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[quote="Icyclan"][quote="LKL"] 'sport' arts like jujitsu and MMA are good in fights about dominance[/quote] All fights are about dominance. [quote="LKL"] but crap if someone really wants to hurt you:[/quote] MMA guys know a lot more about hurting than aikidoka. [quote="LKL"] they take blows to the head like they're nothing[/quote] Against trained fighters. Not against karate clowns or aikido hippies. [quote="LKL"] and when someone goes for your eyes it's good to get your face out of the way.[/quote] And who would have better head movement: someone who practices live combat and trains to avoid punches or someone who trains in an art that only theorizes about it? [quote="LKL"] aikido.... I've trained in aikido for 12 years, and I have to say that it's a mixed bag. Some dojos are essentially teaching partner dance w/o music; others are some of the meanest places you can imagine.[/quote] The only half-decent aikidoka I've ever seen are the practitioners of the full-contact Tomiki style. And they make up less than 1% of all aikidoka. [quote="LKL"] In general, aikidoka don't 'fight,' and if someone takes out your eyes or crushes your throat on purpose to[i] end[/i] a fight, it's going to be an aikidoka and not an MMA guy.[/quote] ... I'm guessing you don't know any MMA guys. The average MMA guy is far meaner than the average aikido guy. [quote="LKL"] That said, the goal of aikido, what we train for for years, is to be able to end a fight with the least amount of damage to our partner. The question is simply how anxious and/or surprised the aikidoist made is by his or her attacker.[/quote] 4th dan Aikido teacher of the biggest dojo in Vietnam vs a submission wrestler: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLP_DInpPHE&feature=watch_response[/youtube] Aikido black belt vs Judo black belt, this one is especially laughable: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AssByvGVx6s[/youtube] I couldn't find any aikido vs mma fights, and I'm kind of glad I couldn't.[/quote]
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<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="100%" class="forumline"> <tr> <th class="thCornerL" width="22%" height="26">Author</th> <th class="thCornerR">Message</th> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>LKL</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:25 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">This thread has been derailed beyond hope of recall. Anyone with constructive input can PM me.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Icyclan</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:00 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>LKL wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">1)I don't think you'd know a 'good' aikidoka if you saw one... <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Sure I would, he'd stand out like Einstein at a down syndrome convention.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>LKL</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:20 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">1)I don't think you'd know a 'good' aikidoka if you saw one... <br />2)..."except for..." <br /> <br />Can we be done with the derail, now?</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Icyclan</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:15 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>LKL wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Icyclan, your videos only prove what I have already said: *some* aikido dojos do not practice a martial art. Some such dojos don't even use atemi. One can achieve very high rank in these dojos and still have practically no martial skills. Mr. Turkish Wrestler left his face completely open when he was grabbing for the aikidoka - not difficult to get a strong reaction when you stick your fingers up someone's nose when they try that. <br /> <br />Ukes are only compliant in aikido because the'll get hit - sometimes hard - if they're not (and, of course, when they're helping <span style="font-style: italic">beginners</span> learn the technique).</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Funny how only the 'bad' aikidoka are ever caught on tape... even funnier is that all of those charlatans smearing the good name of aikido seem to be high-level black belts completely indistinguishable from the legit, 'real' aikidoka. <br /> <br />In fact, I've never seen non-compliant 'good' aikido on tape, except from the shodokan/tomiki style.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>LKL</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:29 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Icyclan, your videos only prove what I have already said: *some* aikido dojos do not practice a martial art. Some such dojos don't even use atemi. One can achieve very high rank in these dojos and still have practically no martial skills. Mr. Turkish Wrestler left his face completely open when he was grabbing for the aikidoka - not difficult to get a strong reaction when you stick your fingers up someone's nose when they try that. <br /> <br />Ukes are only compliant in aikido because the'll get hit - sometimes hard - if they're not (and, of course, when they're helping <span style="font-style: italic">beginners</span> learn the technique).</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Icyclan</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:50 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>1000Knives wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Icyclan wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Telling, isn't it? That one can reach the rank of shodan in aikido while being in horrible shape. Even then, not being in shape is no excuse for being that bad. The first guy looks like a complete amateur, I bet he's never trained with a non-compliant uke before. Besides, the submission wrestler wasn't in great shape either; unlike the aikido teacher though, he knew what he was doing. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I don't know, I think the submission wrestler was in good shape, I mean just because he has a small belly doesn't make him in horrible shape, sure he's not got a "beach body" but still. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VfN0WOWvno" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VfN0WOWvno</a> This dude here, 325 pounds, can box jump 52".</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Most competing submission wrestlers don't look as soft as he did, but it doesn't really matter. What I was trying to say was that the aikido guy was tossed around like a ragdoll. <br /> <br />As for the video, high level powerlifters are very explosive so it doesn't really surprise me, although I wonder if he's really 325.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Icyclan</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:41 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>starryeyedvoyager wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Partially expressed myself wrong when it came to the BJJ part. Of course, once you are in a lock or chocke, it's over, I meant that part where someone tries to establish one of these and is in an advantageous position. <br />I don't think that MMA differs much from traditional martial arts, to be honest. Thing is, few people still practice traditional martial arts. Traditional, to me, means: like it used to be. If you train a martial art in a way as if your life still depended on it, I am sure you'd but a big emphasis on live sparring. I still stronlgy disagree that building skills for the ring is inherently better than with just self-defence on your mind, especially if you bring weaponry into the game. MMA might be "closer" to a "real" fight than boxing or wrestling, but it's still lightyears. The two videos still prove more or less nothing, it was still a controlled environment with certain rules. Little wonder that the judoka won against an aikidoka in a match played by judo rules. This famous fight between Andy Hug and Chanphuak Kiatsongrit, same story... of course the latter was at disadvantage, because they played by rules that catered more to Andy Hugs Kyokushin background: no striking to the head. <br />In my oppinion, as soon as you put gloves on your hands, you are out of the realm of a real fight.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Debating exactly how close MMA is to street fighting is pointless anyhow. What I'm trying to convey is that it's the best way to prepare for someone attacking you regardless the (lack of) rules. Countless no-rules fights (videotaped ones) between MMA'ers and traditionalists have proven that, and they have also proven that the so called 'dirty' moves are not a deciding factor in unarmed combat. Whether on the street or in the cage, a puch is a punch. Physics are the same everywhere. MMA, especially vale tudo rules, is very much like one-on-one street fighting. <br /> <br />Your definition of 'traditional' is not correct for many arts: taekwondo, shotokan and many other styles of karate and kung fu were never practiced differently than how they are practiced today. It wasn't until Oyama invented kyokushin that karate practitioners actually hit each other. <br /> <br />As for the videos, they prove that even high level aikidoka have no clue what to do when a non-compliant uke grabs them. The controlled setting was actually in favor of the aikido guys, because it allowed them to focus solely on countering the opponent's grabs (which is the brunt of aikido practice) without having to worry about being punched. And still they looked terrible. <br /> <br />Regarding the gloves, 4 oz MMA gloves don't change the dynamics of the fight much. Back in the old days of the UFC, when they weren't compulsory, some fighters would wear them anyway to be able to hit harder without breaking their fists.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>1000Knives</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:35 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Icyclan wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Telling, isn't it? That one can reach the rank of shodan in aikido while being in horrible shape. Even then, not being in shape is no excuse for being that bad. The first guy looks like a complete amateur, I bet he's never trained with a non-compliant uke before. Besides, the submission wrestler wasn't in great shape either; unlike the aikido teacher though, he knew what he was doing. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I don't know, I think the submission wrestler was in good shape, I mean just because he has a small belly doesn't make him in horrible shape, sure he's not got a "beach body" but still. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VfN0WOWvno" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VfN0WOWvno</a> This dude here, 325 pounds, can box jump 52".</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>starryeyedvoyager</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:29 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Partially expressed myself wrong when it came to the BJJ part. Of course, once you are in a lock or chocke, it's over, I meant that part where someone tries to establish one of these and is in an advantageous position. <br />I don't think that MMA differs much from traditional martial arts, to be honest. Thing is, few people still practice traditional martial arts. Traditional, to me, means: like it used to be. If you train a martial art in a way as if your life still depended on it, I am sure you'd but a big emphasis on live sparring. I still stronlgy disagree that building skills for the ring is inherently better than with just self-defence on your mind, especially if you bring weaponry into the game. MMA might be "closer" to a "real" fight than boxing or wrestling, but it's still lightyears. The two videos still prove more or less nothing, it was still a controlled environment with certain rules. Little wonder that the judoka won against an aikidoka in a match played by judo rules. This famous fight between Andy Hug and Chanphuak Kiatsongrit, same story... of course the latter was at disadvantage, because they played by rules that catered more to Andy Hugs Kyokushin background: no striking to the head. <br />In my oppinion, as soon as you put gloves on your hands, you are out of the realm of a real fight.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Icyclan</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:13 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>LKL wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">@ Icyclan: no, all fights are not about dominance. Some are about survival.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Then it's still about dominance for the other guy. If it was merely for survival for the both of you, you wouldn't be fighting to begin with. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>LKL wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Most men fight over social dominance; most women fight for survival. MMA guys (formerly, Brazilian jujitsu guys) are generally the types who want to be 'badasses' so that they can be physically dominant assholes in a group of other men.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I know many BJJ guys as well as traditionalists and the BJJ guys are generally far more humble because they don't delude themselves thinking they are deadly killing machines. After tapping out over 30 times in your first class and basically being used as a training dummy, you learn some humility really quickly. Traditionalists never expose themselves like that, so you can never be sure whether or not their humility is just a facade. <br /> <br />As for MMA guys, it's a mixed bag: you can't stereotype them like that, the days that only aggressive roidheads would practice it are long gone. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>LKL wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Other notes: any fight or competetion that takes place in a dojo or a ring is necessarily constrained by rules. If any of those guys attacked me, I would probably loose - but, assuming that I had some kind of warning, the first thing I would try to do is take out their eyes. Not something you can do in the dojo. Hell, most dojos don't even train with mock weapons, much less live blades. MMA guys are trained to take punches to the head without flinching, and they might not even have the instinct to block me when I did it. Once their eyes are gone, the fight is over. </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />It's an egregious assumption that you could take out even one eye, let alone both. The eyes are about the smallest target you can hit and people protect them instinctively. It's much more likely that he manages to fire off a quick 1-2 combo followed by a shoot before you get anywhere near his face. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>LKL wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Finally, Icyclan, do you have anytihing constructive to add to the main questions of this thread?</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Icyclan wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">The best way to anticipate what your opponent is going to do is to watch the centre of his upper body so you can see his shoulders and hips through your peripheral vision. I don't know why you would look your opponent in the eyes, it tells you nothing about what he's going to do next.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />As for the woman, perhaps you're over-analyzing the situation and she's just a spoiled brat? I mean, we all have asperger's here, but it doesn't stop us from observing common dojo etiquette. I take it she has sufficient cognitive abilities to follow simple instructions?</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Icyclan</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:42 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>starryeyedvoyager wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Ah, the good old "my art is better than yours". Posting videos is rather moot, though, as you do not pit a style against another style, it is a human against another human. </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Yes. And the practitioners of some arts always seem to come out on top. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>starryeyedvoyager wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Not saying the aikidoka are being heavily outclassed by their opponents, but it is pretty clear that is partially due to their lack of physical conditioning (especially the one in the second video, he is out of breath after the first time he went down).</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Telling, isn't it? That one can reach the rank of shodan in aikido while being in horrible shape. Even then, not being in shape is no excuse for being that bad. The first guy looks like a complete amateur, I bet he's never trained with a non-compliant uke before. Besides, the submission wrestler wasn't in great shape either; unlike the aikido teacher though, he knew what he was doing. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>starryeyedvoyager wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Ever wonder why not many boxer are successful just with boxing in MMA? Because boxing is a sport. They got good conditioning, good striking power and stamina. Put foot techniques into the mix, and the ability to grapple, and all your boxing skills are worth next to nothing. The same, in my oppinion, holds true with MMA, or hell, any other martial art that puts restrictions to itself in order to enforce a competetive environment.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />The average boxer would make mince meat of the average traditionalist solely because of athleticism and toughness. Even though the boxer has a very limited set of moves, that alone is enough to carry him through most fights. MMA is far less restricting yet. A well-conditioned MMA fighter will generally beat any other martial artist in a no-rules fight because his way of training mimics a real fight the closest. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>starryeyedvoyager wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Having good ground game is a nice skill to have. I train in BJJ, and I know how effective it could be. Then again, I cannot count the number of times I have been stuck in a choke or armbar, and thought: "I wonder if he could maintain this hold if I used my hand he isn't trying to control and just curshed his balls with a sturdy grip" or "I wonder if he would let go of me if I just plucked his eyes out with my other hand, while biting a chunk out of his leg." I know I would let go. </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I don't think you would, you'd probably barely feel it in the rush of a real fight and you'd crank his arm until he can't use his mouth for anything but screaming. People have been bitten, stabbed and shot in fights and never noticed until the fight was over. Pain-compliant moves such as biting aren't very reliable fight enders. Also, what choke or other submission would possibly allow you to reach for your opponent's eyes with your free hand? I can't think of any.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>starryeyedvoyager</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:43 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">One of my gurus always says: "Well, if they really wanted to get me, they'd just run me over with a car." <br /> <br />I don't think private lessons would be a good idea if a studend misbehaves. I do give private lessons myself, but it due to schedules. I would never give private lessons to someone that cannot accept my rules, it would only cater them and give them the impression that they can get through with their behaviour, and people will accomodate if they just stomp their feet and cry. <br />As for your own issues with AS in your MA training: I consider myself a very physical person, when it comes to things like forms, I am really fast to pick these things up (e.g. I learn most kata in Karate by watching them once, and I've picked up the first two hand forms of Wing Chun by getting them shown to me twice each), and my teachers always admire my very correct execution, but they always say I somehow lack fluidity and expression in my motions, which they find to be weird, since it usually comes from a lack of understanding or memorization, which is not the case with me. They always remark how I move very... well, mechanical, more or less like a machine, and I have no idea how I would ever get rid of that.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>LKL</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:33 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">@ Icyclan: no, all fights are not about dominance. Some are about survival. Most men fight over social dominance; most women fight for survival. MMA guys (formerly, Brazilian jujitsu guys) are generally the types who want to be 'badasses' so that they can be physically dominant assholes in a group of other men. <br />Note that being a physically dominant does not necessarily make one mean. <br />Also note that I clearly stated that some aikidoists are basically dancing for peace and harmony, not performing any kind of martial exercise. <br /> <br />Other notes: any fight or competetion that takes place in a dojo or a ring is necessarily constrained by rules. If any of those guys attacked me, I would probably loose - but, assuming that I had some kind of warning, the first thing I would try to do is take out their eyes. Not something you can do in the dojo. Hell, most dojos don't even train with mock weapons, much less live blades. MMA guys are trained to take punches to the head without flinching, and they might not even have the instinct to block me when I did it. Once their eyes are gone, the fight is over. Of course, that's all assuming that someone doesn't just shoot me in the back, which pretty much no marital training other than general awareness can do anyting to prevent. <br /> <br />While I occasionally picture what I would do 'if that sketchy guy over there tried to grab me,' I sincerely hope that I never have to use any of my training, successfully or otherwise. In the meantime, I train because it's fun, and it might someday be useful. <br /> <br />Finally, Icyclan, do you have anytihing constructive to add to the main questions of this thread?</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>starryeyedvoyager</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:05 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Ah, the good old "my art is better than yours". Posting videos is rather moot, though, as you do not pit a style against another style, it is a human against another human. Not saying the aikidoka are being heavily outclassed by their opponents, but it is pretty clear that is partially due to their lack of physical conditioning (especially the one in the second video, he is out of breath after the first time he went down). Now, while I do not consider myself a mixed martial artist, in the sense that I do not indulge in the competetive aspect of the sport, but I do train a broad range of different martial arts, and I do participate in training sessions with some MMA fighters I know, mainly because they say I am a tough opponent, even though I am a "karate clown". Mixed martial arts are a sport. The folks I know are tough, and they sure could handle themselves well in a fight on the streets because they got good strength, stamina and agility, aspects I, personally, focus on even though I have no interest in competetive fighting. Fighting in a ring is with rules. As soon as rules are involved, you are limited in judging your ability as a fighter. Ever wonder why not many boxer are successful just with boxing in MMA? Because boxing is a sport. They got good conditioning, good striking power and stamina. Put foot techniques into the mix, and the ability to grapple, and all your boxing skills are worth next to nothing. The same, in my oppinion, holds true with MMA, or hell, any other martial art that puts restrictions to itself in order to enforce a competetive environment. Having good ground game is a nice skill to have. I train in BJJ, and I know how effective it could be. Then again, I cannot count the number of times I have been stuck in a choke or armbar, and thought: "I wonder if he could maintain this hold if I used my hand he isn't trying to control and just curshed his balls with a sturdy grip" or "I wonder if he would let go of me if I just plucked his eyes out with my other hand, while biting a chunk out of his leg." I know I would let go. Like I said, many martial arts will give you an edge in a "real" fight, including MMA, mainly because of physical conditioning (Even Bruce Lee entertained the view that most martial arts did not put enough emphasis on building functional strength and stamina, and if you didn't have good abs, you had not business in even considering things like sparring). MMA surely isn't anywhere near useless when it comes to developing combative abilities. Is it better per se just because you fight in a ring? Far from it.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Icyclan</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:45 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>LKL wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />'sport' arts like jujitsu and MMA are good in fights about dominance</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />All fights are about dominance. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>LKL wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />but crap if someone really wants to hurt you:</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />MMA guys know a lot more about hurting than aikidoka. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>LKL wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />they take blows to the head like they're nothing</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Against trained fighters. Not against karate clowns or aikido hippies. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>LKL wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />and when someone goes for your eyes it's good to get your face out of the way.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />And who would have better head movement: someone who practices live combat and trains to avoid punches or someone who trains in an art that only theorizes about it? <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>LKL wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />aikido.... <br />I've trained in aikido for 12 years, and I have to say that it's a mixed bag. Some dojos are essentially teaching partner dance w/o music; <br />others are some of the meanest places you can imagine.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />The only half-decent aikidoka I've ever seen are the practitioners of the full-contact Tomiki style. And they make up less than 1% of all aikidoka. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>LKL wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />In general, aikidoka don't 'fight,' and if someone takes out your eyes or crushes your throat on purpose to<span style="font-style: italic"> end</span> a fight, it's going to be an aikidoka and not an MMA guy.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />... <br /> <br />I'm guessing you don't know any MMA guys. The average MMA guy is far meaner than the average aikido guy. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>LKL wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />That said, the goal of aikido, what we train for for years, is to be able to end a fight with the least amount of damage to our partner. The question is simply how anxious and/or surprised the aikidoist made is by his or her attacker.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />4th dan Aikido teacher of the biggest dojo in Vietnam vs a submission wrestler: <br /> <br /><object width="660" height="405"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PLP_DInpPHE"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PLP_DInpPHE&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="660" height="405"></embed></object><br /><a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=PLP_DInpPHE&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=0" target="_blank"></a><br /> <br /> <br />Aikido black belt vs Judo black belt, this one is especially laughable: <br /> <br /><object width="660" height="405"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AssByvGVx6s"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AssByvGVx6s&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="660" height="405"></embed></object><br /><a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=AssByvGVx6s&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=0" target="_blank"></a><br /> <br /> <br />I couldn't find any aikido vs mma fights, and I'm kind of glad I couldn't.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> </table>
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