Post 4623270 - (Asperger's and Being Considered "Disabled")

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[quote="aghogday"][quote="vermontsavant"][quote="aghogday"][quote="Silvervarg"][quote="aghogday"]Post[/quote]
Swing and a miss.

[quote]The information from Wiki and from the article about psychopaths, are far from the many disabling impacts of autism that have been evidenced by third party evidence by myself and others throughout the full course of this thread. [/quote]
Why do you keep bringing this up?
And that's "other", since it's still only one, who simply posted the criteria for the diagnosis.

[quote]Even the ability to solve math problems is dependent on the emotional process of the intrinsic reward of dopamine that provides one pleasure as they arrive at solutions to problems. [/quote]
You do realise that you just said that people who do not get a kick out of it (no matter how small) can do math, right?

[quote]There is no escaping emotion in the decision making process. For an individual that spends their entire day solving math problems, they may arrive at more logical conclusions at the end of the day, than someone that is digging ditches; it is dependent upon the individual, innate factors, experience, and environment. An individual that might not have the innate, environmental, or experience to solve math problems would likely have a deficiency in providing correct logical mathematic solutions, and an individual that does not have the same social/communication skills, will likely have a deficiency in providing logical answers to social issues, per difficulties with social skills/communication skills. [/quote]
And basic statistics says that people inclined towards logical decisions will end up making more logical decision, than someone who isn't. It's very simple, if something is more likely to occure, it will generaly occure more often. That is why it's easier (a.i statisticly more likely) to hit 7 with two regular dice, than 2 or 12, and much easier than hitting 0 or 14.

[quote]If a person does not say a thing all day long except for the sky is blue, because it is the only answer in social communication that they are sure that is based on reason, per their ability to answer a question, it doesn't provide an advantage in the skills necessary to engage in social communication that lead to logical outcomes, nor does it make the person a more logical individual. [/quote]
Failed example, specific conditioned agruments cannot be held against a general conditioned argument unless it disproves the base of the argument. Yours do not.

As I've stated before, lack of evidence is not an evidence to the contrary.

[quote]Fear is obviously a major associated emotion, involved in inhibiting social communication, but fear of being able to provide logical outcomes in social communication, due to inherent, experiential, or environmental factors, is obviously not an advantage in providing logical outcomes in communication, instead it is an impairment in social communication that is evidenced to result in disability in autism, per the criteria that measures and provides diagnoses for autism spectrum disorders.[/quote]
Are you implying that most uncommunicative people on the autistic spectrum is this because they fear the responce? If you do, I want to know where the heck you got that from, and if you don't... then I have no clue what you're trying to say.

[quote]Can you see why from the broad perspective of autism spectrum disorders, that any advantage one might have in logic per solving math problems, creating computer programs, or providing facts only in conversation, pales in comparison to the many evidenced actual disabling factors associated with autism spectrum disorders.[/quote]
Did I miss the post that made this thread a contest in irrelevant statements?[/quote]

[quote]By "many others" you mean Sweetleaf... [/quote]

I responded to this statement you made by providing a comprehensive list of the real disabling aspects of autism that are evidenced by third party sources, and by others in this thread.  I provided most of the third party evidence on Autism as a disabling condition as provided summarized in my previous post. One individual provided third party evidence on the diagnostic criteria that provide specific impairments that are the source of disability in autism, and Janissy provided evidence that emotions are involved in 90 percent of decisions that human beings make.

And, while you have provided only anecdotal evidence for your claim, there are many others in this thread that have provided their own anecdotal evidence for the other reasons that their autism spectrum disorders are disabling in their lives that have nothing to do with advantages in making logical decisions. Your anecdotal evidence of how you see things in your own life carries no more weight in evidence than their anecdotal evidence of how they see things in their life, per the disabilities associated with autism spectrum disorders.

I stated the ability to solve problems with math are dependent on inherent, environmental, and experential factors.  The ability to solve math problems is in part dependent on inherent factors, which include the emotional process which occurs automatically in the limbic system, providing the neurochemical dopamine that provides the ability for individuals to problem solve, including mathematical problems and social problems.  Dopamine provides a reward in the pleasure Center of the brain, no matter how small, in providing motivation to arrive at solutions to problems in life.  And research provides evidence that increases in the neurochemical of dopamine provide greater incentives for individuals to complete math problems.

ADHD symptoms are clinically recognized as co-morbid symptoms associated with autism spectrum disorders, so there is a direct relationship, in the problems that some have in staying motivated to gain logical outcomes in math problems.  Dopamine provides the motivation to complete any task in life, including movement.  Humans are dependent upon the limbic system and emotions for survival.

[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15229048[/url]

[quote]CONCLUSIONS: The significant association between methylphenidate-induced dopamine increases and the interest and motivation for the task confirms the prediction that methylphenidate enhances the saliency of an event by increasing dopamine. The enhanced interest for the task could increase attention and improve performance and could be one of the mechanisms underlying methylphenidate's therapeutic effects. These findings support educational strategies that make schoolwork more interesting as nonpharmacological interventions to treat ADHD.[/quote]

While there are people who are more inclined to make perceived logical based decisions, there are no statistics that individuals with autism are more inclined to make logical based decisions on average.

Some do make very good logically based decisions, however there is evidence to the contrary that as a group individuals with ASD's make more logical based decisions on average than the general population that are not diagnosed with a disorder that inherently limits brain function.

[url]http://psychcentral.com/disorders/autism.htm[/url]

[quote]The majority of adults with autism need lifelong training, ongoing supervision, and reinforcement of skills. The public schools' responsibility for providing these services ends when the person is past school age. As the child becomes a young adult, the family is faced with the challenge of creating a home-based plan or selecting a program or facility that can offer such services.

In some cases, adults with autism can continue to live at home, provided someone is there to supervise at all times. A variety of residential facilities also provide round-the-clock care. Unlike many of the institutions years ago, today's facilities view residents as people with human needs, and offer opportunities for recreation and simple, but meaningful work. Still, some facilities are isolated from the community, separating people with autism from the rest of the world[/quote]

[quote]3. If 2 is true, (social) errors in the communication are punished by the surroundings, so people try to avoid that. 
4. If 3 is true, then people will if possible avoid saying things that might result in said punishment.[/quote]

Those are your statements above that I was responding to; my response on fear and avoidance was in agreement that it can play a part in limiting social communication, but it is not necessarily predictive of whether or not someone is more logical than someone else.  Some are rarely afraid to make responses in social communication, regardless if the responses are accepted as logical social ones or not.

I have provided the broad perspective of the impact of autism spectrum disorders, that provide evidence without a shadow of a doubt that the majority of individuals diagnosed do not have the ability to make the logical decisions in life, required to gain independence in life.  There are millions of individuals evidenced in the world that experience autism spectrum disorders as a disabling disorder.

You based your statement on your own personal opinion that autistic individuals are more logical than the rest of the population.  That statement is solidly disproven by thousands of third party resources that provide the extent of the problem that most autistic people have in making logical decisions in every day life functioning.  I can start listing them one by one if you like.  Here are a few.

[url]http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/health/your_health&id=7870808[/url]

[url]http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=Helpline1&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=66015[/url]

And there is also evidence that this is not just limited to those that are often called "low functioning individuals with autism".

[url]http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/2011/people-with-milder-forms-of-autism-struggle-as-adults[/url]

[quote]People with milder forms of autism struggle as adults

Blurred boundaries:

Social skills have a greater impact on quality of life for people on the autism spectrum than do any specific diagnoses. Contrary to popular assumption, people diagnosed with so-called mild forms of autism don’t fare any better in life than those with severe forms of the disorder. That’s the conclusion of a new study that suggests that even individuals with normal intelligence and language abilities struggle to fit into society because of their social and communication problems.

In fact, people diagnosed with pervasive developmental disorder-not otherwise specified (PDD-NOS) are no more likely to marry or have a job than those with more disabling forms of autism, according to a Norwegian study published online in June in the Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders1.

Early intervention has the potential to alter this trajectory, say experts. But until today’s children with autism reach maturity, it will be hard to say how much behavioral intervention at a young age can alter the course of their lives.

“The implication of our findings is that the consequences of having an autism spectrum disorder with profound difficulties in communication skills and social impairment can’t be compensated for by either high intellectual level or normal language function,” says lead investigator Anne Myhre, associate professor of mental health and addiction at the University of Oslo in Norway.

These findings provide support for the proposed merging of pervasive developmental disorder into the autism spectrum in the DSM-5, the edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) set to be published in 2013, the researchers say.

The new edition of the manual takes a spectrum approach, absorbing the separate categories of childhood disintegrative disorder, Asperger syndrome and PDD-NOS into the broad category of autism spectrum disorder. The draft guidelines note that symptoms must appear in early childhood and affect everyday functioning.

“I’m glad that the authors see this as support for the DSM-5 proposed definitions,” says Sally Rogers, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at the University of California, Davis’ MIND Institute. Rogers is a member of the neurodevelopmental working group revising the diagnostic criteria for autism.[/quote]

Can your provide any third party evidence to refute any of these findings?

Your opinion is meaningful to you, however it does not match the evidence as it exists on the issue of people with ASD's, being more logical on average than the rest of the population.  The fact is that ASD's for most individuals diagnosed, are inherently disabling in making the decisions required for independence in life.

And just in case you don't feel like the evidence I provided is precise enough to match what is or what is not logical decisions in life, in regard to the ability of autistic individuals; that specific question has been studied and evidenced. While autistic individuals are evidenced to perform well on non-verbal tests of reason, they are evidenced as less logical than than non-autistics per their ability to contextualize complex verbal material.

The control group in the study was evidenced as having cognitive abilities that were not significantly different than the group of autistic individuals studied.

This study does not address the 38% of individuals measured with autism that are measured as having intellectual disabilities, or the over thirty percent of individuals that are in the boarder line range of intellectual disability.  Only about a third of autistic individuals are measured as having normal to above intellectual abilities, per the study funded by the Government CDC agency that provided the 1 in 88 statitistic.

[quote]Instead of being more rational or more sensitive to the logical structure of the problems, autistic participants were less able to integrate contextual information into their representation of the tasks, or, potentially, less able to combine information from different sources. Autistic children can process complex nonverbal information, and they are also able to reason with
relations, as suggested by their performance on the Raven test (e.g., Dawson et al., 2007), and pictorial tests of analogical reasoning (Morsanyi & Holyoak, in press). Nevertheless, in the case of the present tasks autistic children showed less contextualization than the control
group. Moreover, when contextualization did occur it required more effort than in the control group. Taken together these data suggest a delay in the development of the ability to
contextualize complex verbal material in the autistic group (see also Lopez & Leekham, 2003).[/quote][/quote]you  must agree that most of the time autistics are generaly more rational in there way of thinking[/quote]

Autistics have been shown to excel in non-verbal tests of reasoning, per the evidence provided above, that equal and actually exceed control groups in some cases, however per the study above their ability to contextualize complex verbal material is less than those of similiar tested intellectual abilities, resulting in lower logical abilities.

Many logical decisions in life, are associated with social interaction, so while there may be strengths in the ares of non-verbal reasoning, there is evidenced disability in the type of logical reasoning required in social interaction that requires heuristic processing and the ability to contextualize complex verbal material.

In testing individuals with Aspergers in card games where winning and losing are subjective emotional factors that normally influence decisions, this can provide an advantage for individuals with Aspergers over those without Aspergers, because some are not influenced as much by emotion as the control group members.

This is an advantage in this type of scenario, alone the lines of non-verbal testing,  but not one evididenced where complex verbal material must be contextualized.

Rationality has different definitions..  As it relates to schizotypal  or "magical thinking", there is a correlation studied in individuals with Aspergers that correlates with higher levels of schizotypal or "magical thinking".

So, individuals on the autism spectrum have strengths and weaknesses per different definitions of rationality, but overall they are not evidenced as being more rational than the rest of the population per schizotypal thinking studied in individuals with Aspergers, or the overall ability of individuals with autism spectrum disorders to contextualize complex verbal material.  Inidivduals across the spectrum, though, do quite well on non-verbal tests of Abstract reasoning.

If one were to use this site as an example to their only exposure to autism spectrum disorders one would come away with many different viewpoints of this issue, per anecdotal evidence, per forum, or per which individual they were reading.

It is highly dependent on individual differences, environment, diagnosis, inherent factors, culture, education, and probably a thousand other factors.  But, per the majority of individuals that have difficulties to disabilities in functioning in everyday life actually measured as professionally diagnosed, there is no overall advantage measured in rationality or logical ability per all those studied with ASD's.[/quote]

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