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[quote="Sophist"][quote="zendell"]Randomized, double-blind, controlled study finds chelation with oral DMSA is safe and effective for treating autism: http://www.autism.com/danwebcast/presentations/anaheim/adams.pdf [/quote] I have an interest in immunology and oxidation/methylation in the autism spectrum. However, upon reading through that article (which seems like an abbreviated report of the original article), I'd have to say that there is a potential extreme bias of the experimenters in that study. [b]My Critique, Point by Point:[/b] 1) This is supposed to be a double-blind study, implying that there is a control group. Yet in this article, they report no results on the controls. Therefore, the reader is unable to contrast and compare results between the two groups. 2) It gives no indication as per the ages of the participating children nor a listing of other medicinal and nonmedicinal treatments these children may or may not be receiving. Various medications do have effects on the body's oxidation. I would assume the control group was required to be medication-free. Also, if any were receiving behavioral treatments, this went unanswered. Any of these factors could be playing a part: natural development with age, medication, or other treatment plans which are taking place concurrently or prior to the study. 3) It also says this study is supposed to be a double-blind, but they don't mention how this takes place. It's probably not all that hard to tell the autistic kids from the nonautistic; were the experimenters aware of this so that it affected their judgment? Or was it truly a double-blind, where the lab technicians did the analysis separately from the researchers who were collecting and then analyzing the larger data sets? It doesn't say. So this does a poor job of outlining the methodology so that this study could be replicated in future. No single study does a theory make: sets of studies are needed because, even if a study's design is sound, every once in awhile you're still going to receive a false positive result just by the laws of probability. 4) There is no mention as to how the participants were recruited and how they were chosen to take part. Medical establishments? Autism Speaks? CAN? Local churches? Where they all given the ADOS and any child who tested in the autism range was included? This is important because, without knowing WHERE the participants came from, there's no way to accurately judge that this was an unbiased sample. 5) 80 began the study, only 40 finished. Even though this is enough to resemble some sort of statistical normal distribution, 40 is still a very small number for these researchers to recommend glutathione as a treatment for autism. 6) It treats the fact that glutathione is designed as a heavy metal eliminator as a surprise ("What??? It actually [i]chelates[/i]? Well shut my mouth..."). And without reporting the levels seen in the controls as far as elimination levels, it makes it seem as though only autism has such levels and, low and behold, glutathione is a chelator. It's a bit of tricky writing, implying that these levels are seen in autism alone. 7) The results of the study were compared to both parent impressions (general interview as well as ATEC) as well as the ADOS. I have two issues with this: a) yes, parents should be asked of their opinions; however, in such a study, more objective measures should be used and biased opinions avoided. The ADOS, I have personally learned, is an adequate tool for diagnosis of Autistic Disorder and PDD-NOS in young children. However, it is a poor tool for differentiating WITHIN the spectrum. Therefore, it should not have been used to detect a change in severity, especially when the shifts in severity were so subtle. 8[i][/i]) And with the ADOS, I would've liked to know who performed the first and the second ADOS. Were they the same people, potentially introducing bias? Or different people who might score the same child slightly differently? 9) Correlation between excretion levels and ADOS: This to me spoke MOUNTAINS. The most significant correlation between excretion levels and ADOS scores following the first dose was 0.36. For a little background on correlations, here are the ratings of correlations: 0.0-0.2 = no correlation 0.2-0.4 = low correlation (unlikely) 0.5-0.7 = moderate correlation 0.8-1.0 = high correlation These occur in both positive and negative ranges, with negative numbers indicating a negative (or inverse) correlation. Most researchers ignore any correlations that aren't moderate or higher and view low correlations with suspicion. Following the 9th dose, the highest correlation is 0.35 (another low correlation). Yet these results are espoused as being significant. 10) I have a big issue that the ADOS was not given BEFORE starting the study, so as to gather a baseline score before applying the treatment. Without a baseline, it is very difficult to compare the other two ADOS scores to each other. 11) I take issue with a study that uses a quote to make its conclusions-- a quote nonetheless originated by the leading researcher in this study: "Finding lead or mercury in an autism victim is like finding a bullet in a homicide victim-- further investigation needed for 100% certainty, but in both cases it is highly likely that one caused the other" (Adams, 2007). Why is this a problem? Well, first off, it's clear that Adams has already made up his mind before even performing this study, which makes him a prime candidate for accidental or intentional experimenter bias. He also proposes that finding lead or mercury in autism is the guilty bullet having caused the conditions; and if that is his logic, then every child in their study should've been a "homicide victim" since every person, autistic or not, has mercury and lead in his/her body. On the same note of logic, that would also imply every person is autistic. :roll: 12) Before performing further replication studies, the researchers of this study are already recommending longer treatments for those whose lead levels were still "high". I.e., they're recommending a treatment before having tested whether it's sound and relatively risk-free but AT THE SAME TIME they continue to state that more research is needed before the treatment should be recommended. Double-talk. 13) From a single study, they have concluded there are no adverse side effects on general health. 14) Despite the low correlations, they even [b]bolded[/b] their conclusions that higher excretion decreased severity as measured by the ADOS, using techniques like bolding or highlighting to make their point stick despite that it's a weak one. 15) Their final conclusions stated, "Glutathione, lead, and mercury are linked to severity in autism, and to improvement due to DMSA." This statement is false. There was no evidence in this study proffered that linked higher mercury and lead levels to their autism participants. And even if there were, the authors have automatically jumped that extra step and assumed correlation is equivalent to causation. (Who knows, if there are higher levels, it could be very well that autism is the CAUSE of higher levels of mercury and lead, rather than the reverse.) 16) The article gives no indication as to having been published in a peer-reviewed journal. I assume this means it hasn't been published except online by websites who support the research. I don't mean to say that the only place for publication is in respected journals, no. What is important is the peer-reviewed process. So there is no such indication. In essence, this was a poor study, with researchers who seem to have made up their minds before performing the research and whose bias, either accidentally or intentionally, affected the design of the study. Which is unfortunate. These are important questions that should have more definitive answers. Poor research only holds back the study of the autism spectrum. :?[/quote]
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LeKiwi
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:23 pm
Post subject:
Do a search for what aspartame is made up of, what the body breaks those things down into, and how it utilises them and they affect cell structure etc.
beau99
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:20 pm
Post subject:
LeKiwi wrote:
Beau, I'm sorry but in this case you're arguing with chemistry. There is no debate to be had - the scientific fact is indisputable.
How am I?
LeKiwi
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:17 pm
Post subject:
Satellite wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
Everyone's allergic because it's a noxious, toxic substance. But that's just chemistry and not worth getting into... a different thread, perhaps.
"Allergic" as in "causes immediate physical reaction" is quite different from "may cause something with years of exposure", so I wouldn't say "everyone's allergic".
True, and I doubt most people have an immediate immune response as is required in true allergies. But considering how toxic it is and that a single exposure is enough to cause problems or start them off in every person - noticeable or not - it's something to be avoided. I take it you're phenylketonuric??
Anyway, another thread.
Satellite
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:14 pm
Post subject:
LeKiwi wrote:
Everyone's allergic because it's a noxious, toxic substance. But that's just chemistry and not worth getting into... a different thread, perhaps.
"Allergic" as in "causes immediate physical reaction" is quite different from "may cause something with years of exposure", so I wouldn't say "everyone's allergic".
LeKiwi
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:10 pm
Post subject:
Everyone's allergic because it's a noxious, toxic substance. But that's just chemistry and not worth getting into... a different thread, perhaps.
Satellite
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:59 pm
Post subject:
beau99 wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
beau99 wrote:
zendell wrote:
beau99 wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
That chemical sweetener aspartame (yeah, the noxious carcinogen)... that was never developed as a sweetener, it was developed as an animal poison. People eat it.
Uh. Nobody's gotten cancer from it.
idk about cancer but it put some holes in the brains of rats they tested it on
Yeah, but rats aren't human beings.
What's toxic to one organism may or may not be toxic to another.
So the fact that its components are phenylalanine, methanol and aspartic acid, and it breaks down into formeldehyde and formic acid, alongside other components
Which are then expelled from the body as waste products.
Not to mention that aspartic acid is found naturally in most meat and some vegetable sources.
Not commenting on whether aspartame is toxic or not, but I just have to add that some people (myself and half my family included) are allergic to aspartame and/or acesulfame K. It's frustrating that it sometimes feels like they're everywhere these days.
Though, I don't think aspartame has much to do with the topic of this thread...
LeKiwi
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:51 pm
Post subject:
Beau, I'm sorry but in this case you're arguing with chemistry. There is no debate to be had - the scientific fact is indisputable.
beau99
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:49 pm
Post subject:
LeKiwi wrote:
beau99 wrote:
zendell wrote:
beau99 wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
That chemical sweetener aspartame (yeah, the noxious carcinogen)... that was never developed as a sweetener, it was developed as an animal poison. People eat it.
Uh. Nobody's gotten cancer from it.
idk about cancer but it put some holes in the brains of rats they tested it on
Yeah, but rats aren't human beings.
What's toxic to one organism may or may not be toxic to another.
So the fact that its components are phenylalanine, methanol and aspartic acid, and it breaks down into formeldehyde and formic acid, alongside other components
Which are then expelled from the body as waste products.
Not to mention that aspartic acid is found naturally in most meat and some vegetable sources.
Pepperfire
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:46 pm
Post subject:
LeKiwi wrote:
Pepperfire wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
I think there could well be some merit to the chelation thing for some people, but you would have to be extremely careful about who you chose to carry out the treatment, and that you weren't going to end up depleting the child of too many other metals the body DOES need... constant tests etc (which could be traumatic too). I dunno - I'm sure it's well-intentioned but I certainly wouldn't think it would be for everyone.
Oh now, you're not serious... vaccination is not ok, but chelation is???
I don't know enough about the drugs/substances involved to comment to be honest; I was more commenting that from what I understand of it (one of several substances is given to the child, that forces the body to excrete metals lodged in the body, but it does carry risks, and that it's usually used in cases of lead or mercury poisoning - please please please correct me I'm wrong!) it could be feasible for a few children where heavy metal poisoning could be implicated as a possibility alongside.
The problem is not in using chelation therapy to treat children who are suffering from heavy metal poisoning, the problem is in using it willy nilly on autistic children. It has a bad habit of killing them!
I gotta kick out of this study. It counters the use of chelation on children as dangerous and RECOMMENDS vaccinating children, especially autistic ones.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139
Quote:
Implications
There are several important implications of this study. First, our study adds additional evidence deriving from a large, population-based survey that PDDs are one of the most common developmental disorders in young children. With a prevalence of 0.6% to 0.7%, the service implications are straightforward. Second, as in other recent studies, factors such as broadening of diagnostic criteria, improved awareness about the disorder, changes in official social and educational policies, and improved access to services are certainly the primary driving force underlying the increasing prevalence figures.7 Yet, the possibility that a real change in the incidence could have occurred as well cannot be definitely ruled out from existing data. Third, our findings clearly failed to detect any relationship between thimerosal exposure and rates of PDDs. These findings concur with those from other similar ecological investigations34, 35 and of more controlled epidemiological studies.25, 38 Previous negative studies, especially those conducted in European countries, have sometimes been criticized on the account that either the rates of PDDs were not as high as those in North America, that the cumulative exposure to thimerosal was much lower than that attained in the United States in the 1990s, or both. This study avoids both pitfalls and is, therefore, very informative for the North American public. In addition, the rate of exposure varied from nil to very high levels of vaccine-derived ethylmercury, allowing us to test for effects along the full range of exposure and to detect possible threshold effects as well. All of the results were negative. Fourth, as in previous studies,25 no effect of MMR vaccine could be detected on the risk of PDD. The trends went in opposite directions, making it unlikely that even small effects applying to a small subset of children would exist. Furthermore, this study added new evidence suggesting that the 2-MMR dose schedule before age 2 years also had no impact on rates of PDD. Fifth, parents of children with PDD and the general public should be made aware of the consistency of negative studies on the 2 hypotheses linking risk of autism and immunizations.
Children with autism and their younger unaffected siblings should be vaccinated. Unvaccinated children are at much higher risk of contracting measles and suffering from its sometimes severe or lethal complications.71 There is no evidence for an epidemiological association between ethylmercury and autism and no scientific basis for using chelation therapies, which can be dangerous. Decreasing MMR uptake in the British isles has led to more frequent measles outbreaks of greater magnitude27 and to children's deaths.72 Findings of negative studies are, indeed, more difficult to convey, but, here, the evidence lies in the striking convergence of studies accumulated by different groups, with different designs and in different places.
LeKiwi
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:14 pm
Post subject:
Pepperfire wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
I think there could well be some merit to the chelation thing for some people, but you would have to be extremely careful about who you chose to carry out the treatment, and that you weren't going to end up depleting the child of too many other metals the body DOES need... constant tests etc (which could be traumatic too). I dunno - I'm sure it's well-intentioned but I certainly wouldn't think it would be for everyone.
Oh now, you're not serious... vaccination is not ok, but chelation is???
I don't know enough about the drugs/substances involved to comment to be honest; I was more commenting that from what I understand of it (one of several substances is given to the child, that forces the body to excrete metals lodged in the body, but it does carry risks, and that it's usually used in cases of lead or mercury poisoning - please please please correct me I'm wrong!) it could be feasible for a few children where heavy metal poisoning could be implicated as a possibility alongside.
Pepperfire
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:00 pm
Post subject:
LeKiwi wrote:
I think there could well be some merit to the chelation thing for some people, but you would have to be extremely careful about who you chose to carry out the treatment, and that you weren't going to end up depleting the child of too many other metals the body DOES need... constant tests etc (which could be traumatic too). I dunno - I'm sure it's well-intentioned but I certainly wouldn't think it would be for everyone.
Oh now, you're not serious... vaccination is not ok, but chelation is???
LeKiwi
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:37 pm
Post subject:
I think there could well be some merit to the chelation thing for some people, but you would have to be extremely careful about who you chose to carry out the treatment, and that you weren't going to end up depleting the child of too many other metals the body DOES need... constant tests etc (which could be traumatic too). I dunno - I'm sure it's well-intentioned but I certainly wouldn't think it would be for everyone.
Pepperfire
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:01 am
Post subject:
CockneyRebel wrote:
I think that the parents who use that treatment on their autistic children might be deliberately trying to kill them. I don't think that they want them to live, anymore.
Now there is an interesting insight, Sid. How does one simply turn a blind eye to the fact that chelations have indeed killed children and then put them onto their children... it doesn't make sense to me.
Course, I know only what I've learned the last couple of days about it, but it's creepy.
CockneyRebel
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:54 am
Post subject:
I think that the parents who use that treatment on their autistic children might be deliberately trying to kill them. I don't think that they want them to live, anymore.
LeKiwi
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:42 am
Post subject:
beau99 wrote:
zendell wrote:
beau99 wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
That chemical sweetener aspartame (yeah, the noxious carcinogen)... that was never developed as a sweetener, it was developed as an animal poison. People eat it.
Uh. Nobody's gotten cancer from it.
idk about cancer but it put some holes in the brains of rats they tested it on
Yeah, but rats aren't human beings.
What's toxic to one organism may or may not be toxic to another.
So the fact that its components are phenylalanine, methanol and aspartic acid, and it breaks down into formeldehyde and formic acid, alongside other components... it also has over 92 registered symptoms of its poisoning listed with the FDA. It's carcinogenic, noxious, and dangerous, and to deny it would be to deny basic chemistry.
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