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[quote="ArrantPariah"][quote="Jacoby"]Marriage licenses were only invented to stop interracial marriages. [/quote] Not entirely true, although they were used for that purpose. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_license Here is an interesting article http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/26/opinion/26coontz.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all [quote] WHY do people — gay or straight — need the state’s permission to marry? For most of Western history, they didn’t, because marriage was a private contract between two families. The parents’ agreement to the match, not the approval of church or state, was what confirmed its validity. For 16 centuries, Christianity also defined the validity of a marriage on the basis of a couple’s wishes. If two people claimed they had exchanged marital vows — even out alone by the haystack — the Catholic Church accepted that they were validly married. In 1215, the church decreed that a “licit” marriage must take place in church. But people who married illictly had the same rights and obligations as a couple married in church: their children were legitimate; the wife had the same inheritance rights; the couple was subject to the same prohibitions against divorce. Not until the 16th century did European states begin to require that marriages be performed under legal auspices. In part, this was an attempt to prevent unions between young adults whose parents opposed their match. The American colonies officially required marriages to be registered, but until the mid-19th century, state supreme courts routinely ruled that public cohabitation was sufficient evidence of a valid marriage. By the later part of that century, however, the United States began to nullify common-law marriages and exert more control over who was allowed to marry. By the 1920s, 38 states prohibited whites from marrying blacks, “mulattos,” Japanese, Chinese, Indians, “Mongolians,” “Malays” or Filipinos. Twelve states would not issue a marriage license if one partner was a drunk, an addict or a “mental defect.” Eighteen states set barriers to remarriage after divorce. In the mid-20th century, governments began to get out of the business of deciding which couples were “fit” to marry. Courts invalidated laws against interracial marriage, struck down other barriers and even extended marriage rights to prisoners. But [b]governments began relying on marriage licenses for a new purpose: as a way of distributing resources to dependents. The Social Security Act provided survivors’ benefits with proof of marriage. Employers used marital status to determine whether they would provide health insurance or pension benefits to employees’ dependents. Courts and hospitals required a marriage license before granting couples the privilege of inheriting from each other or receiving medical information. In the 1950s, using the marriage license as a shorthand way to distribute benefits and legal privileges made some sense because almost all adults were married. Cohabitation and single parenthood by choice were very rare.[/b] Today, however, possession of a marriage license tells us little about people’s interpersonal responsibilities. Half of all Americans aged 25 to 29 are unmarried, and many of them already have incurred obligations as partners, parents or both. Almost 40 percent of America’s children are born to unmarried parents. Meanwhile, many legally married people are in remarriages where their obligations are spread among several households. Using the existence of a marriage license to determine when the state should protect interpersonal relationships is increasingly impractical. Society has already recognized this when it comes to children, who can no longer be denied inheritance rights, parental support or legal standing because their parents are not married. As Nancy Polikoff, an American University law professor, argues, the marriage license no longer draws reasonable dividing lines regarding which adult obligations and rights merit state protection. [b]A woman married to a man for just nine months gets Social Security survivor’s benefits when he dies. But a woman living for 19 years with a man to whom she isn’t married is left without government support, even if her presence helped him hold down a full-time job and pay Social Security taxes. A newly married wife or husband can take leave from work to care for a spouse, or sue for a partner’s wrongful death. But unmarried couples typically cannot, no matter how long they have pooled their resources and how faithfully they have kept their commitments.[/b] [b]Possession of a marriage license is no longer the chief determinant of which obligations a couple must keep, either to their children or to each other. But it still determines which obligations a couple can keep — who gets hospital visitation rights, family leave, health care and survivor’s benefits.[/b] This may serve the purpose of some moralists. But it doesn’t serve the public interest of helping individuals meet their care-giving commitments. Perhaps it’s time to revert to a much older marital tradition. Let churches decide which marriages they deem “licit.” But let couples — gay or straight — decide if they want the legal protections and obligations of a committed relationship. [/quote] Present rules were established when most adults were married, compared to now, when marriage rates are in steep decline.[/quote]
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visagrunt
Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:22 pm
Post subject:
YippySkippy wrote:
1 Every mention of "marriage" in law should be changed to "civil union".
2 The federal government should pass/maintain laws concerning civil unions, not states. That way there is only one "law of the land" for all.
I think these steps would solve most domestic logistical problems. I agree that it might complicate inter-national partnerships and immigration, but I think with a little brainstorming those issues could also be resolved.
Oh, if only it were that simple.
What about Common Law and equity? The rules of inherentence favouring spouses are not generally found in statute, they are found in court cases. Not only that, a great number of them are found in the law of England and Wales to which US common law jurisdictions have fallen heir.
What about the law of Louisiana? Since it is not a common law jurisdiction, there is an entirely different legal scheme.
What about mentions of "spouse?" What word would you substitute for that?
And, of course, where is the federal governments constitutional authority to legislate in the area of family relations? You're going to need a constitutional amendment for that one.
...or you could just open the existing definition of marriage to include couples of the same sex.
YippySkippy
Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:18 pm
Post subject:
1 Every mention of "marriage" in law should be changed to "civil union".
2 The federal government should pass/maintain laws concerning civil unions, not states. That way there is only one "law of the land" for all.
I think these steps would solve most domestic logistical problems. I agree that it might complicate inter-national partnerships and immigration, but I think with a little brainstorming those issues could also be resolved.
CSBurks
Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:06 pm
Post subject:
visagrunt wrote:
Well at least you are merely a romantic, rather than delusional.
Probably delusional too.
visagrunt
Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:50 pm
Post subject:
Well at least you are merely a romantic, rather than delusional.
CSBurks
Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 1:16 am
Post subject:
visagrunt wrote:
CSBurks wrote:
I should note that I don't believe in government either.
Like you don't believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy; or like you don't believe that it's a good idea to leap off tall buildings without a parachute?
The latter.
hyperlexian
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:38 pm
Post subject:
it's politics
about
people of the applicable status. by moving the thread here, it invites more people of the applicable discussion to join in.
starkid
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:27 pm
Post subject:
Hmm, on second thought, I like the no tax breaks at all idea some people have mentioned.
hyperlexian wrote:
moved from Politics, Philosophy, and Religion to LGBT Discussion
Why? I see a whole lot of politics being discussed, and very little LGBT stuff being discussed.
visagrunt
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:03 pm
Post subject:
So, Yippy, when you fill out those papers at the government office, what happens if one of you lives in another state/province/country? Do you still get those benefits? What happens if you move to the state/province/country where the other one lives?
Those questions are straightforward if the paperwork you filled in was a marriage certificate. Those questions are unresolved if it's a civil union.
I suggest the French route:
Marriage:
Go to church--no legal benefit.
Go to the registry office--full legal benefit. And called a marriage, so that its recognition under conflicts of laws doctrines are established.
starkid
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:02 pm
Post subject:
The federal government should not recognize
any
marriages. Except in the case of people with foreign partners who wish to become citizens, I can't think of a single reason why the government should be involved in romantic/sexual relationships. For things like child-rearing, taxes, hospital visitation, etc., everyone should be able to enter into a legal contract with whomever they want to, whether or not they are in a romantic/sexual relationship. The rights given to married people are discriminatory to non-married couples, friends/roommates who are living together and sharing expenses, and people with multiple romantic/sexual partners.
YippySkippy
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:15 pm
Post subject:
Civil Unions - Go to a government office. Fill out papers. Receive legal benefits.
Marriage - Go to church/temple/where-you-will. Say whatever words work for you. Celebrate.
visagrunt
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:32 pm
Post subject:
CSBurks wrote:
I should note that I don't believe in government either.
Like you don't believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy; or like you don't believe that it's a good idea to leap off tall buildings without a parachute?
CSBurks
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:57 am
Post subject:
I should note that I don't believe in government either.
visagrunt
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:21 am
Post subject:
CSBurks wrote:
The government should not be involved in marriage at all. This is an issue for churches/religious organisations and/or the individuals in question.
See above.
So long as tax, property ownership, estates, custody and guardianship, capacity to consent to another person's medical care, evidence law and a host of other areas of law give preferences to a person's spouse, the government
is
involved in marriage.
CSBurks
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:02 am
Post subject:
The government should not be involved in marriage at all. This is an issue for churches/religious organisations and/or the individuals in question.
visagrunt
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:00 pm
Post subject:
YippySkippy wrote:
Civil Unions. Not just for gay people, for everyone.
If some couples also choose to get married, then that will be nobody's business but their own. No license, no paperwork, no government record-keeping involved.
YippySkippy wrote:
Civil Unions involve paperwork. All of the legal benefits that are offered to married couples could be offered to those joined by a Civil Union (and in some cases already are).
So which is it: no paperwork or paperwork?
And I'll offer up this little problem for your consumption. Under the
Constitution Act, 1867
, "marriage and divorce," is a matter within the federal jurisdiction in Canada. However, "solemnization of marriage," and, "property and civil rights," are matters within provincial jurisdiction. So while the federal government can enact legislation to say that a same sex couple can marry, the federal government cannot say that a same sex couple can enter a civil union. Furthermore, there is nothing to require ten different provincial schemes for civil union to correspond with each other. As we have already seen, such relationships in Québec provide no interest in community property or obligation for spousal maintenance upon dissolution.
So how are federal laws that impact spouses to be reconciled with 10 different provincial approaches to civil union? How are international legal matters (like cross-border child custody and guardianship, and passport and immigration matters) to be addressed?
Marriage is a known quantity, and there are centuries of jurisprudence to guide us as to how differences in marriage law are to be accommodated. All of that gets tossed out the window if you unceremoniously tear up the law of marriage and put a new construction in its place. Even countries that have disposed of legal recognition of religious marriage have retained the civil law concept of marriage in order to avoid precisely this fiasco.
Public policy should favour the simplest solution, rather than the most complex. If the price of religious adherents' peace of mind is the amendment of thousands of statutes, then I say it is not worth the price. Argentina, Belgium, Canada, Iceland the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, South Africa, Spain and Sweden have all demonstrated that it is a simple legislative solution. Why sit on the beach and try to hold back the tide?
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