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[quote="zghost"][quote]I would be looking at an Atlantic coast location (USA)[/quote] I would suggest not coastal in that area, hurricanes like it too much. Belive me, they're NOT fun to deal with. I'd suggest maybe a couple hundred miles inland. But I guess if you really love the coast, give it a try. I think it sounds like a great idea over all.[/quote]
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<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="100%" class="forumline"> <tr> <th class="thCornerL" width="22%" height="26">Author</th> <th class="thCornerR">Message</th> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>AgentPalpatine</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://wrongplanet.cachefly.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 1:22 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Aye.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Inventor</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://wrongplanet.cachefly.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 12:52 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">I Second the motion from archetype, all in favor say Aye.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>archetype</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://wrongplanet.cachefly.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:55 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Hi Inventor; <br /> <br />There's only people enough for one community. So whatever community goes up first, requires 100% support. Creating more than one community would use too many resources; all resources are needed for the initial community. Deliberacy in creating only one, so there is only one to support and for everyone to add their contributions to. <br /> <br />So, onward we all go. <br /> <br />I'm going to be in, regardless. This is the first and only community happening. You've done the research, the thinking, and the work to create a viable Aspivilla. Everything else is more talking. I will always support 'cooperative action now' over 'futher endless debative discussion forever'. <br /> <br />In my publishing a monthly arts periodical, there came a time to 'just do it'. So, I slapped together the best first issue I could (which was very excellent for what it need to do) ... and then the monthly publication became real. That makes the difference - that it is actually real. <br /> <br />So the community will never exist until it is real. I am familiar with and see the importance of that. <br /> <br />Ergo; make the community real. Anyway, anyhow. Once real, it becomes real, and is a real force in the world that really exists... <br /> <br /><span style="font-weight: bold">... so there's no point in continuing to endlessly discuss the prospects of an Aspie community; it's already real.</span> <br /> <br />Now, we can all get about to contributing to the real community. <br /> <br />Much talk about a real community is on other places, like AFF. I migt be banned there, I'm not sure, because I posted - in reply to another post about how AFF had deep problems - that Gareth, the founder of AFF is, in fact, <span style="font-style: italic">the</span> deep problem, and why. He might not have taken kindly to that. <br /> <br />But, once a real community goes up, those who are actually really interested in a community and actually have something real to contribute, will contribute to the real community that exists and can be contributed to. <br /> <br />My support is 100% behind the success of the <span style="font-style: italic">AspieTown 'Real Grande' S.W.</span> <br /> <br />There are too many factors for the need for other communities, but none can take from the precious resources of another. The initial community needs all support and resources behind it. I will put my support and contributions behind it. <br /> <br />This thread can now be closed, because both you and I, Inventor - and the others who are with you already, agree that this community will happen. We are both monolithic in the face of reality. <br /> <br />This thread can now be closed because there is no doubt that this community will exist. This thread is entitled 'Working together', and was a disussion about why and how to begin working together. But, now, working together already exists. So this thread, and its title are done ... but can be used for reference. <br /> <br />A new thread is now appropriate. Both Inventor and Archetype change reality. There are some unknown amount more who will do this, as well. So the thread which is now appropriate is one which speaks of the community that will exist. I will begin this new topic with a very specific title "First Aspie Community goes up in Autumn, 2008" - unless there's some better ideas for a topic title.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Inventor</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://wrongplanet.cachefly.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:34 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">The Rio Grande has set water sharing rights under international treaty. The only land worth having is 1000 foot along the bank, near flat, farmed since 1200 AD, till recently. The water right comes with the land, and is harvestable from all the water rights down stream. So there will be water, but quality is the issue that killed farming. <br /> <br />The land needs several things, first cleared of Salt Cedar, then it needs drainage laid to five foot. Salt has built up, higher than river water. The first thing to do is flood the land, and let salty river water flush even saltier soil. laser leveled fields, diked, let sections be flooded, and then flush with fresh water. This may use up a year's water right. <br /> <br />It will get the salt content down to farmable, and drip irrigation with distilled water, empty water, will continue to leech salts from the land. Plants need both air and water, five foot for a root zone, with no standing water, and no saline pockets. The latest in irrigation is subsurface. A foot down, leaky pipes buried. The field can be disked, harrowed, and leveled, above it, then turn on the water, and set plants in the wet spots. This uses the least water, causes no surface salt buildup from evaporating water, and as it moves down to the drains, it picks up salts, and drains them away. <br /> <br />When the drains are not working as drains, they are letting air into the soil. Some use compressed air to flood the soil with mostly Nitrogen from below, and air flush other gasses caused by plants, and decaying organic matter. Farming is mostly growing healthy roots. <br /> <br />All the plastic pipe needed is for sale in Mexico. <br /> <br />A three person crew can make 600 adobe blocks a day. A small house takes 3,000 to 5,000. Building goes a bit faster, at 1,000 blocks a day. A small house has a people month in the shell. With delivered blocks, three people can build five house shells in a month. <br /> <br />Water starts with a large plastic tank, and pure water delivered. Many people live this way. Water use per person is what you will pay for, but flush toilets and showers come right after coffee water. A solar still is an adobe form, two 40' x 100' sheets of plastic, which forms a tank, with the evaporate running into a second partition. This is good enough for irrigation and bathing, but I would filter to make coffee. Where drinking water is 500 ppm dissolved solids, distilled is 20 ppm. <br /> <br />It leaves the salt behind, but the whole system, the fresh side, is a culture dish, so chlorine, or a filter. <br /> <br />A solar still is fast and low cost. Storing enough fresh water to flood a field is another plastic issue. It takes a lot at once. Fields can be diked in small sections, washed one at a time. Once they are cleared of salt, they use much less water. <br /> <br />The houses will have two drain systems, black to a septic system, and gray to a filter system. It makes good irrigation water. The houses are close to the road, for power and phone. It will have a dual water system, by truck to start, then distilled and filtered. People are basicly getting first use of irrigation water. <br /> <br />I would want to plow and rinse the soil several times before laying permanate subsoil irrigation. No deep plowing after that. Rinse, turn, rinse, turn, till fresh and salt free. Washing mud by the acre takes some thought. I mean a year till set up for long term production. <br /> <br />Most crops fall in the 60 to 90 day range. Staggered planting, once a week, there is a constant flow and land produces. In winter even cool weather crops can be grown. Crops started in a green house, set out as seedlings, can come in two weeks quicker. <br /> <br />The Chinese are known for feeding eleven people on half an acre. Cabbage produces some 80,000 pounds per acre. several pounds per square foot in two months. Melons are up there, as both are mostly water. This land was farmed without drainage, without flushing, and still produced. Till a white crust formed on the surface and nothing would grow. By the time a crust forms, it is salted to the water table, hence drains, and flushing five foot. <br /> <br />Restored it will produce huge amounts of food. I still want a Sushi Bar. <br /> <br />Land is fed, stored energy. I lack faith in some chemicals, I prefer my Nitrogen from cover crops, growing clover, turning in in, between crops, or chick peas, feeding the soil microganisms. A good colony of soil bacteria runs 20 tons per acre, with a twelve hour life. They add a lot. <br /> <br /><span style="font-weight: bold">The land by Deming was on ebay. item # 220229126880. </span> It's there, the water is there, but one has to apply for water rights, and for full row crop use, that land would need 120 acre foot. Existing farms with an established water right are a better deal. It might work in the Deming area, there was a lot of row crop, till immigration got involved. Row crop takes lots of labor at harvest, and farm workers are not underpaid. <br /> <br />Labor is the key to taking over farm land. Lots of farms went to growing alfalfa, which can be harvested, baled by machine. It does not pay like row crops. A place with existing six and eight inch wells, a set water right, are cheap for what is there, if you have labor. <br /> <br />As far as bandits along the Rio Grand, I would poison the water supply, and wade across. They will have one day of looting and feasting. I will make it slow acting, so they have time to invite their friends to the party. Free Guns! <br /> <br />I see underemployed annoyed Aspies, and a labor short farm world. Putting the two together, we get rich, with a long term security. Filling a refer truck can well be worth $40,000, and that might be an acre or two. It is mostly labor. So just working the harvest can be more than a lot of people are making now. Seasonal Aspies. People do not use a lot of land or water, homes would not be a problem. Paid for home and a good job, making enough to live all year on the harvest. <br /> <br />The offer of a home is not unusual for farm labor. Cesar Chaves and the UFW, the demand for good housing for migratory workers. It was built, it is still there, but no more migratory workers. So farms are waiting, with housing, plumbing, water rights, good soil, for someone who can come up with labor. <br /> <br />It even comes witht he tractors, implements, and and a crop can be in the ground in weeks. The question is what to grow, and who will harvest. <br /> <br />As for rain, it mostly comes from the east. The Gulf storms cover west Texas and Southern New Mexico. Some times a Pacific storm off Mexico, will bring it from the south. There are some high mountains to the west, so rarely, though Arizona did get very wet on a Southern California storm. <br /> <br />In general, we are in a long term drought, and have overused both ground and surface water. Deming, the Mimbres Valley is better for having good water, the Rio Grand is better for having water, that needs work. Either would work with labor. <br /> <br />The farm world is a mess, and is shut out of the new rising price of food. So it is a great time to get in. <br /> <br />Now we need a lot of people to come for the harvest.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>archetype</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://wrongplanet.cachefly.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 12:32 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Hi Inventor <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">MRE Meal, Ready to Eat. They even come with a heater pouch. Good for five years, room temp storage, plastic bag, mostly food weight. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />hmmm... proper vegan food has about everything the body needs. I'm not a vegan, but have dated vegan women, and they were very healthy. <br />In a rarified economy, and in a rarified land, where food may be more difficult to come by, things like MRE's might be a good thing to produce. <br />I haven't seen the MRE's you speak of, but could this community produce something similar (we'd probably skip the 'heated' luxury)? <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />In scale, 38 acres just north of Deming sold last night for $4300. That area has plentiful groundwater of good quality at 100' to 125'. It is within five miles of an I-10 on ramp and a 24 hour Super Walmart. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />That's incredible. Can you provide me with the source of information where you find this out? I would buy land fast at that price. Not just any land, but land that has growing potential, can be self-supportive. I spend that amount of money in two months, so 38 acres I'd rather take. To me, that land would be community property. It would exist for the Autistic community, and would be placed in a trust or whatever legal things NT's insist upon. <br />Aspies could then work on what best to do with this asset. <br />There's Aspies all over the world, so there will be a need for communities all over the world. <br />Real estate is the ultimate asset; from that, anything can be done. <br /> <br />There is also a need for diferent types of communities. You are creating a community based on a certain premise which makes sense. I was most very happy in my artists' community, and I rarely left the building which was home to 100+ artists. I had little need to, and less desire to. I was very happy and fulfilled working on my art, completely separated from the NT world out there. It was like an island. I could go on about how much I loved it and how grateful I was for about 300 post's-worth ... but you can get the picture. <br />So, I completely understand what you're doing, and I was happiest doing the same thing. <br />But my community was destroyed rabidly by NT's and they were filthy capitalists, hating people and artists. They stole my home and destroyed my community. 9 years I lived in my true home, in a community I belonged in. I would never have left. But, it was taken from me. I am a bit angry with that. So, my benign self-actualizational work and living was destroyed, and I am no longer happy. There is the temptation to do this again. However, I did the self-work I wanted and needed to do, and I no longer have the urge of need to engage in art. But others do; and I know how difficult and singular that work is, and powerful and potent the fruits of that labor can be. <br />I am fortunate to have had those 9 years. I grew to encompass greater horizons, unending. The results I know, and so I support that work. <br /> <br />But different types of communities are best for different purposes, people, and functions. <br />I don't like the idea of NT's experimenting on Autistics. I don't like the idea of Autistics in the hands of NT's. An Aspie community is wonderful ... but what about other Autistics. I, personally, don't like the idea of just abondoning them to NT's. So I see a need for communities where LFA's can live happily. We take care of ourselves. Those who have the inclination to care for and about others, who can contribute their degree and aspect of functionality, can decide whether they wish to live n a community which supports lesser-functioning Autistics. Too many have to many gifts that don't need to - and therefore shouldn't - just go to waste, unacknowledged. I've seen the most incredible things fomr lower-functioning Autistics. There's a particularly well-known woman who made a video of herself singing and 'interacting' with her environment. I understand her language, for all things speak, and I have been there; her video reminded me of that time - which I had forgotten about completely. The value in that alone for me is priceless. She is in a place I have merely glimpsed and visited. The world around me barged in, and disconnected me from that place. I went back, after seeing her video, and I know what it means and its value. <br /> <br />There is more, too; and for many of us, having communties of various types or in various areas of the world ... how wonderful to have a home close by wherever we might go. How excellent to spend time in different communities, each aspects of a single community. <br /> <br />There is room for communties for technological advancements, which we Aspies have and can continue to be our extraordinary selves at. These communities might have need for more continuous sources of energy, perhaps being located near a hydro-electric power source. <br /> <br />There is certainly need for the type of community you are intiating. At a different period in my life, that would be the only thing I would want for myself ... and, yes, it would be good and wholesome. <br /> <br />So I do support this community, as it is needed, good, and wholesome. <br /> <br />But I have had my 9 years of such. I am fortunate. After that 9 years, I have grown enough, healed enough, and aquired enough knowledge that I can now venture outside of myself, and 'do' and take action in this world. <br />I thought I was ready to do this at 25yo, but I wasn't. So I went back to 'start' and continued to do what I needed to do. <br />I traveled. <br />I was homeless. <br />I learned to survive. <br />I lived primitively. <br />I lived luxuriously. <br />I walked and lived in all aspects of this society, form top to bottom, from side to side. <br />I had my 9 years of self-work and growth and actualization through my dedication to my work through the medium of 'art'. <br />I had more years of different work, afterwards. <br /> <br />I am still angry, and I am alone - neither of which I want to be. A community will change my circumstance, that I can be more positive and happy and fulfilled. That is a much better place to act from. <br /> <br />So, I agree wih the community. I do have questions about time scales and what can be expected when. <br /> <br />If there is a good property available inexpensively, I would be interested in procurring it - before someone else does. There may be other properties that might come along, too; but when you decide to act, you 'just do it'. <br />... and there are others here and from different websites and those who are not on any site that wish to create different communities that may not be appropriate for the community in the desert. Those other communites may be disruptive to the silence an peace and tranquility of the desert community. <br /> <br />In my situation, I am working toward something, and there is a frustration and a fighting inherent in that. The presence of these feelings are disruptive in themselves. In being in a community that is like my artists' community - where I had no urge or desire to be 'activist' or change anything or deal with the outside world, and where I the majority of people in the community didn't want that, either, for they were working on their art - I must take great care not to allow my feelings from dealing with the outside world to enter the community. <br />I have already experienced this from the other side - being content in a community and having people who's 'battling the system' was just disruptive. Their obsessive anger and negative feelings were not something beneficial, and I could see that they would never accomplih anything postive from that place of adversity, anyway. <br /> <br />So, I know that other communities are needed if the necessary and wholesome purpose and environment of the desert community is to remain integral. <br /> <br />Although I would like to contribute to the desert community, I think it is best that I contribute to a different type of community which is more 'active'. I would like to interface with the NT world and help create a place where Aspies can utilize their gifts to derive economy from the NT world. As long as there is an NT economy, we benefit by deriving revenues from that economy. <br /> <br />I don't want to 'take' potential community members from the desert community, and there is no need to. The desert community is perfect for what it is and for what many people would benefit most from. So, any other community can - and should - be very different; that there are then two very different communities for very different functions and very different people with very different objectives. <br /> <br />My 9 years in my 'urban village', in my 'island-building', separate from all outside horrors, I cannot speak wondefully-enough about. Everyone should have the opportunity for this. I cannot say less than that. I had my time; other's really do deserve theirs - for one year, or 9 years, or a lifetime. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Solar stills can produce very fresh from the river, and flushing the soil will restore it to some of the best in the country. What it needs is drainage to five foot, a fresh rinse, and drip irrigation. It is year around crop land, four or five crops. Staggered plantings produced melons all winter. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Is the Rio Grande river directly accessible and bordering the property you are looking at? <br />If not, there is no means to acces the water. None that is guaranteed. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />The border is defended from both sides, looters will be stopped by Customs, Immigration, and never get near the border. Mexico does not need Gringo refugees. Canada will most likely double in population over night. Mexico has the army deployed fifty kilometers back from the border, and all the border controls. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />In the circumstance of an infrastructure collapse, everyone will be in survival mode, including the individual people who are the border patrol. The order patrol is, if anything, a most dangeous threat, as they have the training, skill-set, assets, and weapons to make them a powerful self-surviving group. <br />At the least, tribute would have to be paid to them for 'protection'. <br />Protection is not 24/7-365. <br /> <br />Police do not like Autistics or 'strange' people. Police are the epitome of everything NT. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />I can live on snakes and rabbits, seeds, some of the cactus is very good for food and water. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />That is admirable; I wouldn't necessarily know how to do that. Most wouldn't. That's one of the problems I see. <br /> <br />Others - who might not be able to live off of snakes and chewable rocks - need a pretty specific time-frame about how many people can live off that land, when the first crops can be expected from however many people are already there and the amount of man-hours of work ...etc.. <br /> <br />Everything depends on other things. <br /> <br />Before committing to the desert community, I would want more specific knowledge and information about what can really happen in what time frame from what amount of work. <br />Are there enough people to do the work necessary to begin this system? <br />Are there too many people, that the system is overburdened and fails? <br /> <br />I think it is a good idea to examine these criteria. <br /> <br />I'm not big on being organized, and I don't enjoy thinking that way ... but it is necessary sometimes. I can play chess without thinking, because the most at stake is that I will lose a game of chess. <br />There is much more at stake here; people, and their lives. <br /> <br />So, I see an absolute need for very specific information. You know more about this than anyone (we can assume), so you would need to provide the specific information, and create the realistic plan on how all this will work, what is needed, how much money each individual would need to begin this community, how long until each step of progress is made, and what the time-frame is on every aspect of community growth - including amount of people, crop type and yield, etc., etc.. <br /> <br />The desert community does seem like a good idea, but as a community, it is a responsibility - of someone, which looks like you, Inventor <img src="modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" border="0" /> - to provide the necessary specific information to the people who will be part of that community. <br /> <br />I can assist in asking the questions I would want to know and which I would think others would want to know. <br /> <br />Throwing Aspies into the desert is a hilarious idea - and does work; but the eco-sytem is fragile and either too many or too little people could fail to create the self-sustaning system you describe as possible, and which seems possible - if it is done correctly to ensure that it becomes not just possible, but real. <br /> <br />You would know more about how that has to happen than me, so I can only ask questions. <br /> <br />Again, I don't like to have to think rationally or with the left hemisphere of my brain, but I can't see it as anything but necessary in such a case as this. <br /> <br />Inventor; do you agree that a plan is warranted and beneficial? That people who are involved in beginning this community should understand what needs to be done, how things need to be done, what they need to give, and when they can expect what to happen? <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />I prefer Sushi and green tea. I would not eat fish from the Rio Grande. Mexico does sell fresh fish from the Pacific, caught twelve hours before. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />These things can be counted on to be unavailable in even of an infrastructure collapse. In the meantime, these things all cost money, and has nothing to do with a potentially self-sufficient community. <br />I can afford sushi and fesh fish from Mexico, but not everyone may be able to. <br />What will they eat in the meantime? <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />1,000,000 unemployed cows. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Harrr! <br />I've come to like my neighbor's cow. I might want a couple, then. They do produce milk, as well as making the most adorably huge pets that follow you around and lick your hand and really like you. they seem to almost look up to you as a role model. <br />I hate mowing my lawn, anyway. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />So just the current disruptions are causing land to be sold cheap, ... Just take over payments would make me laugh, it is worth maybe half that. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Again, if this is the case, I'd like to know more about it, it you could oblige. I've been looking through the 'net, but I haven't seen the types of properties you appear to be looking at. <br />Where do you find these properties for sale? <br /> <br />I would consider taking over payments, but the circumstances and benefits of such land would have to be most excellent, and be able to provide a lot of something to many people quickly and affordably - and continue to provide ... forever. <br /> <br />There's deals to make in taking over payments. I know that there is an infrastructure collapse immenent. I don't know when. But money will lose value quickly - and upon any infrastructure collapse, will be worthless. $1,000,000 today can buy a lot; but that amount of money wouldn't be able to buy a handful of bullets after any infrastructure collapse. <br />I'll trade them a rifle and 1,000 bullet for their quit-claiming their $1,000,000 property which I've taken over the payments from. <br /> <br />Besides, no payments will be made on any property, soon enough. It's just negotiating the correct deal to gain a truly valuable (not necessarily monetarily valuable) property. Then, when everyone else stops payments on their properties, we do, too - as we'll have just as much justification to (planned justification) - even if the Aspie 'nation' is wealthy by all standards. Since the property is producing and people are self-sufficient on it, the government won't be complaining; they'll have their hands full trying to support the rest of the nation ... if they even bother. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Our value is in use, and in labor. We do have some cash, but I do not expect to live on cactus, I would fund a Sushi bar. In four months, it is a place you could live in a tent for six months, and then in thick adobe. There are no County building codes. I would put in septic, for it is useful stuff. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />I'll message you about a few things, as I don't know what is discussable or not. <br />I'd love a sushi bar! <br />So, estimated time from land purchase to adobe dwelling is 6 months? <br /> <br />No county building codes. So I would be free to design and build whatever, however I might want? <br />Would there be any land use limitations? <br />It's difficul for me to imagine this, as Ilive in Connecticut, USA, and their are codes and laws and regulations thicker than some telephone directories ... and they vary not just by State or country or even town, but even by areas in a town. You have no idea what's what. Where I used to live, in a lake community, the town wouldn't allow my landlord to fix his front stairs by widening the staircase and landing. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Two 40' x 100' sheets of plastic would make a solar still that would provide irrigation water, and a few months later, crops, the place was famous for melons and onions. It has also grown barley, wheat, corn, beans, squash, and more. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Again, this is dependent on adjacency to the Rio Grande. Without that adjacency, the community would be dependent on NT's - and who knows what else? - for access to such water source. In an infrastructure collapse, the river would be a hot-spot, probably very dangerous ither permanently or intermittantly, and unless the community prepared for such with a highly intelligent fortified access, there might not be any access. <br />The only way to create such dependable access is if the community land is adjacent to the river. <br />Once adjacent, the water can be mechanically accessed from within the river and underground. But the access inlet inside the river would still require maintenence. There would need to be a very close access from the community to the water inlet for individuals to perfom maintenence activity; this personnel access would need to be highly fortified, and a form of telescoping/retractable security through-way might be desirable. There's different ways to do this that don't involve any commitments until and if there is a infrastructure collapse. <br /> <br />I looked at the area, and it appears that any exsting, year-round tributaries are dammed and being used. The river itself is not very large, and does look pretty nasty. <br /> <br />Distilling works, with the amount of sun. <br /> <br />Also, it lloks like there isn't sufficent water for amenities like flushing toilets, showers or baths. It doens't appear that there would be running water within individual homes. <br /> <br />It seems that a little more information on the water topic might be beneficial. <br /> <br />There's rainfall, but is it only seasonal? You are speaking about 600sf adobes; how much water does this catch, and how long does captured water need to be stored? Such long-term stored water would have to be distilled before use, I would think. <br /> <br />Would there be enough water for daily bathing of any type? What about water for general cleaning or water needed for various types of work and production? <br /> <br />How would I ever have my coffee??? <br /> <br />Also, a few months to crops. <br />What crops could be expected in a few months, and can those crops feed the people of the community? How many people could be fed, given all the variables (of which I don't know)? <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />I have a deal to have adobe delivered from Mexico, cheap, fast and ready to build. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Making adobe bricks requires water? <br />If so, where does that amount of water come from? <br /> <br />It may be useful to start out with purchased 'bricks'(?). If you're already doing this, then others might want to also purchase adobe materials .. and a larger order might lower over-all costs. <br /> <br />Also, what is the total time (in single person-hours) to build a 1,000sf house, from getting the raw material, through the process (how long does an adobe brick need to 'cure'?), all the way to completion of the building? <br />Are there large differences in material and time between a 600sf house and a 1,000sf house? <br />Some people might opt for a small structure; 500sf footprint units with a loft in my artists' community building were sufficient for a single person, and I thought about moving to one at a point when I was low on income. <br /> <br />I also designed a real-estate venture of student housing condos for a neaby over-populated university, which student population was mostly wealthy from NY and Long Island. <br />I designed loft units that were 550sf footprint, and which had modular wall/windows/doors for beneath the loft - depending on how the individual wanted to use their space. The space could be completely open, have a partial half-height wall, be walled with French doors, or be completely enclosable and soundproof (for studying, musical instrument pactice, or just an A/V entertainment area - or all of the above). <br />I included a unique security system that could be customized and a small area for a modular 'safe-room' in each unit - for Daddy's Little Girl. <br />I know how to make things wealthy people can't help but purchase <img src="modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" border="0" /> <br />It was a fantastic idea, as one realtor (my mother, actually) could make a great living just selling the student condos during one season/year in what is it's own economy, based on wealthy New-Yorkers, housing their 'precious' and bratty children. Daddy buys their Corvettes and BMW's, and would certainly invest in a condo that would turn around in a few years to the next wealthy 'daddy-silver-spoon' student. <br />I created a unique, sloped roof design to allow through-air in back-to-back, highly dense housing, and incorporated very private porches and a small yard of the one-car driveway/parking space. <br />The condo project housed a lot of students in a very small land footprint, and 3 walls of each unit were shared and inexpensively sound-proofed. Cost per unit was about $30,000, including everything. they would sell-out like hotcakes for $100,000 to New-Yorkers - who would then turn them around for a profit after graduation. Everyone won big on that project - which was never even started because nobody understood anything about how it all worked. <br />But anyway .... <br /> <br />So, yes, 600 sf can be very adequately spacious if designed right. I typically work with the outdoors and take advantage of the ouside space to augment the feeling of spaciousness and increased s.f. useful area. <br />I don't know enough about desert to know how or if that could be done. <br />(oh .. yeah .. I wanted to be an architect when I was young.) <br /> <br />anyway... <br /> <br />Some of these questions might take a lot to explain; perhaps for those that you don't want to go into details for you might provide useful links you might have on hand. I'm assuming you might have very useful links on adobe building and structure. that would be helpful for people; it would be for me. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Food producers are protected. When the world falls apart, there will be no need to defend it, because everyone around will be defending it. Shogun, "how many rice bowls do you fill?" <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Shoguns don't defend ... they own. <br />"How many rice bowls do you fill?" is not a judgement or conceiled threat I need, want, or am or amiable about anyone thinking they can place on me. I am not worth anything to anyone I don't wish to be. <br /> <br />Farmers are never protected through history; they are the poorest of the poor and are taxed by those who kill. <br /> <br />Shoguns kill. <br />Shoguns exploit, they don't protect. <br />Shoguns own, they don't cooperate. <br />Shoguns take, they don't ask. <br /> <br />There are too many other sayings and tales to counter the one you stated. <br /> <br />The tale about how the ox came to wear the yoke is one. Summed: <br />Man told the ox how they would both benefit by working together. But man never took the yoke off, which is why the ox is no longer free. <br /> <br />In a fallen infrastructure, warlords vie and rule. They rule over villages and farmers, precisely. Farmers aren't free and they don't work for themselves; they work for the warlord and his army, and the farmers keep working if they don't want to be killed. If the farmer does not produce to the warlord's satistaction, they are made 'example' of. <br /> <br />There are scenarios where a benign Aspie community might be protected, but those are too unlikely. Look at our situation ina 'civilization'. Now imagine that civilization gone. It is the snarling brutes who rule, then ... not us, not even well-meaning but thoroughly wrong NT's. <br /> <br />Snarling brutes do not protect Aspies; they beat them and take from them and every other horror you could imagine. <br /> <br />What will protect the community ... is me. <br />That is what I do best of the best, when everything boils down to prime. <br />I also devise best; but I also devise protection best, too. <br />Between mechanics, algorithm, and snarling brute inevitibility, most protection is very simple and very automated. <br /> <br />I'm not being negative, just providing for a very plausible situation. I'm providing for the undesireable, yes; but that's good, and one of the things I have of value to contribute to a community; safety and survival under any contingency. Once you get beyond the morality of it, it's a very fascinating subject. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Clearing salt cedar, building a solar still, laying drainage, is work beyond building houses. Within a year, it is crops. Paid for it is $3000 an acre above the price of the land, and before housing. Done with your own labor, it is cheaper. I would hire/buy a Ditch Witch to lay pipe and drainage, the rest is hand labor. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />You mention months, but here mention a possible year until crops. That makes a large difference on how things go. <br /> <br />I'm not playing 'devils avocate' or trying to create strife or arguments. I simply see these things and ask questions; sometimes I disagree and place what I see in view. <br /> <br />Agains, the price of the land doesn't seem to be the mitigating factor; it's the price of everything combined. Land can go for $800/acre, but development costs for use can make the land cost negligable - depending on the area and ... well .. now I'm just seeing a lot of factors. <br /> <br />By 'drainage' do you mean wate drainage or septic system? Is there a need for water drainage, and if so, then that is additional to septic. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />California and Arizona are running out of water, crops are a good long term bet. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />That's a bit of a worry to me. <br />Upstream might be taken because of this. People will do that in order to continue living. <br /> <br />Also, where does the rain come from? <br />If Cal, and AZ are running out of water, then less will be given up to evaporation ... and what effect will that have on the rainfall in the community area???? <br /> <br />So, I am seeing possibilities that rain cannot be counted on - and that it looks like rain will not increase at all, but if there is any change, it must be a decrease. <br /> <br />I am seeing the possibilities that the river cannot be counted on. With less rain, there is less water tribute. With more demand upstream, there is more taken. <br /> <br />There are scenarios where the river sources are simply taken and used. I don't know the entire river system, and I just thought about this because of what you mentioned ... which is true, and which has been going on for a long time. Yet the population continues to incease. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Areas of the southwest with water are the only place to expand. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />I'm not certain about that. It is a good possibility for expansion - provided the rainfall doesn't decrease and the waters of Rio Grande are not stolen and are continued to be fed by the existing rainfall. <br /> <br />I can make a better case for survival in the hidden, sliver-of-a-valley I now live in. Fertile farm land. Year-long healthy river (my house is the first house, built in 1836, established in this still-cleared, once farming valley at the intersection of two rivers) fed by hillside runoff and other sources. Farmland for miles around. Few roads. <br />No, I don't see any deer aroung here, as I told someone; no deer can get within miles of my home without being shot for game. <br />The river is a natural barrier that can be fortified with booby traps and the terrain can be adjusted to be steeper, or boggier; as such, one side of the valley is made impassable except for the single existing bridge, easily fortified and defendable against anything that has to traverse the open space. <br /> <br />Before even learning that I was AS, before I even thought of an AS community, I was looking at this valley as one of the most survive-worthy places I could imagine. The river is private and strong; it slows in the summer, but runs strong none-the-less. Waterwheels provide all manner of constant energy - including mechanical energy transformable into manufacturing capabilities. I can design such, and the hillsides are all woods, for whatever lumber is needed to build those facilities. <br /> <br />Good luck even knowing this valley is here, or finding it, tucked just nice between two long hillsides. <br /> <br />One farm produces hay. Horses. <br />The farm across the street from me could produce enough food for the people who live here. <br />Indoor running water via pipe from the waterwheels <br />Up the valley, the land gets steep and the wate cascades; dammed with mostly river-rocks for structure; hydro-electric energy. Not a great amount, but a constant and sufficient amount to add to solar electric and wind generators on the top of the hills. <br /> <br />Heat is a concern. But the river runs strong in the winter from constant snow and melting. A well-designed waterwheel is unstoppable in those waters, and in the winter isn't used for too much, so I can run electricity to heat at least a portion of the house. A well-insulated house, prepared for winter, keeps warmth in very efficiently. <br />There's also plenty of woods surrounding on the valley hillsides. During the cold-snaps, a little wood in a proper stove goes a long way. Heating 600sf isn't too much, when well-insulated. Houses just aren't built to expand and retract the living space into itself during the seasons; that takes a little modification. <br />All combined, solar, wind, river, wood, there's heat enough to be comfortable. <br /> <br />There's no need for air-conditioning; the river cools the air and it stays in the woods at the base of the hills; the house I live in is cool all summer except in heatwaves. I don't like air-conditioning, and I actually would prefer the house to be warmer in the 3 non-winter months, especially the summer, when I would normally wear a toga and I instead have to wear light sweatpants and a long-sleeve shirt inside. <br /> <br />There's only one growing season. <br /> <br />But there's two apple trees and a pear tree on my property; one apple tree produces more apples than I would ever want to eat in a year. I certainly have an apple-a-day. <br /> <br />The river has fish, and can become a fishery. Various places can be dammed and create significant ponds. <br /> <br />All this without interrupting the natureal eco-system of the river and land. <br /> <br />The land is expensive here, however ... and that is certainly a mitigating factor. But there's a lot of populace the valley could support. Flushing toilets, indoor running fresh water, varieties of food. <br /> <br />New England was the first place settled, and everyone seemed to do well. I'm a half-hour's drive from the beginning of the population corridor, and an hour from the city of Hartford. <br /> <br />Given this valley, and the variety of terrain, climate, and environments throughout the Country, I'm not so certain that the desert is the only place to expand, survive, and thrive. <br /> <br />Right now, it does make sense, especially economically, to make a community in the desert. But there's other properties you mentioned which may be suitable, and if large land parcels are going that inexpensively and will only continue to drop, then it would seem that very fertile land with running water might be suitable for expansion as well, seeing as the costs involved can be much more than just the land. <br /> <br />Also, in the event that things turn for the worse - that rainfall decreases and that the river water is stolen and may dry up in the summer season, and that flat land is difficult to defend against long-range weapons and armored heavier weapons, or whatever surprises the future may hold - it would be nice to have anothe community that can handle the populace. <br />Also, the desert community might survive well where others do not ... the the reverse may end up being true, and your statement might then be correct on a long-term basis. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />AS complains about employment, well go out an pick melons at dawn. One problem with farming was lack of labor, with the every changing border controls. We need the AS Welfare Farm. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Agreed. <br />The entire AS community, doing its various things, can provide everyone with independence eventually - hopefully not too far off. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />... spread along the river. I know of several hundred miles. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />That sounds promising; the more of an eco-system we control, the more it prospers. <br />Everything and everyone benefits from having the largest possible land holding. Several hundred miles is its own ecology and biosphere ... it's own Right Planet. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />I am the villas along the river type, looking for olives that will ripen in the climate, think I found the way. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />I'm a bit Med myself. I'll always take a villa, a gentleman's estate, a 120,000sf old factory on several acres. <br />I like olives and vineyards. I like grapes hanging around. Makes me feel legendary. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Olive oil is a high value in demand crop. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Right now it might be. But if food costs continue to rise, olive oil becomes a very expensive luxury to most. <br />I happen to love olive oil, fresher the better. I pour it on anything. All my favorite meals have olive oil in them. <br />But I wouldn't put stock in olives or olive oil for the future. That would be on my "sell" list. <br />MRE's are now on my "buy" list. <br /> <br />It's hard to live off of olive oil, but it's certainly nice to have around to put in everything. Lots of good calories, too. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />I am not going to pay them to read Wiki, or play video games, and I do not know what else they would be good for. I think they can pick melons and clear brush. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Orson Scott Card. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />I have found a few in art and technology, I like them better than humans. Poor is a universal trait, so we will not have the Vegas Convention. Out on the farm at low density, being paid, they would still not make eye contact or have conversations, but would be in the same County. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />I never made eye contact as a child or into my teens. <br />I make eye contact now without thinking, without discomfort of any kind. I have nothing to hide, I have no guilt - that's NT guilt, not mine, I no longer 'act' unless I'm 'acting', I know I see right through people and that's ok with me - if not for them, I am not 'invading' others by looking at them and knowing everything I do about them - I'm too understanding because I've been there wherever there is, and no NT can possibly intimidate me ... because I know them thoroughly, and I don't really like what I see. <br />The only reason not to look is because it's ugly to look at. There's people I prefer not to see the ugliness of, or times when people are too ugly to want to look at them. I look at people because ... what else am I supposed to look at? My shoes I've already looked at and examined, and I do like them. People are sentient. Trees aren't as sentient. Interacting with people is more interactive than interacting with a tree - unless it's just another common NT. <br /> <br />What's funny is that I have zero difficultly or discomfort making eye contact ... but NT's can have extreme difficulty and discomfort making eye-contact with me. <br />The more stupid they are, the uglier they are, the more wrong and incorrect they are ... well, I must look at them with some degree of utter disdain and reflect their stupidity, agliness, and wrongness ... and guilt, for NT's are full of guilt ... back at them. I see it, I - unfortunately - do interact with it. NT's have to make believe it doesn't exist ... but I don't. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />I do not believe in this AS stuff, we are just weird over intelligent people with quirks. It is true we do not fit in that other economy, which keeps us poor, but we do fit well on Wrong Planet. Whatever it is, we have a lot in common.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Beliefs are beliefs, and mean ... believe. Believe is not fact. <br />You don't have to believe in this AS stuff; I will do that for you. You only need do what you belive in and see and care about. We each have valuable things to offer. You offer valuable things ... so you don't have to believe in yourself or me; I will take care of believing in us. <br /> <br />Am I really weird? I think NT's are very most weird and subconscious. They are some fkt-up people. I would never want to be like them. They may think I'm wierd - but mostly they're afraid of me. Probably because I'm not fkt-up like they are, and I sort of show it. <br /> <br />I have quirks - and am aware of them. NT's have much more quirks - but are unaware of them and do not acknowldge them to themselves or each other. <br /> <br />I do not understand what "over-intelligent" can possibly be. I am not 'over-intelligent'. I am simply - at least - one of the most intelligent sentient beings to ever dwell on the planet. <br />I am not "over-intelligent"; that is impossible. Most people are only average-intelligent ... that is impossible to me, too. Average intelligence has no capability to actually think. That level of intelligence can only mimic and repeat. That is impossible to me. There is a lack of sufficient intelligence on this planet. There can never be enough intelligence. I have to explain my simplest, fleeting thoughts using excessive dialogue; and still there is not enough intelligence to understand such simple, obvious thoughts. <br />Part of these thoughts are due to clarity, not just intelligence. Perhaps you speak of intelligence without clarity; then I would agree. <br />"Too intelligent for the degree of conscious clarity." makes sense to me as a definition of "over-intelligent". <br />NT's are almost all "over-intelligent". <br />Look at the world they make for themselves. Complete lack of clarity. Too intelligent for their lack of clarity. Result; obliviousness and stupidity. <br /> <br />Look! We seek to disengage ourselves from that obliviousness and stupidity. That appears *just* intelligent to me. <br />Aspies are highly sensitive; NT's 'de-sensitize' themselves, where Aspies cannot. Aspies have to withdraw from the de-sensitized world NT's create to survive in the de-sensitized world they created. Ultimate NT stupidity. Obvious Aspie reaction. <br /> <br />What is required to fit into that other economy? NT's do things all their lives they hate doing. Thay make that world for themselves everyday, and can't find a way to stop it. <br /> <br />We seek to make our own world - without all those problems. <br />Yes, we have much in common, even though there may be much external differences.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Inventor</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://wrongplanet.cachefly.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:20 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">MRE Meal, Ready to Eat. They even come with a heater pouch. Good for five years, room temp storage, plastic bag, mostly food weight. <br /> <br />In scale, 38 acres just north of Deming sold last night for $4300. That area has plentiful groundwater of good quality at 100' to 125'. It is within five miles of an I-10 on ramp and a 24 hour Super Walmart. <br /> <br />20 acres just off the Rio Grande with electric is $6000 with no bid. Water is a guess out there. Guessing is expensive. <br /> <br />People are dumping their desert ranch because money is tight, with more to come. That was $110 to $300 an acre, and cash. <br /> <br />Texas has done a lot of work on land restoration. In general, it is not worth it. Clearing brush costs $1000 an acre, on land worth $300. Then comes seeding in native grasses, then five years till a sod develops that could support light grazing. But five years to restore 150 years of damage is not bad. It was grassland, and has been proven that it will return to that state with local rainfall, and keeping the cows and goats off. <br /> <br />The other brush is salt cedar along the rivers, the curse of the west. It costs $1000 an acre to clear, but beneath it is farm land. Problem is the river is 2000 to 5000 mg/l of salts, which is way high for irrigation. Farms were abandoned to salt cedar because irrigation salted the land. <br /> <br />Solar stills can produce very fresh from the river, and flushing the soil will restore it to some of the best in the country. What it needs is drainage to five foot, a fresh rinse, and drip irrigation. It is year around crop land, four or five crops. Staggered plantings produced melons all winter. <br /> <br />The border is defended from both sides, looters will be stopped by Customs, Immigration, and never get near the border. Mexico does not need Gringo refugees. Canada will most likely double in population over night. Mexico has the army deployed fifty kilometers back from the border, and all the border controls. <br /> <br />I can live on snakes and rabbits, seeds, some of the cactus is very good for food and water. I prefer Sushi and green tea. I would not eat fish from the Rio Grande. Mexico does sell fresh fish from the Pacific, caught twelve hours before. <br /> <br />Just from gas prices, my grocery is no longer stocking Prime Rib, but family pack ground meat. I expect the price of cattle to fall, as the price of grain to feed them on feed lots just doubled. Beef was a narrow margin business, five cents a pound on the hoof is bankruptcy. A 10% downturn in beef consumption, 1,000,000 unemployed cows. A lot of ranches are going back to the bank. <br /> <br />So just the current disruptions are causing land to be sold cheap, and some was off the market because of problems before. In between was what realators listed, which now has a two year backlog, and sales are dead, because no one can get financing. Making others poor so they would feel richer is catching up with them. Just take over payments would make me laugh, it is worth maybe half that. <br /> <br />Our value is in use, and in labor. We do have some cash, but I do not expect to live on cactus, I would fund a Sushi bar. In four months, it is a place you could live in a tent for six months, and then in thick adobe. There are no County building codes. I would put in septic, for it is useful stuff. <br /> <br />Two 40' x 100' sheets of plastic would make a solar still that would provide irrigation water, and a few months later, crops, the place was famous for melons and onions. It has also grown barley, wheat, corn, beans, squash, and more. I have a deal to have adobe delivered from Mexico, cheap, fast and ready to build. <br /> <br />Not only will we live cheaply, we have cash, food is cheaper in Mexico, and we can grow lots. After distilling it twice, I would drink river water. I know how to make very pure water. The main thing is labor, stacking those adobes, clearing salt cedar, and buying up more of the river. There is a hard road, but it only goes to the Federal checkpoint, so bandits would have problems. <br /> <br />This land went under for the people who had it exploited it and the river, and would not use the technology that would have kept it productive. <br /> <br />"Putting ten hecrtares of land into production is worth more than winning a battle." Old Persian. <br /> <br />Food producers are protected. When the world falls apart, there will be no need to defend it, because everyone around will be defending it. Shogun, "how many rice bowls do you fill?" <br /> <br />Now I do see the price of desert dropping, and it will never be of great value. A square mile might raise six cows. Farm land can produce melons and onions. It has produced since 1200AD. The problem is dams, and cities upstream. They take the water and make the rest salty. As long as there is water, I can make it pure, and there is a volume. <br /> <br />Clearing salt cedar, building a solar still, laying drainage, is work beyond building houses. Within a year, it is crops. Paid for it is $3000 an acre above the price of the land, and before housing. Done with your own labor, it is cheaper. I would hire/buy a Ditch Witch to lay pipe and drainage, the rest is hand labor. <br /> <br />California and Arizona are running out of water, crops are a good long term bet. <br /> <br />Once crops are growing, hire people to work the fields. We have paid for land, houses, money coming in, and become a large emplyer. <br /> <br />Areas of the southwest with water are the only place to expand. I would not want Saint Louis or Detroit. <br /> <br />Mexico is a wonderful country, our only border with a non English people. They think all Gringos are strange, so I get by much better in other cultures and languages. Besides, it is very cheap, basic foods, house frunishings, plumbing fixtures, and they deliver. Catered Thai is an option. <br /> <br />Power and phone run along the river. Hard road, a few miles from the grocery, or the bridge to Mexico. <br /> <br />AS complains about employment, well go out an pick melons at dawn. One problem with farming was lack of labor, with the every changing border controls. We need the AS Welfare Farm. Everything is fairly easy, preparing the fields, planting irrigating, then comes pick and pack the crop, which is high labor for the winter. It is also the resort vacation season, when it is cool nights, and mild days. <br /> <br />Cheap to get there, no cost of living, good wages, and there will always be more salt cedar to clear. In the old days some of these farms had $7,000,000 payrolls. They lost their labor force, and the water salted. We could fix both problems, and spread along the river. I know of several hundred miles. <br /> <br />I am the villas along the river type, looking for olives that will ripen in the climate, think I found the way. Even if they do not produce well, rooted cutting sell for $6. Most of the olive zones are to the east, which get more rain, but with irrigation, it might work, or produce 100,000 cutting for the next project. <br /> <br />The main complaints I hear on WP are employment, and personal space. Orchard work would suit them. 65% of the value of the olive crop goes to picking labor. Then there is planting, irrigating, pruning, so 80+% labor. Olive oil is a high value in demand crop. <br /> <br />It is in a date palm belt. Both dates and olives are salt tolerent. That takes time, but trees can be growing while field crops grow below them. <br /> <br />I am not going to pay them to read Wiki, or play video games, and I do not know what else they would be good for. I think they can pick melons and clear brush. <br /> <br />I have found a few in art and technology, I like them better than humans. Poor is a universal trait, so we will not have the Vegas Convention. Out on the farm at low density, being paid, they would still not make eye contact or have conversations, but would be in the same County. <br /> <br />I think they would be great at clearing salt cedar. Every acre cleared will put people to work long term. It has to be started, but then the land will pay them. It took me a while to develop my own economy, but I know the principals, start, grow, spend the income on growing more. <br /> <br />The reason I am going to build is production is going to pay for it, and the new building will have much higher earnings. I will have to teach and pay people to keep up, then they can keep it running, while I work on growing. <br /> <br />I do not believe in this AS stuff, we are just weird over intelligent people with quirks. It is true we do not fit in that other economy, which keeps us poor, but we do fit well on Wrong Planet. Whatever it is, we have a lot in common.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>archetype</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://wrongplanet.cachefly.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 10:29 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"><span style="font-weight: bold">Howdy, Krex</span> <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>krex wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">OK. <br />I keep trying to check out your anthroponomy site but it wont load, so I can neither agree nor disagree with your truth. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Arrgh. I do have to get a new host. The webpage that is up is only rudimentary, more of a placeholder, and it isn't in proper sequence. I don't think it says too much more than I've already said. <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>krex wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />So here is my truth. Humans are parasites. ... The earth can and will save itself when we are gone or low enough in numbers ... With a few natural disasters .... Time is on it's side. Can humans evolve(or have they in us) <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Understood, and agreed. <br />The only questions that remain are the questions you asked. <br />If the eco-system/biosphere goes into a positive feedback loop, it will be disasterous; to what extent - unknown. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>krex wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />I never meant to claim we were going to save the planet or change the eco-system by living in the dessert. I just thought it would be healthier to be away from toxic humans as much as possible. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Understood, and agreed. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>krex wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />My inability to survive in a mad max world has nothing to do with morality as I see morality. I'm not sure I even understand that word, so maybe I'm wrong. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Understood. "Morality" is a very difficult word; I have my own concepts for it, and specific scientific definitions. <br />There is no consensus on what 'morality' means; no-one can define it, which is why I have. But my definition needs to be well thought-out, and needs to be agreed upon in order to use that definition. Otherwise, people are speaking different languages. <br />You're not alone; nobody really knows what 'morality' is. So, you can't be wrong, as it's up to personal interpretation. That's a problem in itself. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>krex wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />My objection is just that I don't believe (and I could be wrong, I have survived a lot), that I have the personal strength to kill. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />I have never killed anything (except some insects). I don't know what it would be like. I'm sure I cold kill to protect myself and others from being killed, however. I wouldn't be going pillaging, however; one of the reasons to form a community - so that is never a question. <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>krex wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Anyway, I think you have the impression that I think your wrong. I don't know enough to know what is right...I'm still learning.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Understood. <br />I present my lifetime's culmination of work for your perusal. It's valid if you find it valid. I can answer questions about it. Although I haven't yet place it in a concentrated format. <br /> <br /><span style="font-weight: bold">Hi, Inventor</span> <br /> <br />I understand, from your previous-to-last post much more about you, as you defined your perceptions. You are very unique, and view the world - and yourself in relation to the world - fundamentally different than I view the world and my relation to it. It's immensely interesting how you are so different than I, that you don't recognize people as I would .. and such ... which I would normally see as very handicapping - but that I am far more 'dysfunctional' than you. <br />Perhaps if people weren't as impacting as they are on me, I would be able to function in the world better, and be better able to financially, etc., support myself. <br /> <br />In light of this, it makes sense to me that you would do as you are doing; as that makes sense. It wouldn't make sense to me - now - for you to do something different. <br /> <br />I don't know when 'd-day' will come, but I know that it will. I am completely cut off from informational sources, so I don't have anything to go by. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />The land is fragile, but tough. Human economy is just fragile. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Human economy is completely unstable, even though the science of economics has made incredible progress. But positive feedback looping under less typical circumstances will still arise. The Human infrastucture is ridiculously fragile. Cities are a horrifying prospect in any infrastructure breakdown. A lot of people will die in the cities, and yes; those escaping will flood and overburden all the surrounding areas - even to the rurals, where they won't be too knowledgeable about how to survive, and where nobody is likely to help them to do so - while those who remain in the cities will do cool things like take over gas-stations as their 'turf' and make barricades around them. By that time, no-one will be able to get out of the cities, as they'll be gunned-down. Those who leave the cities have nowhere to go, their money is useless, and won't be able to survive. Suburbia is it's own type of desert, and rural territories will defend themselves with fatal force. Racism will become extreme, where whites in rural areas will not accept - and probably threaten to shoot - any non-whites who want entry into their farm communities, so there's nowhere for 50% of the population ('minorities') to go; they will have it extra-bad, and have to return to the urban areas ... so it would be likely that they would launch raids into the nearest suburban areas closest. Once that begins, blockades will be set up with no mercy and 'shoot-first' demeanors ... so it's likely that the 50% of the population in the cities will die quickly; but they won't go silently, so we could count on a war-zone retreating backwards from the urban areas, and high casualties on the suburbanite side, as well. <br /> <br />Aside from cities, which cannot support anyone once there's an infrastructure collapse, there is another danger area ... which is the less-fertile areas like the desert. Unlike the fertile and lush sliver of a valley I live in, with a year-round river ... which valley is surrounded by other valleys and farmland and forest for miles in every direction ... which can sustain the smaller population - although there will be no medical resources, and many will not survive with a lack of modern medicine, so a substantial percent of the rural areas populace won't make it through the first winter - less fertile lands are also dependent on infrastructure to support the population with survival. Although the population may be scarce, there will still be no food for most ... quickly. Some will stay, and others will pack up and use the last of their gas to get somewhere greener; there's no-where for anyone to go, however. <br />The SW along the Rio Grande will be inundated by 'refugees', gangs and scavengers from across the river, who are used to less luxury of services, and who will be more able to survive. <br />Colder areas, higher elevations, deserts ... all such environments will not be able to support the populace; just as much reliance on infrastructue is needed by such people as is by those in urban areas. <br />There will be a run on gas until gas-stations and oil companies and oil trucks will be targeted quickly for take-over. <br />Communities in sparser areas which are self-supportive will have to defend themselves from organized bands (like "The Postman" .. or whatever the post-apocalypse movie was with Kevin Kostner), perhaps paying tribute so as not to get attacked. In remote areas, any such bands coming across any civilization will have to fight in order to survive; they will attack when no-one is alert, perhaps at night. The most remote areas probably won't see much after the initial wave of bandits have died off - from starvation or battle. Such areas aren't profitable-enough to stay around and vandalize. But the initial waves will be ferocious. <br /> <br />No oil will come from the Mid-East, as there will be no more Chinese industry fed by American manufacturing; the situation is likely to become a free-for-all to obtain power over the Mid-East, which will become THE gobal battle-ground. Oil-producing facilities will be destroyed so 'the other guy' doesn't get them. <br />Alask will fall, and the pipeline will never stand, so no oil will come from there; China and Russia - with probably Japan, Canada, and a few others will content for those oil fields. <br />Which leaves only the Gulf and Texas areas to supply the USA military and the rest of the Country. Obviously, the military and the newly-established materiel manufacturing industry will take first dibs on that energy source. The remaining will not be enough to supply everyone. <br /> <br />However, by designating what the remaining Guf oil goes toward, it may be possible that the USA can limp on, with oil surplus going then to food production and transport and rationing. This scenario may end up saving the urban areas, but remote areas may have difficulty receiving any of this aid. But certainly there will be no other infrastructure; no electricity, no heating oil, no automobiles, etc.. <br />The scenario depends on how much oil the Gulf produces. <br /> <br />So there are possible saving graces ... unfortunately. It might end up somewhat like the Great Depression. <br /> <br />What's "MRE's" ? <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Mad Max was a movie... <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Yes, and it isn't exactly accurate and wasn't a reference intended to correspond to a reality; but it's useful in generally depicting a type of civilization downfall. <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Those who will die are called customers. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Oh, too funny. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />The Black Death increased wages and lowered costs. There were houses and lands for the taking. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Yes, in he aftermath, if we survive, we can all be looking at beachfront property in Laguna and Newport <img src="modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" border="0" /> <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />You cannot besiege a desert town without water, and no one on foot can carry much. Defenders have a natural three to one advantage, and more so in hostile country. Attackers have to get in, defenders only have to wait. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Perhaps, perhaps not. A limited amount of fuel can carry many people in larger-capacity vehicles ... as well as supplies. There is horseback, as well, in some areas. Long-range rifles, medieval weaponries (like catapults - which can deliver any type of payload), and such can be used effectively against defenders. When you can't pop your head up, and it's raining large rocks and fire-bombs, things can take a turn for the worse. <br />The preparation for such a proposition is necessary, as there are too many unknown to count on anything in specific. 100 soldiers from Mexico might well advance into the USA with some heavy ordnance. Police have to survive as well, and they are most lkely to unite and become the most ferocious of para-military marauders. They will likely take over the best and more defendable land where-ever they might be, and then sent out guerilla scavenger parties to locate things like: women, food, energy. Police are generally hostile, and are becoming increasingly separated from the civilians they supposedly protect and serve. <br /> <br />There's really too much to take into account in predicting the future. <br /> <br />But one thing that makes sense is to prepare for whatever the future might hold in store. <br /> <br />I understand the potenial benefits in taking a place that seemingly nobody else wants, but much of what you say about the desert being a self-sufficiency really take time to happen. It takes a lot of time to produce enough waste that crops can be grown. Although green land does hold and produce more rain, a square mile of green will not rain on itself ... and it will take much time before it can even produce that green. What is the timeline of the restoritive cycle you speak of; I see that it makes sense, but I don't see it happeningexcpet over a period of many years. I don't see any additional rain coming, unless everyone take a square mile of the desert and reclaims it; but that doesn't appear to be happening. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Where there is value the surrounding area gains value, and what will this be worth in ten, twenty, fifty years? <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />The value of the developed desert is nil if there is a 'd-day'; who would want to live in a hut in the desert - or pay $0.50 for one - when 85% of the existing buildings all over the Country are vacant? <br /> <br />The land is certainly affordable in a used-up desert, however. But I dont see the cycle you speak of happening. I don't see that land as able to support many people. I don't see where more rain or water comes from; there would need to be 100 miles of plush green for rain to start appearing. <br />It looks to me like the theory is very sound, and is bio-spherically-correct , but how long does that cycle take to become a reality? <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />An acre is large to me. Those who can bring their income with them can do well. People on Social Security will be rich. The rest is up to the people. Some want seclusion, some work, business. A low cost base with potential support, others who are looking for work, and it is an economy. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />I adore space. I was looking at a ranch in Wyoming - 44 square miles of ranch - for $25million; that's $887/acre. On a mortage, this would be $8.87/month per acre. I can afford a few acres of that - either buying it or paying the mortage on my acres. I could pay for 20 acres, and use 10 and let the othe ten be used by others who might not have an income. <br />For much better land, it might go up to $2,000/acre. I pay $2,000/month in the winter for rent + heat. On a mortgage for something like 20 square miles of such topographically rich and fertile land, an acre would be about $20/month. I could afford 5 acres of such land, and give one to someone who didn't have an income. It woudn't matter where my acres were and where someone else's were; it's just that I could put into the community that way. Perhaps I use 3 acres, 2 other people use a half-acre each (which is still a nice amount according to me, as I have about 0.6 acres, which is rather too large to mow - methinks), and the other acre goes ito community land. Even if there's one person per 5 acres, it's $100/month ... and I do believe that Aspies working together and assisting innumerous projects they take a liking to, would end up making some serious funds; I can't see how $100/person couldn't be afforded. <br />But that is just the land... <br /> <br />It seems that the real cost ends up being not the land, but the structure and the meeting of building codes and the various facilities. <br /> <br />How much is the estimated per-100ft unit going to cost? I have about 300ft x 100ft - or close - of land where I currently reside. <br />There's a lot of privacy from now to late Autumn because of the terrain and foliage. <br /> <br />I'm on SS, so I guess I'll be rich??? I only make $547/month, though. <br /> <br />hmmm.. one square mile ... perhaps thee could be a few different 'zones' for such things as 'seclusion people' and 'work people' and 'attempting-to-socialize people' ... and because Aspies tend to be musically gifted ... a 'musically-gifted-and-using-it people' area. The rest could just be general. <br /> <br />Oh, btw, I had a studio, but I only used electronic instuments and headphones. I only used speakers when mastering music - and the I was careful that nobody was around. I did sound check swith my neighbors to find out what level of sound they could hear. Just because I made music, didn't mean I disturbed anyone; that's not what music is for. I was very courteous. Across the hall from me, however, was a singer/songwriter, who'd be up at 3:00am and playing his baby grand piano. That was a little disturbing and egotistical and discourteous.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Inventor</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://wrongplanet.cachefly.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:57 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">No disagreement here. I see the same. <br /> <br />Water lillys grow in a pond, slowly their numbers double, they take over more and more. Each doubling is faster than the last, and one day the pond is half filled. It wil fill it's boundries, all food will be used, and it will try to double again. It will grow, and starve, and there are no new ponds. <br /> <br />In the last oil crisis wood stoves made a comeback, and that which would burn was burned. Smoke hung over suburbia. firewood bandits went forth and cut trees on land they did not own, and fence posts. To save the forests, they were cut before they could be stolen. People were burning tires and railroad ties, getting heat any way they could. From loss of habitat, and bandits in the woods, the deer were killed. <br /> <br />People had money, they could buy stolen wood, but this time is different. That clear cutting started a drought which continues, it has pushed ranching onto what was grain land, and other grain is now an industrial chemical, ethanol. <br /> <br />The pond is full. Food is mostly an energy cost, and the price of energy went up ten fold. There will not be a can of food to fight over, it will all be eaten in the first week. The trees that will be cut this year for next winter's heat will change the land, and spread the drought. The price of grain is up 50% to 70% worldwide this year, and next? <br /> <br />Food supplies, and National Guard armories, will be looted. This will stop the flow of food and energy coming in. As soon as next winter with no food or fuel? <br /> <br />In the New Orleans flood the only thing of value was bottled water. 1500 died from lack of water, in a week. <br /> <br />Nature is getting ready to do it's part. Over thousands of years you could set your watch by the New Madrid Quake, every 200 years, and it is a big one. It is right in the middle, and all food, oil, gas, power, flow through there. It is starting up now, and will lead to a big one that the last continued for months. Waterfalls formed in the Mississippi, in places it ran backward. <br /> <br />Crops will not be harvested, stored, transported, and we have no surplus stored. Imported at a price, will take several months by ship. Road, rail, barge traffic will cease. Just restoring power might take a few years, and you have to wait till the ground stops shaking. <br /> <br />It will be the beginning of Winter, and suddenly, blackout over the East Coast, with no food or fuel coming in. New York will be out of food in three days. The water will stop flowing, all depending on power and computers. I doubt they will last till New Year's. <br /> <br />Those who get out will overburden every support system, and those who stay and survive will be the cannibals. The wealth of the world will become frozen when Wall Street goes dark, the major banks. Two and a half years later New Orleans is just as it was when the water was pumped out. <br /> <br />I do keep bottled water, MRE's, and a backpack. I could get several hundred miles. There is not much around here. I got out before the flood, had cash, and bought food and gas. It took six weeks to get back home. Everyone became unemployed in a day. <br /> <br />We were 500,000, and the rest of the country was still running. There was water, food, gas, a hundred miles away. <br /> <br />The land is fragile, but tough. Human economy is just fragile. The last lilly is blocking the last sunlight that kept the pond alive. <br /> <br />Mad Max was a movie, where did the food, water, fuel, spare parts come from? They will be on foot, and cannot survive more than a few days from water. The desert has high water needs, and few can cross it. <br /> <br />The Mad Max farmers could not have fed a tenth of their population. It was a movie set. <br /> <br />Those who will die are called customers. Without markets people do not produce. What is produced will be for export, people who can pay in oil. <br /> <br />The Black Death increased wages and lowered costs. There were houses and lands for the taking. Higher wages lead to developing technology, to afford higher labor. Property values dropped so wealth could be invested in improving the lands. The Fifteenth Century was much better than the Tenth. <br /> <br />I see this like the Plague, which came one winter, and killed half the people. By spring it was gone, and those who wintered in the country came back to find they could have a much better house and lands. The land lay fallow, and gained fertility, the catte ate and grew. <br /> <br />I had a place to go when New Orleans flooded, and I did come back. Those with no place to go are still gone, starting over somewhere else. 250,000 gone forever. 100,000,000 gone forever would be better. <br /> <br />The desert is a fight with excess energy. Water is the key ingredient. Only those who know where the water is can travel the land. Only those who know where they are going can get there. You cannot besiege a desert town without water, and no one on foot can carry much. Defenders have a natural three to one advantage, and more so in hostile country. Attackers have to get in, defenders only have to wait. <br /> <br />Some need a full time home, and would put up with the summers. Others would like a winter home, where it is warm and sunny, and still others, a place to go when it all falls apart. Still others, and the same as above, would want an investment backed with basic value. Housing is not good, comparing the market to the devalued dollar, the market is way down, and falling. Raw land is useless, developed land is not. <br /> <br />Developed land has value added that will keep it's value up, no matter what the economy. it is disaster and depression proof. Both the value in the land and in what is built is preserved to investors and builders. It will take energy to start it, but after a couple of years, the main increase is the land responding to care and water. <br /> <br />Where costs are quickly recovered, capital is invested in the land next door. It is close to production and labor, and has one wall built. Our income is use, it costs to be anywhere. So it comes with a built in income that recovers cost, and expands. <br /> <br />This is planned for a Freehold, paid for, but there is nothing to stop anyone from buying their own land nearby. I am sure there would be community support for the idea. Where there is value the surrounding area gains value, and what will this be worth in ten, twenty, fifty years? <br /> <br />I am going to almost retire, leave but keep working. An acre is large to me. Those who can bring their income with them can do well. People on Social Security will be rich. The rest is up to the people. Some want seclusion, some work, business. A low cost base with potential support, others who are looking for work, and it is an economy. <br /> <br />I bring money from out in the world to me, and I have nothing to spend it on but more means of production. The problem is, I have used my time, to the point where I am creating employment. <br /> <br />To rise, you must bring up those around you. <br /> <br />I am the lilly pond, my world is full, I must make someone else a lilly pond, and us two more. <br /> <br />The saying, "There is always room at the top." is very true. <br /> <br />I enjoy working, it is the best thing I do. Social isolation does not mean economic isolation. <br /> <br />We are alone in a crowd, but there is a crowd of us. <br /> <br />I too think you write well.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>krex</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://wrongplanet.cachefly.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:10 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">OK. <br /> <br />I keep trying to check out your anthroponomy site but it wont load, so I can neither agree nor disagree with your truth. <br /> <br />So here is my truth. Humans are parasites. We take and offer the planet nothing back that any shitting/dying animal could not provide. The earth can and will save itself when we are gone or low enough in numbers to do no large damage. With a few natural disasters it maybe able to shake us off without our assistence. Time is on it's side. Can humans evolve(or have they in us) enough to survive in peace with the planet ? Maybe, if our numbers were reduced but we already have enough weapons to do lot of damage and enough insanity to use them. If we hade our numbers down by 10% there would still be some crazy person who could figure out how to launch those weapons. Perhaps the planet could even heal with this and time... <br /> <br /> <br />I never meant to claim we were going to save the planet or change the eco-system by living in the dessert. I just thought it would be healthier to be away from toxic humans as much as possible. Are there better locations? None that I can afford. I have thought it would be interesting to join a survivalist group but the only ones I know of seem to be Nazis or religious, so I probably wouldn't get along well with them. If there was such a place for aspies, I would check it out. <br /> <br />My inability to survive in a mad max world has nothing to do with morality as I see morality. I'm not sure I even understand that word, so maybe I'm wrong. My objection is just that I don't believe (and I could be wrong, I have survived a lot), that I have the personal strength to kill. I'm more rabbit then wolf. I don't know that for sure unless I was cornered...sometimes I think my beast is not buried that far below the surface....Some days feel like I am nothing but claws and teeth, perhaps that is why buried it? What if I liked it? Mostly I think seeing something suffer hurts more then suffering myself. I'm very unclear about this and hope I don;t have to find out as either would mean pain. <br /> <br /> <br />Anyway, I think you have the impression that I think your wrong. I don't know enough to know what is right...I'm still learning.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>archetype</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://wrongplanet.cachefly.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:31 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>krex wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Beautiful poetry in the first part of your post, thanks for that. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />My pleasure that you appreciated it. I was a poet that day. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>krex wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Mad Max... <br />Survival of the fittest to kill, isn't even a world I have ever been interested in surviving in. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />I wouldn't expect or want you to. <br />I can survive in such a world ... so you don't have to. You do not carry a rifle; you continue to thrive and do as you do, and I take care of everything having to do with keeping them away from you; I was born to it. <br />I would never want to see someone like you - who obviously do not want to survive in such a fashion - having to survive in such a fashion, nor do I enjoy seeing the kind of survival which is currently typical. <br /> <br />There is no need for you to tell me that you do not wish to 'survive' - in <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> world; I do battle exactly so you do not ever have to. <br /> <br />There is nothing greater for me to do. I have always done that. I have always placed myself between the injustice and ugliness and the innocent and beautiful. <br /> <br />I am powerful and fearless. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>krex wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Genuies or not, you wont change human nature or be able to kill them all. I made peace with that because the alternative was suicide.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />I cannot change human nature, no; nothing can except Nature - and Nature does ... with us. <br /> <br />But I can change human understanding and perception, and therefore their behavior. I created Anthroponomy to do exactly this. Opinions cannot accomplish that, hard fact is the only way to accomplish that. Somewhere, you must always start with a 'given'; that 'given' is never a fact, it is always a theory. It is accepted as a given, as a self-evidence, because it mirrors reality. <br /> <br />People do not like Anthroponomy because they do not <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic">want</span></span> it to be true. Anthroponomy is my very best at determining what is true ... regardless of how I feel about it. It has nothing to do with what I <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic">want</span></span> to be true. If what I wanted to be true were true, there would be no need to create Anthropnomy, no need to 'survive' in any way, and I would be thriving instead of wanting my own life and the world around it to change. <br /> <br />First, I determine exactly what the world around me is. <br />Then I know what I want to change - and how to change it. <br /> <br />This is exactly logical, exactly obvious, makes all sense, feels correct, and I cannot see how or where there can be disagreemet with it. <br /> <br />Anything else accomplishes nothing. <br /> <br />I cannot kill them all. They will kill themselves. <br /> <br />The point is to either change that inevitability ... or to very simply not be around when they do destroy themselves. <br /> <br />That is one of the purposes of the AS community; to work toward that. Both to do everything possible to change the world, and to make sure we're not around when the world slaughters itself ... since it is improbably, I believe, that we will change the world, and should therefore make all provision that this will indeed happen. But regardless of improbability, we have to try, since there is no guarantee we will be able to survive the world when it destroys itself. <br /> <br />Bit it looks like we would be able to remain essentially uneffacted. I doubt nuclear arms would be used - those in the position to use them know that they, themselves, would not survive the outcome. <br />In that light, it is far more likely - in this age of of cmmunication - that those in power would use that power not to destroy each other, but to unify together and create their own world - and use their power to keep the world out. The President and those in power in the USA are not going to go to war with those in power in China; instead, they will cooperate together, and protect themselves from the world. Those in power will not kill each other for the sake of the common man; they will renouce the 'common man' and create their own world to survive - and thrive in - while the rest of the world destroys itself. <br /> <br />That is the most intelligent thing to do, and the only way those in power can or will survive - and continue to thrive. <br /> <br />They will do this ... but <span style="font-style: italic">we</span> will not? <br />Those in power will create their own world and keep the rest of the world out - so that they can survive and prosper. <br />But <span style="font-style: italic">we</span> will not? <br />They are smarter than us, after all? <br />They have no falsity of morailty; they will survive and eat their cake and caviar. <br />But <span style="font-style: italic">we</span> will have falsity of morality ... and <span style="font-style: italic">we</span> will join the rest of the world in surviving? <br /> <br />I am
