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[quote="puddingmouse"]^ That makes sense. I get what you mean about rejecting yourself. I honestly think growing up Catholic partly caused it, too. I'm am not worthy. I must do penance. My nature is corrupted. I must purge myself of the terrible sin of being myself. It's bad to get what you want in this life, you should focus on pining after some perfect ideal. Bleh. Life is too short for this sh**. I have any sense about me, I should go out and live. No-one is less deserving of happiness than anyone else. Please tell that to my subconscious. Thanks for talking to me about this.[/quote]
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<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="100%" class="forumline"> <tr> <th class="thCornerL" width="22%" height="26">Author</th> <th class="thCornerR">Message</th> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>AstroGeek</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:03 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>visagrunt wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">There is an obvious pitfall to same-sex attraction: we can compare ourselves directly to the objects of our attraction. <br /> <br />"He's so hot," can quickly lead to, "I wish I was that hot," to, "I wish my [insert feature here] looked like that," to, "He's out of my league."</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />That is exactly what I experience. It was part of the reason why I didn't realize that I was gay until about a year ago: I thought that I just liked looking at shirtless guys because I envied their physique. For me though, the envy goes a bit farther than just looks. I'll also find myself envying guys who have a more fun, less stressed, less neurotic personality.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>visagrunt</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:33 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">There is an obvious pitfall to same-sex attraction: we can compare ourselves directly to the objects of our attraction. <br /> <br />"He's so hot," can quickly lead to, "I wish I was that hot," to, "I wish my [insert feature here] looked like that," to, "He's out of my league." <br /> <br />It seems to me (but I leave it to someone with some direct experience to confirm or refute my supposition) that admiring a person of the opposite sex presents fewer opportunities for those inner statements. Certainly a member of the opposite sex can generate the "S/he's so hot," and the, "s/he's out of my league," sentiments, but it is less likely to involve a direct comparison with one's own body.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>puddingmouse</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:36 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>CrazyCatLord wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">It's exactly the other way around for me. Or rather, it's exactly the same, only that I'm male <img src="modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" border="0" /> I dated a few men back in the day before my social anxiety got the better of me. With "dated", I mean "found someone in my area in some AOL chat room, gave him my address, had fast and uncomplicated sex, and never saw him again afterwards". Men are straightforward, easy to understand and easy to satisfy. <br /> <br />But I've always been a lot more self-conscious and inhibited around women. Feeling unworthy describes it perfectly. In my case, this can't have anything to do with homophobia, and I don't think that's the case for you either. It's probably just self-sabotage out of fear of being rejected or not being able to live up to someone else's expectations.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I did have a lot of internalised homophobia, but it's probably a separate issue. I think as I get over that, and accept that it's perfectly okay with me to love women, I realised that I still have a hard time accepting the idea of women loving me.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>CoMF</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:51 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">I'm not entirely sure if this is similar to what you're feeling, but many times I've experienced anxiety upon meeting guys who I was absolutely smitten by. Often, I feel I'm "too weird" or "not pretty enough" for them. <br /> <br />With women, I don't feel this nearly as much.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>CrazyCatLord</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:57 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">It's exactly the other way around for me. Or rather, it's exactly the same, only that I'm male <img src="modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" border="0" /> I dated a few men back in the day before my social anxiety got the better of me. With "dated", I mean "found someone in my area in some AOL chat room, gave him my address, had fast and uncomplicated sex, and never saw him again afterwards". Men are straightforward, easy to understand and easy to satisfy. <br /> <br />But I've always been a lot more self-conscious and inhibited around women. Feeling unworthy describes it perfectly. In my case, this can't have anything to do with homophobia, and I don't think that's the case for you either. It's probably just self-sabotage out of fear of being rejected or not being able to live up to someone else's expectations.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>puddingmouse</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:18 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Self-esteem and same sex attraction</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Thom_Fuleri wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br /> <br />I think it's simpler than that. You're fine with men finding you attractive because that's "safe" - it won't lead anywhere, so the outcome doesn't matter. It's like betting with pretend money - you can risk the lot on one hand of cards because it's just for fun. But women finding you attractive is important to you. You resist it, because it does have consequences. It matters to you. <br /> <br />"Fat and ugly" is not the cause of a lack of self-esteem. It's an expression of it, and usually comes from a distorted self-image, but it's far from the only form of expression. And yes, I can relate to it. I hated myself for many years before I finally learned how to accept myself, and now I know myself to be the intelligent, handsome sex machine that I really am. <img src="modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="Very Happy" border="0" /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />There's a bit of truth to that. I'm not 100% gay and currently live with my bf, but I suppose I take the idea of a relationship with a woman more seriously (I feel horrible to my bf for typing that, but I do prefer women and he knows that). Plus, men fancy women all the time. If I lost my current partner, I could get another male partner, eventually...but women are harder to get in general, even more so when you are a woman yourself. There would be a lot of 'must. not. . this. up', if I had a relationship with a woman. It's easier to reject it outright. <img src="modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_sad.gif" alt="Sad" border="0" /></span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Radiofixr</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:24 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">I do not have to think of myself as fat and ugly-when I try to meet people they ignore me and turn away from me so they must see me as fat and ugly so I don't have to beat myself up-everyone out there does it for me it seems.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Thom_Fuleri</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:33 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Self-esteem and same sex attraction</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>puddingmouse wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Does anyone have this problem of not feeling 'worthy' of the same sex? <br /> <br />If a woman was ever attracted to me, I'd think she'd need her brain/eyesight checking. I wouldn't trust her to be of sound mind and judgement. Yet, I have less of an issue with accepting that sometimes men like me. <br /> <br />... <br /> <br />I wish I knew where this comes from. It's not 'I'm fat and ugly' because I'm not that fat and I'm not ugly. I say it's 'cause 'I'm fat and ugly' as a rationalisation. It might be internalised homophobia, but then I wonder where I got that from. I mean, there is homophobia out there for me to internalise, but I've never come across anything as strong as my self-hatred. <img src="modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif" alt="Confused" border="0" /> <br /> <br />Can anyone else relate to this?</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I think it's simpler than that. You're fine with men finding you attractive because that's "safe" - it won't lead anywhere, so the outcome doesn't matter. It's like betting with pretend money - you can risk the lot on one hand of cards because it's just for fun. But women finding you attractive is important to you. You resist it, because it does have consequences. It matters to you. <br /> <br />"Fat and ugly" is not the cause of a lack of self-esteem. It's an expression of it, and usually comes from a distorted self-image, but it's far from the only form of expression. And yes, I can relate to it. I hated myself for many years before I finally learned how to accept myself, and now I know myself to be the intelligent, handsome sex machine that I really am. <img src="modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="Very Happy" border="0" /></span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Tequila</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:04 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>puddingmouse wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">She is female - I can understand your reasoning behind that.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I am glad to hear it. Trust is a massive part of it. If you feel you can open up to her and she really understands (many won't), it'll be a big help for you. <br /> <br />Best of luck. <img src="modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" border="0" /></span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>puddingmouse</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:01 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">No, you're right. <br /> <br />She is female - I can understand your reasoning behind that. I've had a quick session with her before. I wouldn't mope around on a waiting list like this if I didn't think she could help.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Tequila</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:54 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>puddingmouse wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">The therapist I'm waiting for can do different types of therapy.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Call me paranoid but it might be better if she were female. Yes, I know you have issues to do with this but I don't trust these people. <br /> <br />Sorry if this is unhelpful advice. I'll disappear now.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Tequila</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:53 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>puddingmouse wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">I don't believe in CBT. Been there, done that.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />The impersonalness of the guy doing it frightens me and I've told him so. He seems to have made up his mind about what sort of character I am through the first couple of sessions, and it's not a pleasant one. <br /> <br />If he goes on about healthy lifestyle any more, I'm going to mention the mote in his eye.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>puddingmouse</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:52 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">I don't believe in CBT. Been there, done that. The therapist I'm waiting for can do different types of therapy.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Tequila</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:50 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>puddingmouse wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">It's ok, thanks. I know your thoughts on this matter.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />It was mainly about being very careful about your therapy and trusting people. I'm currently going through CBT at the moment and I've had disappointment after disappointment with these 'professionals'.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>puddingmouse</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:48 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">It's ok, thanks. I know your thoughts on this matter. I was just posting in here to see if I could get some fresh insight, or hear from someone who feels even slightly the same.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> </table>
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