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[quote="LeKiwi"][quote="Thomas1138"][quote]And why would you get the flu vaccine anyway?[/quote] Because about 50,000 people in the United States die from the flu every year?[/quote] No, they don't. At all. The average figure for yearly flu deaths is usually between 700-1,300, and most of those aren't verified as the actual flu virus. How about we let the BMJ explain. :) http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/331/7529/1412 [quote]BMJ 2005;331:1412 (10 December), doi:10.1136/bmj.331.7529.1412 Press [b]Are US flu death figures more PR than science?[/b] US data on influenza deaths are a mess. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) acknowledges a difference between flu death and flu associated death yet uses the terms interchangeably. Additionally, there are significant statistical incompatibilities between official estimates and national vital statistics data. Compounding these problems is a marketing of fear—a CDC communications strategy in which medical experts "predict dire outcomes" during flu seasons. The CDC website states what has become commonly accepted and widely reported in the lay and scientific press: annually "about 36 000 [Americans] die from flu" (www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease.htm) and "influenza/pneumonia" is the seventh leading cause of death in the United States (www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm). But why are flu and pneumonia bundled together? Is the relationship so strong or unique to warrant characterising them as a single cause of death? David Rosenthal, director of Harvard University Health Services, said, "People don't necessarily die, per se, of the [flu] virus—the viraemia. What they die of is a secondary pneumonia. So many of these pneumonias are not viral pneumonias but secondary [pneumonias]." But Dr Rosenthal agreed that the flu/pneumonia relationship was not unique. For instance, a recent study (JAMA 2004;292: 1955-60[Abstract/Free Full Text]) found that stomach acid suppressing drugs are associated with a higher risk of community acquired pneumonia, but such drugs and pneumonia are not compiled as a single statistic. CDC states that the historic 1968-9 "Hong Kong flu" pandemic killed 34 000 Americans. At the same time, CDC claims 36 000 Americans annually die from flu. What is going on? [b]Meanwhile, according to the CDC's National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS), "influenza and pneumonia" took 62 034 lives in 2001—61 777 of which were attributed to pneumonia and 257 to flu, and in only 18 cases was flu virus positively identified. Between 1979 and 2002, NCHS data show an average 1348 flu deaths per year (range 257 to 3006).[/b] The NCHS data would be compatible with CDC mortality estimates if about half of the deaths classed by the NCHS as pneumonia were actually flu initiated secondary pneumonias. But the NCHS criteria indicate otherwise: "Cause-of-death statistics are based solely on the underlying cause of death... defined by WHO as `the disease or injury which initiated the train of events leading directly to death.'" In a written statement, CDC media relations responded to the diverse statistics: "Typically, influenza causes death when the infection leads to severe medical complications." And as most such cases "are never tested for virus infection...CDC considers these [NCHS] figures to be a very substantial undercounting of the true number of deaths from influenza. Therefore, the CDC uses indirect modelling methods to estimate the number of deaths associated with influenza." CDC's model calculated an average annual 36 155 deaths from influenza associated underlying respiratory and circulatory causes (JAMA 2003;289: 179-86[Abstract/Free Full Text]). Less than a quarter of these (8097) were described as flu or flu associated underlying pneumonia deaths. Thus the much publicised figure of 36 000 is not an estimate of yearly flu deaths, as widely reported in both the lay and scientific press, but an estimate—generated by a model—of flu-associated death. William Thompson of the CDC's National Immunization Program (NIP), and lead author of the CDC's 2003 JAMA article, explained that "influenza-associated mortality" is "a statistical association between deaths and viral data available." He said that an association does not imply an underlying cause of death: "Based on modelling, we think it's associated. I don't know that we would say that it's the underlying cause of death." Yet this stance is incompatible with the CDC assertion that the flu kills 36 000 people a year—a misrepresentation that is yet to be publicly corrected. Before 2003 CDC said that 20 000 influenza-associated deaths occurred each year. The new figure of 36 000 reported in the January 2003 JAMA paper is an estimate of influenza-associated mortality over the 1990s. Keiji Fukuda, a flu researcher and a co-author of the paper, has been quoted as offering two possible causes for this 80% increase: "One is that the number of people older than 65 is growing larger...The second possible reason is the type of virus that predominated in the 1990s [was more virulent]." However, the 65-plus population grew just 12% between 1990 and 2000. And if flu virus was truly more virulent over the 1990s, one would expect more deaths. But flu deaths recorded by the NCHS were on average 30% lower in the 1990s than the 1980s. [b]If passed, the Flu Protection Act of 2005 will revamp US flu vaccine policy. The legislation will require CDC to pay makers for vaccines unsold "through routine market mechanisms." The bill will also require CDC to conduct a "public awareness campaign" emphasising "the safety and benefit of recommended vaccines for the public good." Yet this bill obscures the fact that CDC is already working in manufacturers' interest by conducting campaigns to increase flu vaccination. At the 2004 "National Influenza Vaccine Summit," co-sponsored by CDC and the American Medical Association, Glen Nowak, associate director for communications at the NIP, spoke on using the media to boost demand for the vaccine. One step of a "Seven-Step `Recipe' for Generating Interest in, and Demand for, Flu (or any other) Vaccination" occurs when "medical experts and public health authorities publicly...state concern and alarm (and predict dire outcomes)—and urge influenza vaccination" (www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/36/2004_flu_nowak.pdf). Another step entails "continued reports...that influenza is causing severe illness and/or affecting lots of people, helping foster the perception that many people are susceptible to a bad case of influenza."[/b] Preceding the summit, demand had been low early into the 2003 flu season. "At that point, the manufacturers were telling us that they weren't receiving a lot of orders for vaccine for use in November or even December," recalled Dr Nowak on National Public Radio. "It really did look like we needed to do something to encourage people to get a flu shot." If flu is in fact not a major cause of death, this public relations approach is surely exaggerated. Moreover, by arbitrarily linking flu with pneumonia, current data are statistically biased. Until corrected and until unbiased statistics are developed, the chances for sound discussion and public health policy are limited. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Doshi, graduate student Harvard University pdoshi@fas.harvard.edu[/quote][/quote]
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LeKiwi
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:09 am
Post subject:
roche12 wrote:
I dont waste my time going to see MDs. I know what they are going to do, they repeat what I tell them is wrong and hand me an antibiotic for something that will not kill me nor cause any life long damage.
The chicken pox shot is top of my stupid list. Most people get it when they are young and are safe for life, never have to worry that it failed to work. Now for children that are high risk of death and adults that never got it I understand why they should have it but the avg kid doesnt need it.
Here in the US they love to scream about alcohol and cigarettes killing you and leave out the huge list of chemicals they feed people. I rather enjoy that a former maker of agent orange is the current owner of aspartame and that same company is also a leader in the genetically altered seed market. Its so nice to know that they had corn deemed unsafe for human consumption they fed to cows with the purpose of feeding them to us....
You speak the truth! The scary, hilarious truth.
roche12
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:14 am
Post subject:
I dont waste my time going to see MDs. I know what they are going to do, they repeat what I tell them is wrong and hand me an antibiotic for something that will not kill me nor cause any life long damage.
The chicken pox shot is top of my stupid list. Most people get it when they are young and are safe for life, never have to worry that it failed to work. Now for children that are high risk of death and adults that never got it I understand why they should have it but the avg kid doesnt need it.
Here in the US they love to scream about alcohol and cigarettes killing you and leave out the huge list of chemicals they feed people. I rather enjoy that a former maker of agent orange is the current owner of aspartame and that same company is also a leader in the genetically altered seed market. Its so nice to know that they had corn deemed unsafe for human consumption they fed to cows with the purpose of feeding them to us....
LeKiwi
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:45 pm
Post subject:
If I asked my doctor about it she'd look at me like I'd just sprouted another head or something! She's so closed-minded, she didn't even know what Rescue Remedy was, and when I explained what it was and said how it helps me with anxiety she said "Oh it's rubbish, it doesn't do anything, it's placebo" etc. Like two minutes ago you'd never heard of the stuff, how do you know it doesn't work?! I mean, yeah, sure, it doesn't, which is why it's helped me with my anxiety disorder for so long.
Sora
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:37 pm
Post subject:
That's interesting
LeKiwi
, thank you.
I believe here where I live autistic children don't get tested for heavy metals or anything.
I'd get tested for pretty much everything including genetic testing otherwise. Just because I'm totally curious.
LeKiwi
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:22 pm
Post subject:
I know a couple of naturopathic doctors who test all children for heavy metal levels, which includes mercury. But unless it's friend's children going in for a general check-up, or for any other problem, they won't usually see the kids so it's certainly not all. And obviously only those who go to those particular naturopaths.
As I've said though, I don't think mercury alone is responsible for those kids who 'regress' and follow that pattern of 'autism' (which I'm pretty sure isn't the usual hereditary born-with-it autism most of us have). I also just don't think the flu shots are any good and have any point.
Sora
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:01 pm
Post subject:
Children here develop 'normally' at first, then manifest symptoms in a way that gets them a diagnosis of classical autism and they don't get flu shots. So, how important can that flu shot be in ASD research?
Do they test groups of non-autistic children for mercury levels nowadays?
LeKiwi
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:33 pm
Post subject:
Who are generation rescue? Sounds sort of... cult-like...
Pandora
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:47 am
Post subject:
I doubt you could take seriously anything that generationrescue has to say.
lau
Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:55 am
Post subject:
LoveableNerd wrote:
beau99 wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
Beau, mercury accumulates in ALL our bodies; it's bioaccumulative. The body can get rid of tiny amounts of it, but if you add it up and add it up it becomes a toxic overload.
Methylmercury does, yes.
But thimerosal doesn't contain methylmercury.
It contains ethyl mercury, right?
No. It metabolises to produce ethyl mercury.
A simpler link, to the lead researcher, and thence to the actual article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Burbacher
generationrescue.org have drawn conclusions from the report that are not present in the report.
LoveableNerd
Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:18 am
Post subject:
beau99 wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
Beau, mercury accumulates in ALL our bodies; it's bioaccumulative. The body can get rid of tiny amounts of it, but if you add it up and add it up it becomes a toxic overload.
Methylmercury does, yes.
But thimerosal doesn't contain methylmercury.
It contains ethyl mercury, right?
Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal.
Environmental Health Perspectives
, Aug 2005.
Thomas Burbacher, PhD [University of Washington].
This study demonstrates clearly and unequivocally that ethyl mercury, the kind of mercury found in vaccines, not only ends up in the brain, but leaves double the amount of inorganic mercury as methyl mercury, the kind of mercury found in fish. This work is groundbreaking because little is known about ethyl mercury, and many health authorities have asserted that the mercury found in vaccines is the "safe kind." This study also delivers a strong rebuke of the Institute of Medicine's recommendation in 2004 to no longer pursue the mercury-autism connection. Excerpt:
"A recently published IOM review (IOM 2004) appears to have abandoned the earlier recommendation [of studying mercury and autism] as well as back away from the American Academy of Pediatrics goal [of removing mercury from vaccines]. This approach is difficult to understand, given our current limited knowledge of the toxicokinetics and developmental neurotoxicity of thimerosal, a compound that has been (and will continue to be) injected in millions of newborns and infants."
LeKiwi
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:38 pm
Post subject:
I've never heard them called antibiotics? They're always termed 'antifungals' or fungicides, or for malaria just 'antimalarials/antimalarial drugs' when I've come across them? (My uncle had malaria after a trip to Africa so I've seen this first-hand).
You're right though, the biotic part of antibiotic refers to 'life' rather than bacteria... (Makes them sound nice eh, 'against life').
lau
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:31 pm
Post subject:
Orwell wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
"Ooh, you've got a virus, have some drugs to kill some bacteria!"
I sat in on a class at the University of Pennsylvania where the professor talked about using antibiotics against eukaryotic parasite infections (such as malaria). Now, I found out later the class was only for nursing students, but still, that's scary. This was an Ivy League school, and dangit, eukaryotes don't have cell walls for antibiotics to tear down! That's why we can take penicillin and other antibiotics without negative effects, it only kills bacteria.
It would appear that you are misinterpreting the meaning of the word "antibiotic".
The drugs used to treat malaria (a protozoan) are also termed antibiotics, as are those used to treat fungal infections.
An antibiotic is any drug that is used to treat micro-organisms.
Now, using an antibiotic that is a broad spectrum bactericide to treat malaria would sound suspicious, but is that what your professor was saying?
LeKiwi
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:51 pm
Post subject:
You'd think they'd understand such basic science as that after however many years of med-school wouldn't you? I mean, sure, if you've got a virus and it's lowered your defences and you've ended up with a nasty secondary bacterial infection that's slowly eating away at your lung/eye/arm/whatever, and your body definitely needs help to get rid of the bacteria, then sure, go ahead. But if it's just for the initial viral (or parasitic, as you said) infection then what the hell is the point?! I was told once "It's just in case you get a secondary infection"... well, firstly, no point taking them if the bacteria aren't there to kill yet in the first place, and secondly, it's just going to kill all the good bacteria, and given that a good portion of the immune system's 'power house' is in the gut too, surely that's not such a good idea? "Hello candida, come inside, yes, infect this young lady, we'll even give you a helping hand...".
Orwell
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:03 am
Post subject:
LeKiwi wrote:
"Ooh, you've got a virus, have some drugs to kill some bacteria!"
I sat in on a class at the University of Pennsylvania where the professor talked about using antibiotics against eukaryotic parasite infections (such as malaria). Now, I found out later the class was only for nursing students, but still, that's scary. This was an Ivy League school, and dangit, eukaryotes don't have cell walls for antibiotics to tear down! That's why we can take penicillin and other antibiotics without negative effects, it only kills bacteria.
LeKiwi
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:40 am
Post subject:
Orwell wrote:
GodsGadfly wrote:
all I had to do was call my cardiologist's office, and he'd prescribe me prophylactic antibiotics.
Doctors like that should be drawn and quartered publicly in front of graduating medical students. That type of crap is responsible for so many problems we're facing today with things like XDR-TB and makes life a hell of lot harder for researchers who spend their lives developing these drugs that are then made worthless because clinical practitioners refuse to exercise any discretion or responsibility in prescribing them. Clinical medicine is grunt work, the idiots who do it should at least learn to follow the instructions they're given.
Amen. If I had a pound for every un-filled prescription for antibiotics I've been given and subsequently thrown in the bin I would be one rich woman...
"Ooh, you've got a virus, have some drugs to kill some bacteria!"
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