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[quote="Apple_in_my_Eye"][quote="RikersBeard"]I do sympathize with transsexuals, but, like 95% of the human race I cannot accept you, rationally or emotionally, as anything other than transsexuals, not the gender you "feel" you are. I think it's rather brutal the way the medical community treat gender dysphoria. It is, in my mind, a mental illness and should be treated as such with psychological techniques, but we don't even try anymore for fear of upsetting post-ops. So they sell you a nice wedge of false hope and mutilate you. Good job guys. As my signature suggests, it is often better to face reality head on.[/quote] Historically, all attempts at treating GID with therapy have failed. There have been 70 years of attempts to do so. The decision to treat with transition was made due to psych professionals not being able to figure out what else to do to keep their patients from killing themselves. It has nothing to do with "upsetting post-ops." The suicide rate is reputed to be about 50% (though I have not seen really solid studies on that number). [quote]Wedge of false hope?[/quote] I'm going to guess that you are envisioning a stereotypical man-in-a-dress with 5 o'clock shadow trying act feminine. Like Mr. Garrison on South Park. There are plenty, especially those who transition young (or even have an intersex condition so that they already looked like their target gender) who are indistinguishable from "normal people." You're already accepting them, you just don't know it. Some others who can't pass find that they still prefer to be transitioned despite all the ill treatment, ignorance, and crap they receive. IIRC, the rate of de-transitioning is less than 10%. Also, the fact is that most transsexuals do not transition. They find other ways to cope. Those for whom that isn't enough are the minority who end up on the transition track. And in order to end up on that track a person has to undergo at least a year of therapy. They also have to spend a year (or two) of being able to "pass" as their target gender. That means being able to work, having a social life, and not having serious psychological or adjustment problems. If they can't function in their target gender, they do not get medical approval to go forward. The medical protocol (called "WPATH") is designed to make transition the last resort. [quote]I think it's rather brutal the way the medical community treat gender dysphoria.[/quote] It doesn't sound like you actually know what the medical community does. As far as "facing reality," that's the same kind of thinking that lead to homosexuality being in the DSM. It's obviously "reality" that people can only really be heterosexual. Doesn't someone's being gay just *seem* psychological? It does, but only if you assume that other people are exactly like yourself on the inside. It's a kind of cognitive arrogance that leads to flawed reasoning and illogical conclusions.[/quote]
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diniesaur
Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:19 pm
Post subject:
That's great, Hexagon! I want to headbutt you right now (that's one of my signs of strong happiness directed toward a person). I'm really glad they accept you, and I like your response to the ignorant people.
Hexagon
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:37 am
Post subject:
Transphobe: I can't accept transsexuals as the gender they say the are because it doesn't feel right
I'm not going to structure a general response to this one, as these people are beyond hope. I'll just point out this one thing: Since the day I transitioned, I have never been mistaken for a girl. Not ever. Ever. I'm not even on hormones yet. Back when I lived as female, people never accepted me as one. It never felt right, for me or them. Now, I live stealth, and no one knows. This is the exact reason why I don't bother telling people, because the majority of the population feels this way. But they can't say it doesn't feel right to me, because I know damn well it does.
RikersBeard wrote:
I do sympathize with transsexuals, but, like 95% of the human race I cannot accept you, rationally or emotionally, as anything other than transsexuals, not the gender you "feel" you are. I think it's rather brutal the way the medical community treat gender dysphoria. It is, in my mind, a mental illness and should be treated as such with psychological techniques, but we don't even try anymore for fear of upsetting post-ops. So they sell you a nice wedge of false hope and mutilate you. Good job guys.
As my signature suggests, it is often better to face reality head on.
Yes, thats exactly why I don't tell people. Its not a mental illness, as any specialist in the area will tell you, and it hasn't ever been cured by psychological techniques. And FYI, they always do try before letting you have proper treatment. And its not false hope, its reality. Not your idea of it, which would lead to a 90% suicide rate.
DiscardedWhisper
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:05 am
Post subject:
People like RikersBeard apply to this bizarre philosophy that if they don't like something, all they have to do is deny it exists as hard as they can until the very fabric of reality re-weaves itself to fit their proclivities. They're sadly mistaken, of course. But it's not usually worth the trouble arguing with someone like that. If there's honestly anything phobic about him, it's probably some fear that he'll find a MtF attractive, and subsequently will throw his inherent manliness into question. As well as his heterosexuality because every dogged uber manly-man like him knows that straightness and manliness are completely synonymous. And if you think that kind of attitude is annoying in an internet poster, imagine having to live with someone like that... >_<
Honestly, I wish I had more to add. But I really just wanted to emphasize the ignorance RikersBeard is displaying here.
CrazyCatLord
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:20 pm
Post subject: Re: XFilesGeek's Guide to Transphobia!
iceveela wrote:
Transphobe: "But a person with a Y-chromosome is still technically male! and a person with two X chromosomes in female!"
With the exception of people who have:
Swyers syndrome
XXY chromosomes (Klinefelter syndrome)
XXXY chromosomes
XO chromosomes (turners syndrome)
there is also:
XYY
XXX
XXXX
De La Chapelle syndrome
XXXY
XXXXY
XXYY
And genetalia is a whole different ballgame
You have normal genetalia
deformed genetalia,
very small genetalia
a penis with a slit in it
a penis with a small hole below it
no genetalia at all
Also according to my biology textbook and just about every description so far, women can bear offspring or produce eggs, while men produce spermatozoa. XY and XX are not mentioned in there, and since I cannot do either of the things mentioned above, I guess I am neither a male OR a female... but I guess this description also states that:
infertile women
women/men who had to get their reproductive parts removed
infertile men
or anyone with a deformed parts causing them to be unable to produce eggs or sperm
So the whole "male vs female" thing has always confused me... as science never really backed up what exactly these things mentioned above are... is XXY male because of the Y, or female due to the XX? transphobes always confuse me when they try to talk science.
There is a lot of people with no gender or undefined gender out there...
^^^ This.
Btw, all of these things happen in nature (I always wonder why transphobes and homophobes exclude humans when they talk about nature). Homo- and bisexuality, opposite-sex behavior, and intersex conditions have all been observed in many non-human animal species.
CrazyCatLord
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:12 pm
Post subject:
RikersBeard wrote:
I do sympathize with transsexuals, but, like 95% of the human race I cannot accept you, rationally or emotionally, as anything other than transsexuals, not the gender you "feel" you are. I think it's rather brutal the way the medical community treat gender dysphoria. It is, in my mind, a mental illness and should be treated as such with psychological techniques, but we don't even try anymore for fear of upsetting post-ops. So they sell you a nice wedge of false hope and mutilate you. Good job guys.
As my signature suggests, it is often better to face reality head on.
That's not reality. It's an oversimplified black & white world view.
The reality is that both morphological and neurological gender traits, as well as hormone levels, vary greatly between individuals. As a result, mammalian gender is on a spectrum. The only reason that most specimen are somewhere near the two ends of the spectrum is sexual selection. Males select for particularly feminine partners, whereas females select for very masculine partners.
But there will always be individuals who are closer to the middle of the spectrum, as well as people who possess neurological and morphological traits that are on opposite sides of the spectrum. This can't be "treated with psychological techniques". Psychology is a pseudo-science that cannot change neurological traits.
just-lou
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:39 am
Post subject:
Quote:
True, the surgery has come a long way in recent years, but I wasn't talking about that kind of day-to-day acceptance, that's easy. I meant the only kind of acceptance they really care about, that romantic acceptance, that will to be desired and loved as men or women, not as a "person-of-anomalous-sex".
So, never met a genderqueer person or a gender-neutral person, for whom this is their very aim? To be free of being boxed as male, or female? Or, crazier still, an ASEXUAL genderqueer who has absolutely no interest in romance? Whose interest is in this day-to-day gender freedom?
Other than that, I'll shut up because I've no interest in getting into a debate or trying to educate people who don't care.
iceveela
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:39 pm
Post subject:
Transphobe: "Transsexual isn't natural and doesn't happen in nature!!"
Neither does airconditioner, showers, television, clothes, glasses, football, or anything like that... maybe we should go back to living like all natural cave-men
iceveela
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:55 pm
Post subject: Re: XFilesGeek's Guide to Transphobia!
Transphobe: "But a person with a Y-chromosome is still technically male! and a person with two X chromosomes in female!"
With the exception of people who have:
Swyers syndrome
XXY chromosomes (Klinefelter syndrome)
XXXY chromosomes
XO chromosomes (turners syndrome)
there is also:
XYY
XXX
XXXX
De La Chapelle syndrome
XXXY
XXXXY
XXYY
And genetalia is a whole different ballgame
You have normal genetalia
deformed genetalia,
very small genetalia
a penis with a slit in it
a penis with a small hole below it
no genetalia at all
Also according to my biology textbook and just about every description so far, women can bear offspring or produce eggs, while men produce spermatozoa. XY and XX are not mentioned in there, and since I cannot do either of the things mentioned above, I guess I am neither a male OR a female... but I guess this description also states that:
infertile women
women/men who had to get their reproductive parts removed
infertile men
or anyone with a deformed parts causing them to be unable to produce eggs or sperm
So the whole "male vs female" thing has always confused me... as science never really backed up what exactly these things mentioned above are... is XXY male because of the Y, or female due to the XX? transphobes always confuse me when they try to talk science.
There is a lot of people with no gender or undefined gender out there...
dogslife
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:05 pm
Post subject:
RikersBeard wrote:
Quote:
By being a transphobe, you are a part of the very environment that causes pain, suffering, discrimination, and death to people with transgenderism.
Oh don't be silly, just because I don't automatically lap up the nonsense on sex & gender spouted by trans folk, doesn't mean I'm raining death down upon them.
Actually, it does. The reason people murder us is because of other people, like you, saying we're full of nonsense, etc. and perpetuating the "mutilation"/"psycho" myths. Congratulations on actively contributing to life being so hard for an oppressed minority.
Go XFilesGeek, by the way - thanks for taking the time to write these out!
mizplazed
Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:22 pm
Post subject:
Go, winter breaks and boredom--it's why I'm here and reading.
Good reporting and succinct writing, OP. Nice to include the DOI numbers for in-depth reading.
I would also throw in some reporting on cultural and economic biases. Those binary gender systems aren't going to self-report on themselves.
XFilesGeek
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:53 am
Post subject:
Coffee's running out. Last post for today.
Transphobe: "Gender Identity Disorder is a psychological problem, not a medical problem! It needs to be cured by therapy."
This is a classic example of people picking and choosing the "facts" that they wish to believe.
From a recent study:
Quote:
Antonio Guillamon's team at the National University of Distance Education in Madrid, Spain, think they have found a better way to spot a transsexual brain. In a study due to be published next month, the team ran MRI scans on the brains of 18 female-to-male transsexual people who'd had no treatment and compared them with those of 24 males and 19 females.
They found significant differences between male and female brains in four regions of white matter – and the female-to-male transsexual people had white matter in these regions that resembled a male brain (Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.05.006). "It's the first time it has been shown that the brains of female-to-male transsexual people are masculinised," Guillamon says.
In a separate study, the team used the same technique to compare white matter in 18 male-to-female transsexual people with that in 19 males and 19 females. Surprisingly, in each transsexual person's brain the structure of the white matter in the four regions was halfway between that of the males and females (Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.11.007). "Their brains are not completely masculinised and not completely feminised, but they still feel female," says Guillamon.
Source:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html
It would seem to suggest that "therapy" has about as much chance at "curing" transgenderism as it does "curing" autism. Neurology and brain-wiring are linked to behavior. You cannot simply change brain-structure through sheer force of will.
As for people who would suggest TGs should undergo radical brain surgery, or take mind-altering drugs in an attempt to "fix" their brains, I would humbly suggest that altering a person's brain is much more complicated and risky than altering their physical appearance to match their brain. Plus, there's no valid reason NOT to alter their physical bodies in the first place.
And if we can tell TGs they should simply "fix" their brains to match what society finds "acceptable," why should we not demand the same for autistics (or any other group of people who's benign behavior society finds "undesirable")?
Lastly, and this goes back to my previous argument, there's no particular reason not to include "brains" as reliable physical markers for gender. A brains is no less of an arbitrary physical indicator of "gender" than either chromosomes or genitalia. I can't overstate how amusing I find it that humans are so willing to disregard "brains" simply because we can not "see" them in everyday life.
"Curing" TG brains isn't much different from "curing" autistic brains.
Tootles.
XFilesGeek
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:34 am
Post subject:
And more for Tuesday.....
Transphobe: "I'm against sex-reassignment because it's dangerous!"
Oh, bless your dear heart......you're being concerned for my welfare warms me to the marrow. It's too bad you're full of sh!t.
If we do a little fancy math and compare the statistics of people who perish on account of getting sex-reassignment surgery with the numbers of how many people die, get maimed, and/or kill and maim others in automobile accidents, I'm sure we'll see that the numbers of TGs who bite the dust under the scalpel is relatively small by comparison.
Are you also "against" people driving cars? Are you "against" people flying in planes? Are you "against" people participating in full-contact sports wherein they might suffer broken bones, concussions, or even death? I thought not.
Seeing as how SRS (sex-reassignment surgery) is a conscious decision made by an individual who has undergone many months of psychiatric care, and it puts no one else at risk besides the person having the surgery, the potential "danger" is not a reason to "oppose" it, unless you're willing to "oppose" other much more dangerous activities out of your apparent boundless love and caring for other people.
XFilesGeek
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:19 am
Post subject:
Alrighty.....
Who's ready for some more fun? I am!
Transphobe: "Transsexual isn't natural and doesn't happen in nature!!"
The term "natural" is a big, sexy word isn't it?
I've noticed this argument finds favor in atheistic/agnostic circles. This is because when people say "nature," what they really mean is "God." Yes, even non-believers fall into this trap because life's a lot easier when you fancy that a large, eternal entity, whether it be nature or a god, shares your opinions.
The truth: "nature" is not a conscious being. It has no thoughts, feelings, or opinions. Therefore, "nature" has no "design." It has absolutely no "plan." If you think nature looks orderly, it's because you're a human and humans are inherently inclined to seek patterns, even in things that don't actually have any. This is why people can see a "face" on the moon.
If it's your assertion that nature is a conscious creature that can make decisions, the burden of proof falls on you.
Besides, "nature" is not a particularly good template for which humans to base culture on. I realize that many individuals like to cite "human nature" when pushing their socio-political agendas, but it really boils down to them cherry-picking which aspects of "nature" they find most appealing. For example, in our closest relative, the chimpanzee, there is ample evidence for greed and dominance, but there is also ample evidence for empathy and sharing. Where you fall on the political spectrum will dictate which behaviors you choose to pay attention to and subsequently ascribe to "human nature."
In any case, "gender-bending" occurs in a myriad of places in "nature," even among primates. And even if it didn't, who in their proper mind would suggest that humans should base their actions on the characteristics of non-human animals?
The, "It's not natural!" whine has pestered many different groups throughout history, from TGs, to homosexuals, to women, to African Americans, ect. It's time to put this particular baby to bed.
techn0teen
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:23 am
Post subject:
RikersBeard wrote:
I do sympathize with transsexuals, but, like 95% of the human race I cannot accept you, rationally or emotionally, as anything other than transsexuals, not the gender you "feel" you are.
Don't you
dare
claim to be able to sympathize with transgendered/transsexual folk. To make a statement that you are sympathetic and then that you cannot accept them as the gender they feel is not sympathy. Why? Because, by not accepting them based on what they feel, you are ignoring or disagreeing with their feelings which is the opposite of sympathy (sympathy being agreement or harmony in what another person is feeling).
Be honest and say what you truly feel. You are either incapable or refuse to understand transgender people. You don't agree with them changing and you are not willing to accommodate them when they change.
How very sympathetic of you, indeed. (sarcasm)
I will correct you and call you out. Because the transgender people reading this deserve that. Not only do transgendered folk have to fight the feeling of being born in the wrong body. They also have to fight
unsympathetic
people like you when they transition. So they can finally obtain peace of body and mind. They don't need people making it harder for them.
RikersBeard wrote:
I think it's rather brutal the way the medical community treat gender dysphoria. It is, in my mind, a mental illness and should be treated as such with psychological techniques, but we don't even try anymore for fear of upsetting post-ops.
Um, "we don't even try anymore"? Are you a medical doctor? If you were in the medical community, you would know that the first treatments are psychological.
You don't seem to know how the process works in this so let me tell you:
It is necessary, before any surgery, to determine whether it is psychological or something else. My surgeon and insurance requires letters from a psychologist telling them that psychological techniques did not or would not, in their professional opinion, work. To get any transgender/transsexual surgery, you also have to be mentally sound (not mentally ill).
On top of that, you have to live as your desired gender for three years straight, changed your name to the appropriate gender, have two therapists letters, see a gender therapist, and been diagnosed with gender identity disorder minimum!
The medical community, before doing any type of surgery, has to make sure this is not a phase or mental illness. If this team of specialists gets this wrong, does surgery, and has the patient sue them after regretting it; they can loose their professional credentials.
If people have already made it to the surgery stage, they are far more likely than not to actually need the surgery to live a full and fulfilling life.
RikersBeard wrote:
So they sell you a nice wedge of false hope and mutilate you. Good job guys.
Whose "they"? Do you mean all the therapists, psychiatrists, surgeons that a transgender person must consult for years before going through any type of surgery? Before getting my top surgery scheduled, I have to consult for three years straight. It wasn't the usual 5-7 years, because I had a history of saying I was a boy for fourteen years straight.
To you, as someone who is most likely already comfortable with their body, these surgeries would be mutilation. For a transgendered person, whose brains were hardwired for the opposite genitals than that they were born with, it wouldn't be. Oh, wait, but you wouldn't understand why transgender people would feel this way because you are unsympathetic. That or you just didn't know.
RikersBeard wrote:
As my signature suggests, it is often better to face reality head on.
You need to face the reality that you don't care or really don't know about transgender people and their plights.
RikersBeard, I am biting my sharp tongue, in respect for the forum rules, but just barely. I might be wrong and you are a decent person. That's up to you to demonstrate.
If you just didn't know or other people feed you bad information, I don't blame you for your responses. There is so much misinformation around. But, as a transman who went through the process and doesn't regret it at all, I hope this educates you.
If you still are like this even after what I gave you, then you are a transphobe. And no reason nor education will quell your fear.
Apple_in_my_Eye
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:05 pm
Post subject:
I think there is a problem with trying to simulate that in your imagination. When you do that, you already know. OTOH, IRL you get a feeling about a person's gender and whether or not you like then from how they come across. If that happens first, and *then* the person finds out it may not work out so stereotypically.
Note: most transsexuals tell before the first kiss, let alone sex -- there is way too much awareness/fear of getting murdered. It seems (from reading forums, anyway) that most try to be considerate in allowing that a person might have a problem with with romance with them.
Those who don't tell are probably the ones who are indistinguishable. As far as not telling the truth about their past, that was the official recommendation in the "old days." (Back then they wouldn't let someone transition unless they could sexually arouse a straight male therapist.)
With greater acceptance people are feeling safer now to be honest, so that acceptance really does make it better for everyone.
IMO, the straight male fear of the "lying transsexual" tricking them is more true in the imagination than it is in reality.
I've also read of various MTF people's dating experiences, and a surprising number of guys who say they're straight are ok with it (even with pre/non-op people). Maybe it's that simple or maybe they're bisexual, I don't know. Most of that reading was on a board for people who are mostly in their 20's, though, so they're probably very passable and pretty good looking.
There is someone named Lynn Conway, who transitioned in the 60's. She was a brilliant engineer who had to give up credit for some work which later became famous. So, she came out because people were starting to take credit for her work. Anyway, she's married to a guy, and has been for a long time. Now that he knows, he's apparently ok with it.
There's also someone named Nikki Araguz. She has an intersex condition, and her body naturally feminized at puberty. But she was left with (small, non-functional) male genitalia (she was too poor to do anything about it). She ended up marrying a firefighter (they're pretty macho, aren't they?) and he's ok with it. (Her case is not a good example, though, because she's in the middle of a legal battle and the opposing attorney is putting lies out to the media.)
And there are those who transition while they are married or otherwise in a long-term relationships. Most relationships don't survive transition, but some do. Jennifer Finney Boylan and Zoe Brain are examples which can be googled.
Also, not all MTF transsexuals are attracted to men.
Quote:
I am glad to learn it, at least they have a chance for happiness/true acceptance as a odd member of a particular gender rather than next to none taking the surgery route.
Maybe. Or maybe they'll just scrape along, miserable, doped up on anti-depressants and tranquilizers, and will spend their lives shut up in their houses.
Oh, also, as far as surgery being the main thing about transition, to some it is and to some it isn't. For some it's actually a bureaucratic matter -- in some states you can't change your driver's license gender indication without it. And having an ID whose gender is different than how you look can get you killed by police. In the last few weeks someone was tazered in the crotch for nothing more than that.
I think overall that it isn't a simple situation that is generalizable. Some straight guys are ok with transwomen (and I'm not talking about 'chasers') and others assault or kill them. And yet others will rob and kill transwomen deliberately, because they know they can use the "tranny panic" defense ("he tricked me into sex" -- even if they never had sex) to get away with it.
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