of children would exist. Furthermore, this study added new evidence suggesting that the 2-MMR dose schedule before age 2 years also had no impact on rates of PDD. Fifth, parents of children with PDD and the general public should be made aware of the consistency of negative studies on the 2 hypotheses linking risk of autism and immunizations.
Children with autism and their younger unaffected siblings should be vaccinated. Unvaccinated children are at much higher risk of contracting measles and suffering from its sometimes severe or lethal complications.71 There is no evidence for an epidemiological association between ethylmercury and autism and no scientific basis for using chelation therapies, which can be dangerous. Decreasing MMR uptake in the British isles has led to more frequent measles outbreaks of greater magnitude27 and to children's deaths.72 Findings of negative studies are, indeed, more difficult to convey, but, here, the evidence lies in the striking convergence of studies accumulated by different groups, with different designs and in different places.
LeKiwi
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:14 pm
Post subject:
Pepperfire wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
I think there could well be some merit to the chelation thing for some people, but you would have to be extremely careful about who you chose to carry out the treatment, and that you weren't going to end up depleting the child of too many other metals the body DOES need... constant tests etc (which could be traumatic too). I dunno - I'm sure it's well-intentioned but I certainly wouldn't think it would be for everyone.
Oh now, you're not serious... vaccination is not ok, but chelation is???
I don't know enough about the drugs/substances involved to comment to be honest; I was more commenting that from what I understand of it (one of several substances is given to the child, that forces the body to excrete metals lodged in the body, but it does carry risks, and that it's usually used in cases of lead or mercury poisoning - please please please correct me I'm wrong!) it could be feasible for a few children where heavy metal poisoning could be implicated as a possibility alongside.
Pepperfire
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:00 pm
Post subject:
LeKiwi wrote:
I think there could well be some merit to the chelation thing for some people, but you would have to be extremely careful about who you chose to carry out the treatment, and that you weren't going to end up depleting the child of too many other metals the body DOES need... constant tests etc (which could be traumatic too). I dunno - I'm sure it's well-intentioned but I certainly wouldn't think it would be for everyone.
Oh now, you're not serious... vaccination is not ok, but chelation is???
LeKiwi
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:37 pm
Post subject:
I think there could well be some merit to the chelation thing for some people, but you would have to be extremely careful about who you chose to carry out the treatment, and that you weren't going to end up depleting the child of too many other metals the body DOES need... constant tests etc (which could be traumatic too). I dunno - I'm sure it's well-intentioned but I certainly wouldn't think it would be for everyone.
Pepperfire
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:01 am
Post subject:
CockneyRebel wrote:
I think that the parents who use that treatment on their autistic children might be deliberately trying to kill them. I don't think that they want them to live, anymore.
Now there is an interesting insight, Sid. How does one simply turn a blind eye to the fact that chelations have indeed killed children and then put them onto their children... it doesn't make sense to me.
Course, I know only what I've learned the last couple of days about it, but it's creepy.
CockneyRebel
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:54 am
Post subject:
I think that the parents who use that treatment on their autistic children might be deliberately trying to kill them. I don't think that they want them to live, anymore.
LeKiwi
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:42 am
Post subject:
beau99 wrote:
zendell wrote:
beau99 wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
That chemical sweetener aspartame (yeah, the noxious carcinogen)... that was never developed as a sweetener, it was developed as an animal poison. People eat it.
Uh. Nobody's gotten cancer from it.
idk about cancer but it put some holes in the brains of rats they tested it on
Yeah, but rats aren't human beings.
What's toxic to one organism may or may not be toxic to another.
So the fact that its components are phenylalanine, methanol and aspartic acid, and it breaks down into formeldehyde and formic acid, alongside other components... it also has over 92 registered symptoms of its poisoning listed with the FDA. It's carcinogenic, noxious, and dangerous, and to deny it would be to deny basic chemistry.
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