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[quote="Magneto"]*waves hand* Yes yes, but I actually started this thread for gathering the details of those who would be interested in such a project, to map out where there are hotspots of support to be able to make a viable community. I had my own plan a while back, which begun with a school run by, and for, Aspies, the idea being that a village would grow up around it as people began Aspie friendly businesses. Lets call the village Hogsmeade :lol: The advantage with starting with a school is that you can get funding from parents and the government, as well as supporters. As I planned before, it would be very well equipped, with facilities (for example the Library) that could later be shared with the wider community.[/quote]
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<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="100%" class="forumline"> <tr> <th class="thCornerL" width="22%" height="26">Author</th> <th class="thCornerR">Message</th> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>postpaleo</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:39 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">freakin hell, wrong thread...</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Inventor</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:14 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>John_Browning wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Inventor's plan is kind of like a model of the pros and cons of an autistic workplace. If you read the politics forum you will see that a commune would appeal to many of them. However, just like in the real world, there are any holes apparent in how you would keep everyone accommodated and occupied, and having a suitable set of skills for both productivity and to fill in personal living skills that some people will inevitably be lacking. <br /> <br />It may be easy for autistics to set up all the machinery and other equipment for productivity and facility maintenance, but people are not that simple and matters regarding living arrangements and social interaction will not work like a machine or computer and should not be led by people who have little to no understanding of other people. That will require someone with knowledge of morale building and conflict resolution. Maturity will probably be the biggest Achilles heel of the whole community and will require people that can handle them authoritatively in a mature manner to motivate them to keep up their agreed share of productivity. An NT psychologist might even be required for this task. This is why I think recruiting from ASD boarding schools is a really bad idea. You would be taking in a bunch of teenagers who have severe behavior problems and maturity issues, and even if they do not qualify for a guardian or someone with power of attorney over their financial or medical decisions, they will still need to live with someone to act as a parental figure for years! <br /> <br />In true autistic form, we have discussed what it would take to provide for someone's economic needs, but also in true autistic form, we haven't touched on how to address them as people with likes, dislikes, dreams, and feelings.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Very true, In my case I claim "Social Impairment." I have taken various tests over the years, True/False, marking all True, scores 50%. A,B,C.D, all A scores 25%. <br /> <br />I have to accept that on some subjects I score Zero. <br /> <br />For the general population, moral behavior took Religion, Law, and thousands of years, just to reduce the problems caused by the Morally Impaired. Just discovery was not enough, it took public posting, readings, and the hangman's rope to get the idea across. <br /> <br />Social Impairment was never such a problem, almost all humans have a natural talent at it. <br /> <br />There are a few exceptions who keep looking for the book on Social Interaction. In general, they are Moral, Legal, even without the books, laws, structures others need. <br /> <br />The Impaired do not seem to have an evil intent, just a lack of knowledge that comes naturally to others. <br /> <br />While it is beyond my perceptual limits, I would think it could be reduced to a system, Codified, which would be understandable. <br /> <br />Much that I did not know I learned, I could learn the rules of grammer of Classical Chinese. In my travels I have gotten by, faked it in other culture and language groups. <br /> <br />While I am the least prepared to take on this work, I think it would provide value to not only the small impaired population, but being something natural that everyone takes for granted, it has never been studied. <br /> <br />From an outsiders view, I see human social behavior as being a random recycling of packets of data. I cannot make out the pattern, but I also see the same in the general population to some degree. <br /> <br />All systems have an inturnel order, patterns, rules, exceptions to rules, which can be defined. <br /> <br />I would have little problem designing a water/sewer system, or an economy, property rights, that would run for a long period. <br /> <br />I do ask questions, and when it comes to social interaction, I keep getting told it is just natural. <br /> <br />Someone else should have talents in this direction, and could define it to the extent that we who were not born understanding the Rules of Latin Grammer, can learn enough to get by. <br /> <br />"The unexamined life is not worth living." It seems that the dominate form of interaction has never been examined?</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>John_Browning</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:43 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>greengeek wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">The UN headquarters would be in it but not running it, as the lack of ease of leaving and entering the United States is why they thought about moving out of the country.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />The US would still have a say about what crosses it's airspace unless they sign a treaty or put this community on the coast and it's big enough to claim a little corridor of territorial waters and airspace adjacent to international waters and airspace.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>greengeek</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:07 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>John_Browning wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>greengeek wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">I bet the UN would be happy if the micronation included their headquarters and one of NYC's airports, as they have thought about leaving the country, as it's so hard to get in the country.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />The UN couldn't run a treehouse club. You would be mired down in more red tape than you would believe and they would sell your best interests out as soon as someone with more money and conflicting interests bought off officials. And without the protection of being in the jurisdiction of the US, the UN/autism micronation better be very well armed! <img src="modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_twisted.gif" alt="Twisted Evil" border="0" /> Oh wait, they'd insist you ban all private guns and send in poorly trained overseas thugs in blue helmets who have already committed human rights violations to come "provide security" for you! <br /> <br />It wouldn't be long before you were sympathetic to all the people that come looking to bag a blue helmet as a prize to mount over their fireplace.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br /> <br />The UN headquarters would be in it but not running it, as the lack of ease of leaving and entering the United States is why they thought about moving out of the country.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Gedrene</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:32 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Delirium wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>John_Browning wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Inventor's plan is kind of like a model of the pros and cons of an autistic workplace. If you read the politics forum you will see that a commune would appeal to many of them. However, just like in the real world, there are any holes apparent in how you would keep everyone accommodated and occupied, and having a suitable set of skills for both productivity and to fill in personal living skills that some people will inevitably be lacking. <br /> <br />It may be easy for autistics to set up all the machinery and other equipment for productivity and facility maintenance, but people are not that simple and matters regarding living arrangements and social interaction will not work like a machine or computer and should not be led by people who have little to no understanding of other people. That will require someone with knowledge of morale building and conflict resolution. Maturity will probably be the biggest Achilles heel of the whole community and will require people that can handle them authoritatively in a mature manner to motivate them to keep up their agreed share of productivity. An NT psychologist might even be required for this task. This is why I think recruiting from ASD boarding schools is a really bad idea. You would be taking in a bunch of teenagers who have severe behavior problems and maturity issues, and even if they do not qualify for a guardian or someone with power of attorney over their financial or medical decisions, they will still need to live with someone to act as a parental figure for years! <br /> <br />In true autistic form, we have discussed what it would take to provide for someone's economic needs, but also in true autistic form, we haven't touched on how to address them as people with likes, dislikes, dreams, and feelings.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />This. <br /> <br />Am I the only one who can't help but think of Rapture (from Bioshock)?</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />I was thinking more an insane mix of free market and a neediness for 'NT's'. These guys are hilarious. HEY GUIZE! FREE MARKET+LOTS OF THERAPEE!</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Delirium</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:10 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>John_Browning wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Inventor's plan is kind of like a model of the pros and cons of an autistic workplace. If you read the politics forum you will see that a commune would appeal to many of them. However, just like in the real world, there are any holes apparent in how you would keep everyone accommodated and occupied, and having a suitable set of skills for both productivity and to fill in personal living skills that some people will inevitably be lacking. <br /> <br />It may be easy for autistics to set up all the machinery and other equipment for productivity and facility maintenance, but people are not that simple and matters regarding living arrangements and social interaction will not work like a machine or computer and should not be led by people who have little to no understanding of other people. That will require someone with knowledge of morale building and conflict resolution. Maturity will probably be the biggest Achilles heel of the whole community and will require people that can handle them authoritatively in a mature manner to motivate them to keep up their agreed share of productivity. An NT psychologist might even be required for this task. This is why I think recruiting from ASD boarding schools is a really bad idea. You would be taking in a bunch of teenagers who have severe behavior problems and maturity issues, and even if they do not qualify for a guardian or someone with power of attorney over their financial or medical decisions, they will still need to live with someone to act as a parental figure for years! <br /> <br />In true autistic form, we have discussed what it would take to provide for someone's economic needs, but also in true autistic form, we haven't touched on how to address them as people with likes, dislikes, dreams, and feelings.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />This. <br /> <br />Am I the only one who can't help but think of Rapture (from Bioshock)?</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>John_Browning</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:38 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>greengeek wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">I bet the UN would be happy if the micronation included their headquarters and one of NYC's airports, as they have thought about leaving the country, as it's so hard to get in the country.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />The UN couldn't run a treehouse club. You would be mired down in more red tape than you would believe and they would sell your best interests out as soon as someone with more money and conflicting interests bought off officials. And without the protection of being in the jurisdiction of the US, the UN/autism micronation better be very well armed! <img src="modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_twisted.gif" alt="Twisted Evil" border="0" /> Oh wait, they'd insist you ban all private guns and send in poorly trained overseas thugs in blue helmets who have already committed human rights violations to come "provide security" for you! <br /> <br />It wouldn't be long before you were sympathetic to all the people that come looking to bag a blue helmet as a prize to mount over their fireplace.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>greengeek</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:11 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">I bet the UN would be happy if the micronation included their headquarters and one of NYC's airports, as they have thought about leaving the country, as it's so hard to get in the country.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>John_Browning</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:28 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Inventor's plan is kind of like a model of the pros and cons of an autistic workplace. If you read the politics forum you will see that a commune would appeal to many of them. However, just like in the real world, there are any holes apparent in how you would keep everyone accommodated and occupied, and having a suitable set of skills for both productivity and to fill in personal living skills that some people will inevitably be lacking. <br /> <br />It may be easy for autistics to set up all the machinery and other equipment for productivity and facility maintenance, but people are not that simple and matters regarding living arrangements and social interaction will not work like a machine or computer and should not be led by people who have little to no understanding of other people. That will require someone with knowledge of morale building and conflict resolution. Maturity will probably be the biggest Achilles heel of the whole community and will require people that can handle them authoritatively in a mature manner to motivate them to keep up their agreed share of productivity. An NT psychologist might even be required for this task. This is why I think recruiting from ASD boarding schools is a really bad idea. You would be taking in a bunch of teenagers who have severe behavior problems and maturity issues, and even if they do not qualify for a guardian or someone with power of attorney over their financial or medical decisions, they will still need to live with someone to act as a parental figure for years! <br /> <br />In true autistic form, we have discussed what it would take to provide for someone's economic needs, but also in true autistic form, we haven't touched on how to address them as people with likes, dislikes, dreams, and feelings.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Gedrene</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:47 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> I am not a belever in "Economic Evolution." That was the view of Karl Marx. </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Karl Marx isn't the only one who believed economies evolved you moron. Even the most daft should realise that economies change because everything changes. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Economic equality through State Ownership of everything, no more private property, and those who labored and saved, invested, will now do it for the Glory of The State! They will continue running their business, but now under the direction of Worker Communes.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> Oh quit with your whining already and stop trying to call me a communist when you of course didn't try to actually read what I said. I said large wealth disparities are a drag on economies. You keep trying to live in some black and white universe of two decisions, communism or capitalism. You have no sense of understanding about the issue I said because you have no sense of imagination and you only want the argument to go in your direction. <br /> <br /> I said wealth disparities not common ownership and wealth distribution. Quit trying to mold the argument in to your pyoty-philosophical mould. Quit putting words in my mouth and stop telling my Grandma to suck eggs.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Inventor</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:13 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">I am not a belever in "Economic Evolution." That was the view of Karl Marx. <br /> <br />Economic equality through State Ownership of everything, no more private property, and those who labored and saved, invested, will now do it for the Glory of The State! They will continue running their business, but now under the direction of Worker Communes. <br /> <br />Where the productive become slaves of the state, people seek freedom by doing as little as possible. <br /> <br />Socialism works, until you run out of other people's money. <br /> <br />Then it returns to those who labor and produce eat, and those who depend on the government do not. All governments fall. As they do money becomes worthless, the cost of running the state ever higher, taxes exceed the profit from labor, savings are stolen by the state, for the war business. <br /> <br />There are only two paths, working for your own self interest, and keeping whatever you produce, or having an all powerful state that takes everything produced, uses half to support it's self, a quarter to raise an army/police to defend it's self from the people, and the rest gets spent on programs to control the population. <br /> <br />Government is defended by those who have been made dependant on it. They are lead to demand more government programs, so the government can steal more from the productive. <br /> <br />There comes a point where a dollar stolen by government takes ten out of the economy, and this lack of wealth in the hands of the people causes mass unemployment, the decline in value of all things, houses, savings, investments, till government debt is four times income, and more than all production in the nation. <br /> <br />It is a well worn path through history.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Gedrene</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:10 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">When everyone is economically equal, they are all poor, and getting poorer. <br /> <br />No one would have a surplus to invest, and just having a surplus would be enough reason for others to claim it.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br /> <br />Eurgh you didn't get what I said at all. Again you tried to frame what I said within an existing tired ideological framework with no reference to reality. I said no massive wealth disparities need exist. <br />Then you go on about how I must be a socialist with infuriating self-righteousness. You don't get what I said because imagining outside the box is too difficult for you. It could shatter your preconceptions. <br />It is funny that you say about how only several monopolies have existed in the history of your country. Well It's lovely to know that you are unequivocably ignorant of how criminality in businesses occurs. General motors, News International, the Big four of Oil. They may not be strictly monopolies but only a defensive fool would look at strict monopolies anyway because they happen so rarely. Microsoft even. Guess what, they have all been douches. <br /> <br /> But monopoly isn't even why I came on here. Why I came on here is that you couldn't imagine a society where the difference between top dogs and underdogs ae a million miles apart without calling me a socialist. Of course I don't believe in socialism you twit. I don't need you to mindlessly presume that I am somehow part of a diametrically opposed force to you. What I am saying is that your attempt to presume that there will always be huge disparities of wealth is absolutely stupid. In the past much of the society lived on subsistence. Now they don't. Again you try to frame this change in absolutely mindless subjective statements like what percentage was poor. The only thing that makes large disparities of wealth necessary is the whinging of mindless nutballs like you. <br /> <br /> If anything the existence of poor people is the sign of an economy that will eventually ram in to a wall because of its structural and social weaknesses. If it were the case that men lay around idle without opportunity within reach whilst in reach of grinding poverty it is the sign of a society that cannot utilize people effectively. Your sort of old fashioned kill-the-commies capitalism is based on weird principles of an indestrutible and unfathomably oversized economic hierarchy, one that only suits in this era trenchant anti-competitive CEOs, slick and unlovely dynasty builders, speculators with big bonuses and a horde of Americans from the economically disparate AND poorer deep south. Attempting to try and call my pointing out of your narrow-mindedness socialism is something many people from there would do and there it only reveals that they have no form of self-moderation, which given the atrocious levels of obesity, high divorce rates, higher level of crime and insistence on backward thinking is actually quite in evidence. <br /> <br /> Also stop trying to sound expressive. Your nothing changes statement is an attempt to use laconic phrase that fails to actually say anything mostly because it isn't true. Everything Changes. Two centuries ago the wealth you see in today's elite would be unimagniable. So saying the gap wont ineveitable close as the economy evolves only suits ochlocracy.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Inventor</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:28 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">When everyone is economically equal, they are all poor, and getting poorer. <br /> <br />No one would have a surplus to invest, and just having a surplus would be enough reason for others to claim it. <br /> <br />"Money and talent will move toward freedom, Ibn Khaldun, 1300. <br /> <br />That has played out in Great Britian since they turned Socialist, and the ambitious have found their way to America. <br /> <br />Here half of all employment is produced by small business. We invest in our selves, and in each other. There are no protected monopolies, hardly a company that has lasted fifty years, and that in name only. <br /> <br />The equality of Socialist Reality is that everyone takes for a living, and their demands for more are endless. They form a Union of the non productive, and the very thought of people being productive and keeping the result of their labor becomes a High Crime. <br /> <br />Our deserving poor, the aged and disabled are supported. We have programs of unemployment, for those who were employed, and food security for all. We do not support a large class of people who chose not to work, then form Unions to demand raises. <br /> <br />The wealth of America is new money, made by people who have recent ancestors who were factory hands, or dirt farmers. They worked, learned, and bettered themselves. Our whole culture is based on the productive person, staying involved, and we do not retire well. <br /> <br />I am offering a path to retire, and stay active, while leaving the space for the young to have their turn. It also gives the disabled, who have been excluded, a chance to learn and join the economy. It is not being imposed on them, it is a take it or leave it offer. Counting lower cost of living, and productive work, they can improve their economic outlook with their own hands and minds. <br /> <br />It is the kind of choice that a free people acting in enlightened self interest would chose. <br /> <br />It beats the redistrabution of a declining income to a growing population. <br /> <br />The Soviets caved in, China has taken half of the capitalist road, only Britan is left thinking that giving people their living will not lead to them taking more, and burning down the shops while they are at it. <br /> <br />150 years ago England was 90% poor, 50 years ago 10% poor, things did get better, but they worked for it. Socialist Reality does work, equality comes rapidly when the monied and talented leave. <br /> <br />Nothing changes.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Gedrene</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:04 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Inventor wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Justifying? Wealth and poverty exist, and at least wealth can be useful. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />That doesn't even tackle what I said at all. I said disparities of wealth not wealth and poverty. Wealth and poverty are ultimately subjective terms that change with the times. Also, the Nothing Changes comment, that's a load of rubbish. In the past much of the population lived near subsistence in Britain. Now they don't. <br /> <br />In the past the Lorenz Curve in the UK was far more unequal. Now it isn't. Things change. That's the nature of the universe. Don't like it? Go to another universe, preferably one without a time dimension before you make another impotent truism. <br /> <br /> It has been the prerogative of well-intentioned dumbos to somehow paste over the reality of the world with badly thought out and unintentionally asinine comments. That sort of fatalism expressed in the phrase <span style="font-style: italic">nothing changes</span> would best be expressed by an Ancient Greek cult leader talking about the concept of hubris, and not a man who presumes to have a well-worked out plan for the future of a whole people. <br /> <br /> Your hankering to a worn out ideological wailing about how extreme disaprities of wealth being the indicator of a good economy is the sign of an imagination that narrows itself. It's just plain confirmation bias.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Inventor</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:38 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Justifying? Wealth and poverty exist, and at least wealth can be useful. <br /> <br />Nothing changes. <br /> <br />"He who subdues or surpasses mankind, must look down upon their wrath." Alexander the Great <br /> <br />As a Capitalist, I see how to best meet the needs of the Deserving Poor, those who by age or disability are disadvantaged. I seek the least invasive method to assure them of a roof over their head, and food on the table. I protect their Liberty as I protect my own, for they are one and the same. <br /> <br />At least in America this is the social goal. I think it is good, and not the best that can be done. A large government sending out checks consumes a lot of the tax payer funds that were for the support of the old and disabled. The government cannot provide the services needed by any one person. <br /> <br />The current method leaves all the people at a disadvantage, for they are spread through the country, and cannot combine their position to better their lives as a group. By themselves they cannot afford the rent, and eating, which causes them to have to live in the low rent district, which is inhabited by The Undeserving Poor. They become subject to the lawlessness of that group. Poverty is mostly self inflicted. <br /> <br />I would free the aged and disabled from living with low community standards, and provide the oppertunity for them to be productive citizens. I see them as a resource, that can better their own lives, self help on a local scale for all of the things government could never do. <br /> <br />I also see that besides taking care of their own needs, they can produce a surplus for export to the larger community, and in some cases, have the creativity to produce goods and services new to the entire economy. <br /> <br />Currently they are an expense, which we will continue paying. We will pay it even if they find a better way to live. <br /> <br />What is new is thier ability to produce and add to the overall economy, which the current system makes impossible. Most new products sell, for a year or two, few last five years. Most companies follow the same path. Our economy is based on Creative Destruction. <br /> <br />The aged and disabled can produce products that could not be produced in the general economy. They have no overhead, and only materials cost and their own labor, but sold into the economy create wealth. <br /> <br />While the GDP is near flat, the aged and disabled are a large and growing group, perhaps a third of the population, who could add a few percent to the total output of goods and services. A GDP growing at 5% leads to full employment. 1/2% added to the GDP would exceed the cost of maintaining the aged and disabled. <br /> <br />Nothing will reduce the cost to the government/tax payer directly. Projected costs are growing. What I am proposing is the aged and disabled get more mileage from the pitance they recieve, and a chance to supplement their income. <br /> <br />It will move them away from a higher cost of living, and as they have retirement and healthcare, some a lifetime of skills, They would be well positioned to attract business looking for a part time low cost skilled workforce. <br /> <br />Currently all of this potential value is being wasted. When 45 million war babies retire over the next decade, something has to be done to remove them from the workforce, or the young will never get jobs and develop lives. <br /> <br />If they are going to keep living forever, they need to take a new role supporting the economy.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> </table>
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