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[quote="Phonic"][quote="dr01dguy"]@Phonic: I'm intrigued, because you're literally the first person I've seen who was *adamant* about being 100% SPD and totally non-Aspie.[/quote] I didn't say I had SPD in particular, I said I was on the schizophrenia spectrum, it's sort of muddy beyond that, my psychiatrist in the the process of deciding whether or not I have Schizoaffective Disorder, Bipolar type. [quote]I have a question... are you also saying that you didn't exhibit similar symptoms as a child,[/quote] Not in any clinically significant amount, though my personality would have had a professional say I was at risk of developing mental illness later in life. That sort of shy,, sensetive insulur, intelligent personality - the sort whose destined to have Major Depression at some point, but I had friends , I played imaginatively, was mildly popular and known for my good sense of humor and cheerfulness, all my teachers loved me, though that changed after puberty and I entered middle school, where I became known as the kid who constantly argues with teachers. [quote] and that if push came to shove, you [b]couldn't[/b] come up with enough examples of symptoms *now* to satisfy the criteria for AS (even if the examples were fairly minor and barely noticeable, let alone *debilitating*)? [/quote] In a very superficial above the surface way I might come off as an aspie, indeed I have to some people, but for very different reasons, I could name a bunch of things I do that would convince anyone I'm autistic, but there's a lot more to it then that. I come out above average in my ability to understand social situations, I'm good at body language, I'm very expressive in my use of language, and quite capable of friendly chit chat and free flowing conversation, but I'm also [i]introverted[/i] and [i]gifted[/i], a combination that gives a superficial appearence of autism due to great articulatness, I preference to being alone, unusual hobbies and interests, unusual topics in conversation, I speak quite quickly etc. In some ways I'm actually more socially perceptive then most, despite not actually being an NT (if you believe ADD and schizophrenias mean you're not an NT), I say very odd things and ask odd questions at are inappropriate - but I'm fully aware of how inappropriate it is, I often just don't care and I'm curious as to their reactions. My favoured question is "What's your favourite color for a sock", the correct answer is light grey. In some areas I'm very anti aspie, I'm really erratic, moody, messy, attention seeking, sometimes even manipulative, I care about my appearence greatly (to a degree that is clinically significant), wearing formal clothing most days regardless of weather. Admittedly there are two things about me that are pretty aspie: I have sensory issues and I'm fairly clumsy, but neither are central or even official criteria to AS Well I hope you've enjoyed this forae into the mind of an uncommon specimen. [quote]Remember, my central theory is that at the end of the day, "SPD" is *still* "Aspie neurochemical wiring", even if it's a very, very mild instance of it.[/quote] I don't think SPD is part of the autism spectrum or the schizophrenia spectrum, I don't think it's a disorder at all, and I'm not one of those "aspies for freedom" types, I think AS is a disorder, but I don't really know enough about SPD to say. AS is more my field [/quote]Also, have you ever taken Ritalin, Concerta, Adderall, Dexedrine, Desoxyn/methamphetamine, Cylert, TCAs, etc? What effect did they have on you?[/quote] No, none of them, I've taken Prozac, Epilum (It's like Lithium) and Respirdal, I'm still on the last two, I was taken off Prozac when I became manic.[/quote]
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ntgrl
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:59 pm
Post subject:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp4319158.html&highlight=#4319158
I posted some information regarding SPD and Asperger's Syndrome a little while ago. Maybe you will find it useful or interesting.
XFilesGeek
Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:44 pm
Post subject:
Phonic wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Phonic wrote:
It runs counter to how AS typically presents itself.
I'm messy. I can think of many other Aspies on here that admit to being messy. I played imaginatively, and I've encountered other Aspies who have as well. My psychologist wasn't the least bit deterred in his AS diagnosis because I had imaginative play. There are several Aspies on here that are fashion-conscious and view clothes as a hobby or special interest. Got a bunch of depressed Aspies who are moody and erratic, too.
Where are you getting that Asperger's typically doesn't present itself that way?
It happens, but it isn't typical, if you engage in imaginative play then you are doing something counter to your diagnosis, and people with AS are pretty ca-
f**k it, I don't care, do me this huge favour and don't reply with a snivveling "hah, didn't think so" response, I can't take this.
You're making a series of claims without bothering to cite any research to back them up. If I don't take your "say-so" seriously, I'm sorry if that upsets you....well....actually, I'm not.
"Imaginative play" isn't "counter to Asperger's, nor is it "counter to my diagnosis. Nor is my being messy. The clinical psychologist who DXed me was perfectly aware of both my propensity for imaginative play and messiness, but he went with AS anyway. If it goes against what AS is in your personal opinion, I'm afraid your personal opinion doesn't carry much weight with me, or the guy who diagnosed me for that matter.
You can "take that" or not "take that" however you like.
Phonic
Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:06 am
Post subject:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Phonic wrote:
It runs counter to how AS typically presents itself.
I'm messy. I can think of many other Aspies on here that admit to being messy. I played imaginatively, and I've encountered other Aspies who have as well. My psychologist wasn't the least bit deterred in his AS diagnosis because I had imaginative play. There are several Aspies on here that are fashion-conscious and view clothes as a hobby or special interest. Got a bunch of depressed Aspies who are moody and erratic, too.
Where are you getting that Asperger's typically doesn't present itself that way?
It happens, but it isn't typical, if you engage in imaginative play then you are doing something counter to your diagnosis, and people with AS are pretty ca-
it, I don't care, do me this huge favour and don't reply with a snivveling "hah, didn't think so" response, I can't take this.
Phonic
Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:04 am
Post subject:
Quote:
in fact I deliberately emphasized that it didn't and that's why AS and Schizoid don't have much in common
necessarily
.
How do I say this without blowing up...there are aspects to AS that are seen in Schizoids, but these aspects are not necessarily seen in someone with AS, and schizoid has one aspect that is seen in AS (asociality) - but not always.
You're seeing a dissagreement here that doesn't exist.
XFilesGeek
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:21 pm
Post subject:
Phonic wrote:
It runs counter to how AS typically presents itself.
I'm messy. I can think of many other Aspies on here that admit to being messy. I played imaginatively, and I've encountered other Aspies who have as well. My psychologist wasn't the least bit deterred in his AS diagnosis because I had imaginative play. There are several Aspies on here that are fashion-conscious and view clothes as a hobby or special interest. Got a bunch of depressed Aspies who are moody and erratic, too.
Where are you getting that Asperger's typically doesn't present itself that way?
Quote:
I never said it did - in fact I deliberately emphasized that it didn't and that's why AS and Schizoid don't have much in common necessarily.
Seeing as how "schizoid" is mostly just a deeply introverted, imaginative person, than I don't see how it conflicts with AS.
And, since the psychologist who DXed me as Asperger's almost DXed me as "schizoid," I'm fairly certain they can resemble each other.
Halligeninseln
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:10 pm
Post subject:
Phonic said:
AS and Schizoid don't have much in common necessarily.
I agree that AS and Schizoid don't necessarily have much in common, but I think one thing they do have in common is getting quickly tired in social situations, especially groups. I'm not sure that it is necessarily possible for the individual to work out why they get so tired and overloaded so quickly. They just know that they do. I can't sustain group interaction beyond a few comments and end up just sitting there like an idiot because I can't join in and then I lose the plot completely, so in the end I end up observing the whole situation in my mind and feeling bad about being so uncommunicative and on the outside and wondering why it has happened yet again.. That could be a sign of either AS or Schizoid or just general stupidity. Also it took me until the age of 33 to find a girlfriend although I'm well-educated, polite and don't look like a freak. There's no way to tell if that is a "sign" of Schizoid or AS as it can happen to both. Also I like to spent huge amounts of time alone on my "special interest" which can be seen as an aspie obsession or a schizoid way of avoiding interaction with others or even an aspie way of avoiding interacting with others because it's too stressful to do so. It's often really difficult to tell the two apart, even in oneself.
Phonic
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:14 am
Post subject:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Quote:
In some areas I'm very anti aspie, I'm really erratic, moody, messy, attention seeking, sometimes even manipulative, I care about my appearence greatly (to a degree that is clinically significant), wearing formal clothing most days regardless of weather.
Admittedly there are two things about me that are pretty aspie: I have sensory issues and I'm fairly clumsy, but neither are central or even official criteria to AS.
Being messy isn't "anti-Aspie," neither is playing imaginatively, or caring about how you look. Being erratic and moody seems fairly common in many members here who were DX with Aspergers.
It runs counter to how AS typically presents itself.
Quote:
None of these things are central or official criteria for AS. Then again, the desire, or lack of desire, for friends doesn't have much to do with AS either.
I never said it did - in fact I deliberately emphasized that it didn't and that's why AS and Schizoid don't have much in common necessarily.
Halligeninseln
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:54 am
Post subject:
XFilesGeek wrote:
I have many schizoid traits, including being highly imaginative and messy, but I was DX Aspergers by the mental health professional who is trained to know these things. I don't stress over it.
Cool that you don't stress over it. I'm still trying to get to that point but I hope to be able to drop the issue before too long. I've decided the schizoid diagnosis fits me better and just think of myself as schizoid with a few aspie traits, ie the other way round to you. I don't know why some of us obsess so much over our labels, but I certainly do and would do better not to because it leads nowhere.
XFilesGeek
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:35 am
Post subject:
Quote:
In some areas I'm very anti aspie, I'm really erratic, moody, messy, attention seeking, sometimes even manipulative, I care about my appearence greatly (to a degree that is clinically significant), wearing formal clothing most days regardless of weather.
Admittedly there are two things about me that are pretty aspie: I have sensory issues and I'm fairly clumsy, but neither are central or even official criteria to AS.
Being messy isn't "anti-Aspie," neither is playing imaginatively, or caring about how you look. Being erratic and moody seems fairly common in many members here who were DX with Aspergers.
None of these things are central or official criteria for AS. Then again, the desire, or lack of desire, for friends doesn't have much to do with AS either.
I've never understood the process by which some will attempt to determine what is "definitely AS" or "definitely not AS" based on traits that don't really have much to do with the central deficits of AS, especially when co-morbids are taken into account. Researchers are still scrambling to determine what EXACTLY AS/autism are; therefore, I don't see much of a point of over-analyzing AS v. Everything Else when it comes to conditions with fuzzy borders. At least, not until we have the actual brain science to back-up our speculation.
I have many schizoid traits, including being highly imaginative and messy, but I was DX Aspergers by the mental health professional who is trained to know these things. I don't stress over it.
Halligeninseln
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:40 am
Post subject:
Phonic wrote:
"I don't think SPD is part of the autism spectrum or the schizophrenia spectrum, I don't think it's a disorder at all."
That has always been my view, too. I'm supposed to be schizoid. Whether schizoid equals SPD or not depends more on the social circumstances of the affected individual than on anything else. If a person is a really, really extreme introvert with minimal social contacts or needs they seem to qualify for a schizoid diagnosis (as in my case). But as long as society leaves them in peace to do whatever it is they like doing (ie in that they have a private income, for example, which I don't have, or they're a writer or something) there is no reason why the condition should present itself as a disorder. The problem is if you want/need some things which require being social and can't meet those needs because you are too unsocial to do so (ie your relationships collapse because no-one can cope with your solitary ways or you keep getting burnt out at work because you can't deal with being around people so much). As a monk such a person would probably do fine and not present as disturbed at all. Probably very different things get lumped together in the schizoid diagnosis, including both extreme introverts and also people who actually ARE on the schizophrenic spectrum and whose withdrawal comes from being seriously cut off from their feelings or body or whatever and who are at real risk of developing schizophrenia.
My motive for starting this thread was really a sense of frustration at diagnoses in general, because it is clear enough to me what being schizoid is supposed to mean and also what AS is supposed to be and while I have at different times been diagnosed with both neither fits me correctly. If you have strong emotions at times or feel really lonely for want of a girlfriend (as I usually did when I was young) you can't really have SPD because they are supposed to be cold and have little interest in such things. If you stim that is suppposed to show you don't have SPD but AS, and if you have strongly focussed interests that you really enjoy you also don't have SPD. So I'm not schizoid. Then I look at the AS diagnosis and I'm not really that either; I just have some strange autistic-looking habits as far as I can see and that doesn't make me AS. So I'm left with throwing out both diagnoses, which isn't very satisfactory because I'm not very normal. I suppose a person can just be "a bit strange" with schizoid and autistic-looking traits which make them rather badly adjusted to normal life.
I have read that most people with SPD don't present for treatment because they don't realise that there is anything wrong with them. I have also read that many specialists don't think there is such a thing as SPD and that it's just a normal human variation. So you have people who don't think they have a problem failing to visit specialists who don't think they have a problem. Which is only a problem if you are one of the specialists who think they do have a problem and that the other group of specialists are wrong.
On the other hand AS is very real and it seems regrettable if the concept is now so watered down to include people who only exhibit a few autistic-looking traits.
Phonic
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:32 am
Post subject:
dr01dguy wrote:
@Phonic: I'm intrigued, because you're literally the first person I've seen who was *adamant* about being 100% SPD and totally non-Aspie.
I didn't say I had SPD in particular, I said I was on the schizophrenia spectrum, it's sort of muddy beyond that, my psychiatrist in the the process of deciding whether or not I have Schizoaffective Disorder, Bipolar type.
Quote:
I have a question... are you also saying that you didn't exhibit similar symptoms as a child,
Not in any clinically significant amount, though my personality would have had a professional say I was at risk of developing mental illness later in life. That sort of shy,, sensetive insulur, intelligent personality - the sort whose destined to have Major Depression at some point,
but I had friends , I played imaginatively, was mildly popular and known for my good sense of humor and cheerfulness, all my teachers loved me, though that changed after puberty and I entered middle school, where I became known as the kid who constantly argues with teachers.
Quote:
and that if push came to shove, you
couldn't
come up with enough examples of symptoms *now* to satisfy the criteria for AS (even if the examples were fairly minor and barely noticeable, let alone *debilitating*)?
In a very superficial above the surface way I might come off as an aspie, indeed I have to some people, but for very different reasons, I could name a bunch of things I do that would convince anyone I'm autistic, but there's a lot more to it then that.
I come out above average in my ability to understand social situations, I'm good at body language, I'm very expressive in my use of language, and quite capable of friendly chit chat and free flowing conversation, but I'm also
introverted
and
gifted
, a combination that gives a superficial appearence of autism due to great articulatness, I preference to being alone, unusual hobbies and interests, unusual topics in conversation, I speak quite quickly etc.
In some ways I'm actually more socially perceptive then most, despite not actually being an NT (if you believe ADD and schizophrenias mean you're not an NT), I say very odd things and ask odd questions at are inappropriate - but I'm fully aware of how inappropriate it is, I often just don't care and I'm curious as to their reactions. My favoured question is "What's your favourite color for a sock", the correct answer is light grey.
In some areas I'm very anti aspie, I'm really erratic, moody, messy, attention seeking, sometimes even manipulative, I care about my appearence greatly (to a degree that is clinically significant), wearing formal clothing most days regardless of weather.
Admittedly there are two things about me that are pretty aspie: I have sensory issues and I'm fairly clumsy, but neither are central or even official criteria to AS
Well I hope you've enjoyed this forae into the mind of an uncommon specimen.
Quote:
Remember, my central theory is that at the end of the day, "SPD" is *still* "Aspie neurochemical wiring", even if it's a very, very mild instance of it.
I don't think SPD is part of the autism spectrum or the schizophrenia spectrum, I don't think it's a disorder at all, and I'm not one of those "aspies for freedom" types, I think AS is a disorder, but I don't really know enough about SPD to say. AS is more my field
[/quote]Also, have you ever taken Ritalin, Concerta, Adderall, Dexedrine, Desoxyn/methamphetamine, Cylert, TCAs, etc? What effect did they have on you?[/quote]
No, none of them, I've taken Prozac, Epilum (It's like Lithium) and Respirdal, I'm still on the last two, I was taken off Prozac when I became manic.
D47C
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:03 am
Post subject:
I kind of know of lot of this theoritical garbage. If you ask me SPD, aspbergers and APD have the same building blocks but the result is different. In the way they present socially:
SPD people generally can't be bothered.
APD people just say " you" "I get what I want"
And Aspbergers people just don't understand.
But I know this is just another generalisation and pretty meaningless.
dr01dguy
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:43 pm
Post subject:
(argh. site lacks protection from twice-submitted forms, and Android browsers resubmit http POST requests without warning)
dr01dguy
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:02 pm
Post subject:
@Phonic: I'm intrigued, because you're literally the first person I've seen who was *adamant* about being 100% SPD and totally non-Aspie.
I have a question... are you also saying that you didn't exhibit similar symptoms as a child, and that if push came to shove, you
couldn't
come up with enough examples of symptoms *now* to satisfy the criteria for AS (even if the examples were fairly minor and barely noticeable, let alone *debilitating*)?
Remember, my central theory is that at the end of the day, "SPD" is *still* "Aspie neurochemical wiring", even if it's a very, very mild instance of it.
Also, have you ever taken Ritalin, Concerta, Adderall, Dexedrine, Desoxyn/methamphetamine, Cylert, TCAs, etc? What effect did they have on you?
Yuxi
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:29 pm
Post subject:
Quote:
Anyway, my problem with the SPD diagnosis is (among other things) that it doesn't square with a lifetime of (highly enjoyable and absolutely necessary) visual stimming and an (equally enjoyable and necessary) lifetime of really cool focus on my special interest., so it is interesting to learn that people classified as SPD don't lack these traits Smile . When I read about SPD it just seems so gray and lifeless and dead and I don't feel like that at all Sad .
I've also be diagnosed SPD starting at 19, the early symptoms starting at 15. That condition was originally triggered by a heavy use of drugs (starting at 17) and momentous stress that found it's origins inside my family's story.
However since childhood I was seen by my classmates and teachers as an "ambulant dictionnary" and a "little teacher" (my native language is French) and I was really hoping as a kid to become a journalist or to work in an economic field. Yet the atmosphere at home was rotten since the divorce of my parents and my results dropped from very good to just better than average.
Back in the mid 90's in my country, the teachers went on a strike for almost a whole year. I was in my third grade (sci-math option) and hoping to pass the following year to change to the litterature option. Since the strike lasted almost for 8 months, our governement decided to let pass all students of our dear country to the next year with a minimal examination.
There's usually in any ASD to SPD disorder a break point that you are not aware of when you reach it.
That's when I started not to trust my teachers and the whole "adult" community in general.
I got along with a bunch of bad guys and party crashers as on another side I was cultivating my strong interests into anime, Japanese culture in particular and East Asian cultures in general.
Other things I also liked were sci-fi novels (namely Asimov's, K.Dick's, Bradbury), dark-fantasy (Lovecraft) and physics (essentially classical physics). I wouldn't say I was a genius on any of these matters but sure I had a creative mind on my own and where at parties, when people were drunk high and jumping, I remember sitting and doing awkward things for which I was also seen as weirdo (counting number of flashing light, trying to determine their frequency and counting and observing people in the rooms which basically are not the best kind of social interactions you can have @ a party).
You'll be jumping for two hours but you'll want to do something else for the next 6 hours.
Sex in the toilets is not an option
The reason why I liked partying so much was that I've always been a huge music fan. It started very early with my father's passion for music. We used to listen a lot to Bob Marley (and we all know where it ends) and Donna Summer amongst other things.
Electronic music scene in the Europe was bringing us sounds like we had never heard before (Japan and Germany brought us a lot of good things along with US (ahh Detroit!).
Parties and music were not the main point of focus tought and I became more and more avid of drugs and the delusions they induced. I've tried almost everything that I could get back then: PCP, E, LSD, shrooms, speed, benzo and many others.
Back then, also, I wanted to leave for my one love: Japan, to become a male prostitute. I've read recently that the movement had expanded a lot since then, that was, maybe, an idea.
The particularity of ASD is the mind can focus on things and let the body act on it's own in an automated way for a time, at least... sometimes. That time lasted a little too long for me and while I was exploring some kind of other realms, while on drugs, my physical condition depracated and it ended in a total mind crash.
That's when my crisis started.
I dropped the books,started to watch TV all day long and locked myself in my room for months. All that happened in a matter of one year and a half. It still makes me feel weird when I think of my life back then. I will spare you the details that you will find watching "The Aviator", "A beautiful Mind", "Identity" or "American Psycho" for the delirium and the hygiene.
Suffering is a daily condition when you're into a crisis. The sun raising in the morning and the birds singing can be a real delight, tough.
Bad things are: the voices, when they are agressive and the "day"mares (you're not always daydreaming: you'll rather be scared by your delusions most of the time).
The cops broke into my home and and took me by force to the hospital on the advice of a doctor when I was starting to draw mountains on my wooden floor with a stylus.
From that period, I still have over a hundred pages of writings and drawings. It's not so bad after all, I think I still could throw some @ the world if I wanted to.
I finished the saga of Dune by F. Herbert during the first months at hospital and I started to read C.G. Jung in order to try to have a better understanding of what I was heading to (on this I must say that LSD+Dune is a bad idea ^_^).
My crisis as one of my doctors told me, years later (I spent more 7 years in psychiatry) was not to be lifetime crisis. It had reached a peak at some point and it was just going to fade away slowly with time and meds (at least I hang on that hope and that's what helped me most since then).
Just a parenthesis, here, to say that my mental hospital times were both the most awesome and high times in my life except for all the problems that my mother caused: I had the wildest dreams of my life, I met the most insane and the coolest people over there and I have learned things about life that I will try not to forget.
I have also seen some of the most horrendous things in their walls, and still now, because of that I tend to believe that the society itself in constantly in a kind of muted war. Mental Hospitals are in a way the first line of that social muted war and I worship some of my doctors for the help they gave me.
I went out once and for all at 27.
What is most interesting to notice with this ASD+PSD (mainly paranoļa) is that it was in the end considered by doctors as a bipolar disorder.
Also, I finally have the same points of interests as when I was a kid and a teenager but I don't read novels anymore: I consider them as a waste of time and a threat for my internal balance.
All is not dark in SPD especially if you have most of the positive traits, some optimism for brighter tomorrows and if you learn manage it with some help. It's bad when you become obsessional and extreme in some ways.
All is neither totally bright or dark in ASD for other reasons.
Both helped me in some cases but both are difficult to manage in harder times of life (e.g: the recent death, two weeks ago of
my grand-father which was the only man left of the family).
For both you need to take care of some things.
Drugs can influe greatly on my mental condition.
I've also found myself in awkward position when I drank too much and, more than 3 cigarettes a day destroy my mood.
I'm an isoflavine addict since I'm a kid and that's the only thing that has no side effects.
PSD tends to push you to the extreme in many ways, you'll need some help sometimes.
For anything else writing helps also.
Drink a lot of water is really good for me as well as living in a quiet place.
If sometimes you feel you want to get "bad", read Bukowsky. No one will ever reach again the size that man had. It should make you want to give up.
The internet is slippy.
I don't watch horror movies and I try to avoid anything that could activate my Dark Side.
I keep my mind clean except for shrooms, less than once a year and lulz on 4chan.
I have to bear my cross.
I don't post on the internet usually cos it's a waste of time and I think just like above humanity can not be helped.
I care for the people I love, like my grandma, my wife and son.
The rest is up to yourself...
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