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[quote="Chris71"]OK now someone is now preaching their religious views down my throat. [quote]...the scientists need to look for ways to cure the neurological conditions involved. First do no harm. [/quote] Would be nice. But how do you explain that to those 'proud aspies' on here who preach the "there's nothing to cure" and try to ram that down our throats?[/quote]
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<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="100%" class="forumline"> <tr> <th class="thCornerL" width="22%" height="26">Author</th> <th class="thCornerR">Message</th> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>aghogday</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:28 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Wolf pack behaviour - Stereotypes VS quality information</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>awd wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">In popular literature, wolf packs are often portrayed as strictly hierarchical social structures with a breeding "alpha" pair which climbs the social ladder through fighting, followed by subordinate "beta" wolves and a low ranking "omega" which bears the brunt of the pack's aggression. This terminology is based heavily on the behaviour of captive wolf packs composed of unrelated animals, which will fight and compete against each other for status. Also, as dispersal is impossible in captive situations, fights become more frequent than in natural settings. In the wild, wolf packs are little more than nuclear families whose basic social unit consists of a mated pair, followed by its offspring.[66] Northern wolf packs tend not to be as compact or unified as those of African wild dogs and spotted hyenas,[67] though they are not as unstable as those of coyotes.[68] Southern wolves are more similar in social behaviour to coyotes and dingoes, living largely alone or in pairs.[69] The average pack consists of 5–11 animals; 1–2 adults, 3–6 juveniles and 1–3 yearlings,[70] though exceptionally large packs consisting of 42 wolves are known. Wolf packs rarely adopt other wolves into their fold, and typically kill them. In the rare cases where strange wolves are adopted, the adoptee is almost invariably a young animal of 1–3 years of age, while killed wolves are mostly fully grown.[71] The adoption of a new member can be a lengthy process, and can consist of weeks of exploratory, non-fatal attacks in order to establish whether or not the newcomer is trustworthy.[72] During times of ungulate abundance (migration, calving etc.), different wolf packs may temporarily join forces.[73] Wolves as young as five months and as old as five years have been recorded to leave their packs to start their own families, though the average age is 11–24 months. Triggers for dispersal include the onset of sexual maturity and competition within the pack for food and breeding.[74]</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Above excellent passage has disappeared from Wikipedia. It is extremely relevant because most of what else can be found online about wolf pack behaviour repeats old stereotypes from captive wolf research, apparently unaware that the 'fight for dominance' theory was disproved long ago through studies of natural wolf packs in the wild. <br /> <br />Does anyone know where to find up to date quality research about wolf pack behaviour online? <br /> <br />Ps. Sorry to but in - I know this wasn't the point of the discussion.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gray_wolf&diff=498643566&oldid=498193046#Social_structure" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gray_wolf&diff=498643566&oldid=498193046#Social_structure</a> <br /> <br />Here is a link to the historic page where the information can still be found in Wiki, in case you want to pursue some of the referenced links in the article, to find more information.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>AWD</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:00 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Wolf pack behaviour - Stereotypes VS quality information</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">[quote]In popular literature, wolf packs are often portrayed as strictly hierarchical social structures with a breeding "alpha" pair which climbs the social ladder through fighting, followed by subordinate "beta" wolves and a low ranking "omega" which bears the brunt of the pack's aggression. This terminology is based heavily on the behaviour of captive wolf packs composed of unrelated animals, which will fight and compete against each other for status. Also, as dispersal is impossible in captive situations, fights become more frequent than in natural settings. In the wild, wolf packs are little more than nuclear families whose basic social unit consists of a mated pair, followed by its offspring.[66] Northern wolf packs tend not to be as compact or unified as those of African wild dogs and spotted hyenas,[67] though they are not as unstable as those of coyotes.[68] Southern wolves are more similar in social behaviour to coyotes and dingoes, living largely alone or in pairs.[69] The average pack consists of 5–11 animals; 1–2 adults, 3–6 juveniles and 1–3 yearlings,[70] though exceptionally large packs consisting of 42 wolves are known. Wolf packs rarely adopt other wolves into their fold, and typically kill them. In the rare cases where strange wolves are adopted, the adoptee is almost invariably a young animal of 1–3 years of age, while killed wolves are mostly fully grown.[71] The adoption of a new member can be a lengthy process, and can consist of weeks of exploratory, non-fatal attacks in order to establish whether or not the newcomer is trustworthy.[72] During times of ungulate abundance (migration, calving etc.), different wolf packs may temporarily join forces.[73] Wolves as young as five months and as old as five years have been recorded to leave their packs to start their own families, though the average age is 11–24 months. Triggers for dispersal include the onset of sexual maturity and competition within the pack for food and breeding.[74][/quote] <br /> <br />Above excellent passage has disappeared from Wikipedia. It is extremely relevant because most of what else can be found online about wolf pack behaviour repeats old stereotypes from captive wolf research, apparently unaware that the 'fight for dominance' theory was disproved long ago through studies of natural wolf packs in the wild. <br /> <br />Does anyone know where to find up to date quality research about wolf pack behaviour online? <br /> <br />Ps. Sorry to but in - I know this wasn't the point of the discussion.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Inventor</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:02 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">What this article proves is Psychology is not a Science. <br /> <br />It is Propaganda, lies told to promote one point of view over another, Psych Warfare, Marketing, Advertisings. <br /> <br />A graph of the benefits of modern life, care of the disabled, vs the use of modern life to eradicate them, pre natal tests for Downes Syndrome, other conditions, run strongly in favor of protection. <br /> <br />Psychopath is a term without meaning, not defined. Even taking the popular meaning, not following the public views of something, it is still what is wanted for a company CEO. <br /> <br />To judge the entire population by the Ted Bundy Standard, makes as much sense as the standards of people over seven foot tall. <br /> <br />As for caregiver killers, I think them outnumbered by mothers who drown their children. Some use batch processing, strap them in the car seats and drive it into the lake, others take them one at a time for baths. Neither is much of a model for child care. <br /> <br />Mothers who bathe their children are taking them seconds from being Murdered! Shampoo, rinse, quit wiggling, this will only take a minute. <br /> <br />The old name was Retoric, speaking in ways that would influence opinon. As several points of view might be expressed, learning to speak to what was generally true to most people, facts plus political reality, was the goal. <br /> <br />This article has all the style of J Edgar Hoover in, The Red Menence, Red Rats trying to steal the same freedoms he was. <br /> <br />Her study has been women who kill, of those, caretaker killers, who she has studied, interviewed, and focused her life on. She has to disagree with them in public, but she is drawn to them. Somehow, all of life is a larger model of her Special Interest. <br /> <br />I think statistics show more people die from being struck by lightning. <br /> <br />After 9/11, people stayed away from planes. The excess deaths from traffic exceeded the lives lost in the towers, within two years. Doing the safe thing caused thousands to die. <br /> <br />This article seems about avoiding risks, like being groped by the TSA in the safest form of transportation, while ignoring tired people driving SUVs while talking on the phone. <br /> <br />Psychology Today will publish articles that Huffingtom Post would turn down.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>vermontsavant</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:29 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>aghogday wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>heavenlyabyss wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Actually, I think the author is dead on. The use of "psychopath" may be slightly exaggerated but the general point of her article carries great weight. <br /> <br />Some people may say the author sounds paranoid but in reality she is getting at the heart of what lies deep in the souls of common men. Capitalistic society is built on competition, it is built on taking advantage of the weak. I have seen many people take great pride in their utter and complete disregard for the weak so the author is really not all that far off. I mean, seriously, I see it everywhere. <br /> <br />Her view reflects the attitude of most hardcore conservative republicans. I am talking about the extremists of course. But even those who don't have these extreme views think these thoughts to themselves, they just try to deny it to themselves. Very few people can face head on the true evil within their heart.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Competition is life. No animal can completely escape that reality, regardless of what environment or society they live in. For most of human history physical strength and good health played a much larger role in survival than it does in modern societies. It still plays a larger role in some societies that do not have the cultural infrastructure to support those whom are disabled. In general the weak have a greater advantage in human society than they ever have had in history, because of the benefits society, not the evils of society. <br /> <br />If competition is evil all of nature is evil. <br /> <br />The problem with the article was that the author was suggesting there is a growing "wolf pack/psychopathic tendency targeting the disabled in society. She provided no evidence to support her opinion, other than reflections of what she's read in some reports in the media lately. Not likely she believes in evil as a scientist; the wolf pack and psychopath analogy is the closest thing she can find to what some others identify as such, but still myth based, at least in part, per the evidence as it exists. <br /> <br />At this point in time the disabled have the greatest historical advantage in the US, per legislation that has extended health care that has been made available to those under 19 with preexisting medical conditions and expansion of health care to age 26. Some people want to take it away, but to this point it is something additional that society has provided to the disabled through the political process, that has influenced greater rights for the disabled since FDR, one whom had a serious disability, leading society toward an infrastructure that provided assistance for the disabled and the disadvantaged. <br /> <br />The continuing battle to provide additional care for the disabled and disadvantaged through increased health care availability and access has been one going on for decades; but part of that battle has been won, and no matter what happens to the legislation, part of the expanded benefits for the disabled and disadvantaged will remain intact. <br /> <br />Societies that take care of the disabled and disadvantaged are measured as healthier societies in the world. The US isn't one of the healthiest ones, but in part there is an attempt to advance that health through the measures legislated that are currently still in effect. <br /> <br />Close to half of the country is against this effort. Are they misguided? Perhaps. Are they evil and do they have dark intent in their heart? Not much more likely than what one sees in the reality of a real pack of wolves in the wild taking care of a nuclear family. <br /> <br />Many express concerns about the long term financial survival of their own family, regardless if their rationale is logical or fact based given the larger consequences in society or their potential future as it may relate to their own needs. I don't agree with that type of logic but I don't see any evidence of evil. <br /> <br />The reality in life, is that anyone at anytime can become disabled, no one has control over that potential; unfortunately some whom are fortunate enough not to have been personally touched in this realm of reality, ignore the potential of it, including the reality of those that are disabled. There is no evidence of evil there either; in part, just another evidenced aspect of human nature attempting to maintain order in a chaotic work through whatever defense mechanisms one finds effective. <br /> <br />Evil, psychopath, wolf pack mentality, are all overused analogies, evidenced as defense mechanisms, used by humans to provide a sense of order, to the chaos of life, where competition and cooperation is evidenced as an inherent part of animal nature. <br /> <br />Modern societies, overall, provide life for the disabled to varying degrees of cooperation across societies. Many individuals with disabilities, depend on the infrastructure of society for survival. Life is evidenced as much more difficult for those with disabilities in developing countries, with little cultural infrastructure, including medical care. Modern society is a savior for those with disabilities, well above any potential harming force.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody">this woman does strike me as weird and i just dont see a connection between serieal killers and abortion and euthenasia of the disabled. <br /> <br />this is one of those sitiuations where the foolish stumble on a point by accident.regardless of how delusional and paranoid this author may be i must agree that mercy killings,abortion of disabled people are at an all time high and we dont need to go over the same over posted statistics to prove it. <br /> <br />i dont believe there is any wolfpack mentality or that act of euthenasia are comparable to ted bundy or charles manson.its a somple matter of inocent ignorance people realy believing there doing the sick or injured or disabled a favor by relieving there misery</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>aghogday</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:37 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>heavenlyabyss wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Actually, I think the author is dead on. The use of "psychopath" may be slightly exaggerated but the general point of her article carries great weight. <br /> <br />Some people may say the author sounds paranoid but in reality she is getting at the heart of what lies deep in the souls of common men. Capitalistic society is built on competition, it is built on taking advantage of the weak. I have seen many people take great pride in their utter and complete disregard for the weak so the author is really not all that far off. I mean, seriously, I see it everywhere. <br /> <br />Her view reflects the attitude of most hardcore conservative republicans. I am talking about the extremists of course. But even those who don't have these extreme views think these thoughts to themselves, they just try to deny it to themselves. Very few people can face head on the true evil within their heart.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Competition is life. No animal can completely escape that reality, regardless of what environment or society they live in. For most of human history physical strength and good health played a much larger role in survival than it does in modern societies. It still plays a larger role in some societies that do not have the cultural infrastructure to support those whom are disabled. In general the weak have a greater advantage in human society than they ever have had in history, because of the benefits society, not the evils of society. <br /> <br />If competition is evil all of nature is evil. <br /> <br />The problem with the article was that the author was suggesting there is a growing "wolf pack/psychopathic tendency targeting the disabled in society. She provided no evidence to support her opinion, other than reflections of what she's read in some reports in the media lately. Not likely she believes in evil as a scientist; the wolf pack and psychopath analogy is the closest thing she can find to what some others identify as such, but still myth based, at least in part, per the evidence as it exists. <br /> <br />At this point in time the disabled have the greatest historical advantage in the US, per legislation that has extended health care that has been made available to those under 19 with preexisting medical conditions and expansion of health care to age 26. Some people want to take it away, but to this point it is something additional that society has provided to the disabled through the political process, that has influenced greater rights for the disabled since FDR, one whom had a serious disability, leading society toward an infrastructure that provided assistance for the disabled and the disadvantaged. <br /> <br />The continuing battle to provide additional care for the disabled and disadvantaged through increased health care availability and access has been one going on for decades; but part of that battle has been won, and no matter what happens to the legislation, part of the expanded benefits for the disabled and disadvantaged will remain intact. <br /> <br />Societies that take care of the disabled and disadvantaged are measured as healthier societies in the world. The US isn't one of the healthiest ones, but in part there is an attempt to advance that health through the measures legislated that are currently still in effect. <br /> <br />Close to half of the country is against this effort. Are they misguided? Perhaps. Are they evil and do they have dark intent in their heart? Not much more likely than what one sees in the reality of a real pack of wolves in the wild taking care of a nuclear family. <br /> <br />Many express concerns about the long term financial survival of their own family, regardless if their rationale is logical or fact based given the larger consequences in society or their potential future as it may relate to their own needs. I don't agree with that type of logic but I don't see any evidence of evil. <br /> <br />The reality in life, is that anyone at anytime can become disabled, no one has control over that potential; unfortunately some whom are fortunate enough not to have been personally touched in this realm of reality, ignore the potential of it, including the reality of those that are disabled. There is no evidence of evil there either; in part, just another evidenced aspect of human nature attempting to maintain order in a chaotic world through whatever defense mechanisms one finds effective. <br /> <br />Evil, psychopath, wolf pack mentality, are all overused analogies, evidenced as defense mechanisms, used by humans to provide a sense of order, to the chaos of life, where competition and cooperation is evidenced as an inherent part of animal nature. <br /> <br />Modern societies, overall, provide life for the disabled to varying degrees of cooperation across societies. Many individuals with disabilities, depend on the infrastructure of society for survival. Life is evidenced as much more difficult for those with disabilities in developing countries, with little cultural infrastructure, including medical care. Modern society is a savior for those with disabilities, well above any potential harming force.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>edgewaters</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:50 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>heavenlyabyss wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">I have seen many people take great pride in their utter and complete disregard for the weak so the author is really not all that far off. </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />She may be on to something but it's so sloppy, so easy to knock holes in, it would've been better not written or at least not published in the media. It's worthy, perhaps, of a forum thread but not much more than that. It would not even be good enough that I'd want it on the front page here, let alone in a glossy mainstream publication. <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">The use of "psychopath" may be slightly exaggerated</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Exaggeration isn't the only problem there. She's using one false stigma to attack another, exploiting one social hysteria to attack another - it makes no sense, and ethically, it's extremely dubious.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Oodain</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:49 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">worst part is the word psychopath is very much a media buzz word and not an actual DX or medical term.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>heavenlyabyss</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:42 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Actually, I think the author is dead on. The use of "psychopath" may be slightly exaggerated but the general point of her article carries great weight. <br /> <br />Some people may say the author sounds paranoid but in reality she is getting at the heart of what lies deep in the souls of common men. Capitalistic society is built on competition, it is built on taking advantage of the weak. I have seen many people take great pride in their utter and complete disregard for the weak so the author is really not all that far off. I mean, seriously, I see it everywhere. <br /> <br />Her view reflects the attitude of most hardcore conservative republicans. I am talking about the extremists of course. But even those who don't have these extreme views think these thoughts to themselves, they just try to deny it to themselves. Very few people can face head on the true evil within their heart.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>aghogday</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:52 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>edgewaters wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>aghogday wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">I guess the title of the article rubbed me the wrong way for what I see as a respectable member of the animal kingdom, rather than an evil one demonized for so long in literature. My personal bias showing through. <img src="modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" border="0" /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I quite like wolves myself, but I don't think your criticisms are without merit. It's a very sloppy article on a number of levels. She's using a stereotype about one group of disabled individuals to shame the public at large into not stereotyping or shaming another group of disabled individuals. This seems rather misguided. <br /> <br />I think it's interesting that she observed the same language used for justification of both murder and more garden-variety abuses and neglects. But the only commonality there is a complete lack of empathy, not psychosis.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Her last paragraph was the most unusual to me in her tone, almost accusatory, in her suggestion there were psychopaths lurking specific to her readership environment that were going to dislike her article. Her comment you don't fool me, almost had a paranoid tone to it. There is a great deal of callous behavior evidenced in society; if she sees displays of calloused behavior, even among those that have textbook innate characteristics of psychopathy, as potential murderers, I guess she has her own private reasons of concern. <br /> <br />One statistic I find very interesting is that convicted serial killers numbered at close to 100 a year until the 70's, 80's, and 90's, where the rates shot up to about 300 a year, then suddenly after the year 2000, back down to 100 a year. General crime rates including homicide started dropping in the early 90's at a steady decline that continues in the US. Lots of reasons cited, but those statistics don't appear to support any of her assertions associated with serial killers, or homicides. <br /> <br />Her life's work hasn't likely been colored by an upbeat work environment, her world view is likely much different than most people's by now. It seems to come through loud and clear in the article.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>edgewaters</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:43 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>aghogday wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">I guess the title of the article rubbed me the wrong way for what I see as a respectable member of the animal kingdom, rather than an evil one demonized for so long in literature. My personal bias showing through. <img src="modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" border="0" /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I quite like wolves myself, but I don't think your criticisms are without merit. It's a very sloppy article on a number of levels. She's using a stereotype about one group of disabled individuals to shame the public at large into not stereotyping or shaming another group of disabled individuals. This seems rather misguided. <br /> <br />I think it's interesting that she observed the same language used for justification of both murder and more garden-variety abuses and neglects. But the only commonality there is a complete lack of empathy, not psychosis.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>aghogday</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:33 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>edgewaters wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>aghogday wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">My point in criticism of the article per the wolf-pack mentality of society, and the concerns of the disabled, is that it is family that most depend on, and larger society and the policies of politics that are more likely to bring them harm in life, than the potential of psychopathic family member or psychopathic individual in society at large. The author's concern is real per extremely limited circumstances, but she does not adequately discuss the full scope of the concerns of the disabled, per survival in life.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I read what the author was trying to do, as linking the motivations and drives of psychotic killers with those of "normal" people who seek to do harm or wish to cut loose the disabled from support (presumably causing them to perish). As per the part where it is stated that the psychotics universally responded with the same sort of language used to justify certain policies and other measures against the disabled.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />In my opinion that was an actual issue that is part of the phenomenon that she didn't address in that some of the killers of the disabled have been diagnosed as psychotic/insane at the time of some of these killings. <br /> <br />Psychotic is in reference to psychosis, part of various mental disorders, that some observed "normal" people can fall to given negative environmental circumstances and/or substance abuse issues. She did mention serial killers, which have been evidenced as psychotic, but serial killing is extremely rare and is evidenced at about 100 convictions in the last decade in the entire US; she specializes and has written a book associated with the much rarer phenomenon of female sex crime serial killers getting jobs in nursing homes and potentially raping individuals in Nursing Homes, but it's an extremely fringe element of society. I've never heard of a women raping an elderly person in a Nursing home, if it's happens it appears to be kept hidden from the media. <br /> <br />Psychopathy is considered a lifelong condition where some literally do not have the ability to feel the emotions of shame, remorse, having shallow emotions excluding pro-social emotions, as well not experiencing fear. <br /> <br />She equates the fact that some of the reports of these individuals that killed the disabled did not feel shame for the killings, however she doesn't cite an actual case for review. <br /> <br />There have been some cases where individuals showed no shame and remorse, associated with blunt affect, and others whom felt justified in mercy killing, but the lack of affect in showing these emotions in an incident is not evidence of psychopathic behavior, without a case history of the individual. It is evidence of a lack of expression of emotion, which can be because of many different reasons other than psychopathy, in some cases autism, per issues with verbal and non-verbal communication. <br /> <br />That is a literal interpretation of what psychopathy is, but she clearly stated psychopathic behavior is psychopathic behavior; that's only true if it is evidenced as psychopathic behavior, rather than callous behavior seen in one circumstance. <br /> <br />There is definitely a lack of concern, in general, evidenced for the disabled and disadvantaged seen in society, and rare cases where the disabled have been murdered per the factor of disability, but that's not an overall issue defined by psychopathic behavior, psychotic behavior, and certainly not serial killing. From what I have seen reported psychotic behavior is the strongest reported associated factor among those three elements. But, she doesn't specifically mention it, in the article. <br /> <br />Her first comments in the article per euthanasia of the disabled as a whole, is not a society driven point of view, in fact, at least in the US, there is an evidenced opposite sentiment, even in cases where suffering is so bad and relentless that most people would put their animals out of misery, if they were suffering as such. <br /> <br />There was a medical ethicist that presented this point of view in a peer reviewed journal that received death threats from the public, and outcry against the peer reviewed journal, that accepted publication for what was a philosophical point of view from academia, associated with abortion ethics. <br /> <br />It was clear that this is not an acceptable social norm from the comments in that article, however the author in the psychology today provided no references for her claims, for review, so I don't know if she has come across another source or not. But, if she was using that source as the example, it was an isolated opinion, and strongly rebuked by most everyone that commented on the article, including death threats. <br /> <br />I don't see compelling evidence that the disabled are being targeted anymore than other elements of the population per what others in the population see below themselves, because of cultural and physical differences. Facebook attacks against others, are certainly not specific to disability, and can be associated with almost anything, that someone decides they don't like. It's reflective of what one sees in society as a whole as well, but it's recorded for review, and can be studied as a society wide phenomenon, whereas in the past, the reports were more limited per criminal incidences reported in the media. <br /> <br />There is evidence that people do avoid the disabled, and show a lack of concern for the disabled, however I would have to be shown evidence that they are being targeted for euthanasia and there is greater sentiment, in the US, that they are parasites, before forming an opinion that is becoming a larger problem. Or that they are becoming targeted as the victims of killing at a significantly higher rate than the past. <br /> <br />The disabled receive more respect and rights in society today, than they have ever before, per legal rights. But, it's hard to legislate attitudes that vary, depending on one's world experience. <br /> <br />I was disappointed in her review of the situation, because I would expect a well credentialed expert to at least provide some cited references in her article to support her argument, to get some measure if this issue she reports as an increasing problem is based on a few isolated media reports on the internet, or there is actual evidence of an increasingly pervasive phenomenon specific to individuals with disabilities. <br /> <br />There is evidence that people in general are losing measured levels of empathy for others, in at least one longitudinal study of college adults, but it is a general phenomenon that could be applicable to a non-disabled person taking the parking spot of an individual with a disability to yelling and screaming at the fast food restaurant cashier or drive through window person, because they were out of an item or they waited an extra 15 seconds. <br /> <br />Perhaps that hasn't changed as much in the general public as one might suspect from what one sees reported, as well, because of greater access to information, per diagnostic information for the overall health of society. Hyperbole definitely influences world views. One thing for sure, is it's harder to get peoples attention and patience is not what it used to be overall in society. That's one factor that I think most agree on. And that's definitely associated with what people perceive as empathy and concern for others. So it makes it hard to determine how much of it is intentional. <br /> <br />There is this one commercial that I continue to hear on the radio, about the hypnotic states of Americans. More hyperbole to sell a book, but I think there is an element of truth to it. A human specific issue associated with culture, that is about as far away from the wild wolf-pack mentality that one can travel. <br /> <br />I guess the title of the article rubbed me the wrong way for what I see as a respectable member of the animal kingdom, rather than an evil one demonized for so long in literature. My personal bias showing through. <img src="modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" border="0" /></span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>edgewaters</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:10 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>aghogday wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">My point in criticism of the article per the wolf-pack mentality of society, and the concerns of the disabled, is that it is family that most depend on, and larger society and the policies of politics that are more likely to bring them harm in life, than the potential of psychopathic family member or psychopathic individual in society at large. The author's concern is real per extremely limited circumstances, but she does not adequately discuss the full scope of the concerns of the disabled, per survival in life.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I read what the author was trying to do, as linking the motivations and drives of psychotic killers with those of "normal" people who seek to do harm or wish to cut loose the disabled from support (presumably causing them to perish). As per the part where it is stated that the psychotics universally responded with the same sort of language used to justify certain policies and other measures against the disabled.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>edgewaters</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:29 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Psychology Today on The Danger of the Wolf Pack Mentalit</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>thewhitrbbit wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Umm...I hate to point out but if your worked about aborting autistic people and such, might want to keep in mind that it's LIBERALS who are pushing for more access to abortion. Might also want to mention that the great eugenics of the 20th century in Germany was under the banner of National Socialism, a LIBERAL political view.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />The Nazis were liberal, oh my. How warped American propaganda has become. Water is dry and the sun gives off darkness, now. <br /> <br />The Nazis were a populist, conservative movement. Yes, there were elements of socialism (which is a very different thing from liberalism, and in no respect could the Nazis ever be termed liberal), but they occurred in a conservative context - the Nazi political experiment was to wed socialism to right-wing attitudes and desires, so that instead of having a system to benefit the population, it was a system to benefit the conservative population and exterminate everyone else, as seems to be the secret lust of radical conservatives in all times and places.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Inventor</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:56 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Psychology is not a Science. If it was it would seek to merge with Cultural Anthropology, and not blame other species for human behavior. <br /> <br />While this article condems some behavior, and blames wolves, those truly holding the view that the disabled among us, even in our disconnected excess population, deserve to be treated well, would be addressing that issue. <br /> <br />The greatest predicter of future behavior is education. People like the writer call for sending first offenders away for life. School to jail programs are popular, where a list of dropouts is not sent to the Trueant Officer, but to the Police. Those who survive form gangs, and crime is their only means of support. <br /> <br />Those who are educated, learn a trade, do not form gangs and live by crime, which reduces the need for government. <br /> <br />Rome gave people bread, because otherwise they would steal it. Meeting basic social needs is cheaper. <br /> <br />Egypt gave people bread and onions and more for working stone, and building useless but impressive structures. <br /> <br />That those who kill themselves are guilty of murder is a recent religious view. In Rome a father had a right, and sometimes an obligation to kill his children, just as the State has a right to send armies to their death, kill those who abandon their posts, flee from the enemy, and feed ordinary criminals to lions, for public education. <br /> <br />Babylon, Egypt, Greece, Rome, China, and many later cultures had a good part of the population making brick, carving stone, in return for being fed. <br /> <br />Roman roads, bridges, aquaducts, are still in use, and they built great sewers. <br /> <br />Unity of culture, economic well being, are the main functions of a State. <br /> <br />When it fails, loots the public purse, it seeks to blame Psychopaths, other than themselves, and Terrorists, everyone who objects. <br /> <br />The numbers are in, counting face eaters, psychopaths not employed by government number thousands, as do worldwide terrorists. <br /> <br />This did not cause our lack of education, lack of employment for all who want to work, and it is not the fault of those living longer and collecting Social Security. These are known needs, and were paid for by the people. <br /> <br />All governments have had the rich and poor. From that they did reach a unity of culture. Capital and Labor did the same. Only our recent version of Rich Democrats and Rich Republicans have lead to a Rich/Rich world, where the poor are being blamed for the poor. <br /> <br />The Mentality in the article is people taking charge of their own situation, and the disabled are a cover for hanging the Facists by their heels from a lamp post, the usual result of Government by and for the rich. <br /> <br />The population has no right to get rid of usless drains on their lives. <br /> <br />Who are the useless leaches? Who would the people turn on? <br /> <br />Psychology is a government sponsored program of Psych Warfare, and the manipulation of Public Opinion. <br /> <br />When the French chopped off heads, it was not murder, it was disposing of a government that failed in their obligations to the people. <br /> <br />Election years bring out these kinds of articles, deflecting blame on those who are too few to defend. <br /> <br />The government gave trillions of our money to their rich banker and broker friends, they did not spend it on Health, Education, Welfare, and full employment. They did not support the families who are caring for a disabled person. They did buy a lot of weapons. They did abolish the Constitution. <br /> <br />A Government by and for the rich, supported by arms, against the people. <br /> <br />Now they claim they are protecting the rights of the disabled, and preventing the murder of minorities. <br /> <br />It was not the disabled, Jews, Gypsies, who said, "Let them eat cake."</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>aghogday</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:59 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>noname_ever wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>aghogday wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />The Pack mentality equivalent in human beings, in my opinion, is closer to the analogy of a small hunting group in society. One species against other species. <br /> <br />I'm not even sure I would equate gangs with it. They seek subsistence through a common group activity, but it is generally against the same species. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I disagree with this. Animals don't fight with others of the same species? <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>aghogday wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />The author uses the analogy of one for the thinking of large elements of society, but the pack mentality is really only specific to small groups of social animals, whether they are humans, dogs, or wolves. <br /> <br />The only time in my memory of a real cohesive element in the US, was 9/11, that brought a country as large as the US, focused on a single concern. Even the most popular TV show, is watched by only a tiny minority of the population, except for major events like the Olympics. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />We were more unified after 9/11 but in no way completely unified. There were still dissenters who did not like the path the country was headed down and those that were annoyed at the sudden cowardice of most of the USA after the towers crashed.(Many people became very frightened and it lead to controls being put in place that annoyed those of us who weren't phased by the attack.) <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>aghogday wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Unfortunately in some ways, large populations evidenced with great levels of heterogeneity, no longer address the needs of those that are hidden from the group, if one even has a group that they identify with, per the me attitudes of modern society. <br /> <br />This isn't something that humans were evolved for, for millions of years. <br /> <br />It's not likely that thousands of primates other than humans, could survive well in a small area. Human society is an experiment of necessity, but not necessarily the experiment that works the best. I came across an interesting website of the 25 most peaceful societies in the world. Low density populations with few technological advantages are common to all of them. With the only society rated as such, in the US, as the Amish. <br /> <br />The key is that people share and cooperate in these small societies, that are usually homogenous in nature. It is in alignment with what humans are evolved for, so it's no surprise that overall, it works out better for the entire group of individuals that comprise these small societies, than what we see as a lack of concern for others in large heterogeneous societies. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />People work well in small packs with people they are closer to. The individuals in the group feel responsible for others in the pack. The problem I have with this pack analogy is that it wants to treat an entire population as a pack. Would the entire population of wolves or domesticated dogs within the USA be considered a pack as well? <br /><snip> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>aghogday wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Perhaps a much larger issue, is that most people are not aware just how dependent they are on social welfare programs for their existence, ranging from roads to schools, to electricity, that social programs provide the infrastructure for. That would be impossible without roads. Those are the more observable elements but there are many more that impact almost everyone, everyday of their life. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />I think people generally know that they have to work together to accomplish large tasks. However, I think many people are resentful for having to carry people who can't or won't carry their own weight or contribute what they can. There is also a tendency for the disabled to believe that they are entitled to be carried completely and not have to or even want to contribute what they can back to society. I don't care if that means someone needs to work a hellish suck-ass job that they don't like. Consider multi-generation families living in the same house. The younger generations work, provide room/board to the older generation (consider them the non-disabled). The older generation (consider them the disabled) used to work by doing chores or baby sitting for the workers' children. The older generation did carry at least part of their weight. <br /> <br />I don't see that same give and take in society at large. I see people getting resentful when a relatively large portion of their assets are taken to care for others. I see those receiving the money not caring about the burden they place on the producers. Neither group cares about the plight of the other.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I'm not suggesting that animals don't fight each other within the same species, or kill each other at times, but it is exception, not the rule among those that live in wolf packs in the wild. Wolf packs are commonly demonized as a stereotype by human beings. The wolf pack myth continues, but it has been debunked for over ten years now, by scientists that have actually studied wolf packs in nature, rather than captivity. <br /> <br />Unfortunately the author of the article not only potentially starts an internet myth about a defining factor of psychopathy and the killing of the disabled since she hasn't provided significant evidence to back up the opinion, she also uses an analogy that is a myth itself, per wolf-pack mentality, and how those of that same species of Wolf interact as a pack in nature. It appears to be closer to the tribal nature of non-domesticated human beings, than modern human culture, where status is related to needs that go well beyond basic survival. <br /> <br />Wolves in the wild do not display the same type of behavior that has been studied in captivity. The Hierarchy and dominance seen among captive unrelated wolves, is not the same seen in the wild. <br /> <br />Captive wolf pack behavior has been influenced, in part, by association with human culture through human captivity. Wolf pack mentality in nature is associated with a nuclear family of wolves that mate for life, and live with their offspring. <br /> <br />The wolves do target the weak among others species for subsistence, if they didn't they would likely starve to death, because success of killing the strong among other species is much lower, and injury to the pack as a whole is much greater. <br /> <br />If humans had no weapons it's not likely any small group of humans would be able to chase down a much faster, stronger, larger species of animal, they would do there best to kill smaller weaker prey, if they could find anyway to accomplish the feat. <br /> <br />Prehistoric man likely exhibited the same behavior in bringing down targets per the weak for subsistence, with rudimentary weapons, working as a group to bring down larger stronger species of animals. <br /> <br />Targeting the weak of another species for subsistence, is a natural phenomenon seen among all predators, certainly not a behavior specific to wolf packs, or excluded among humans without weapons, when survival is at stake. Anyway, that's a hunting issue, specific to members of others species, not a non-cannibal issue related to members within the same species. <br /> <br />Modern man with advanced weapons kills for sport, to bring down the healthiest strongest animals, at times, simply for the opportunity to display the head of the fallen animal in their den, for a culturally derived sense of self-esteem. Subsistence is not an issue at all for some. <br /> <br />Unfortunately humans have attributed human characteristics, associated with human culture to wolves. <br /> <br />The studied wolf pack nature in the wild, is a docile group of animals that are averse to aggression within the pack. <br /> <br />Wolf packs will fight other wolves for encroachment into territory for competition to subsistence, and the danger for the lone wolf that leaves the pack is greater in these circumstances. These wolves are at times run off and not killed by other wolves, however wolf packs will often kill weaker species of Canis in competition for territory and subsistence <br /> <br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_wolf" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" class="postlink" >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_wolf</a> <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">In popular literature, wolf packs are often portrayed as strictly hierarchical social structures with a breeding "alpha" pair which climbs the social ladder through fighting, followed by subordinate "beta" wolves and a low ranking "omega" which bears the brunt of the pack's aggression. <span style="font-weight: bold">This terminology is based heavily on the behaviour of captive wolf packs composed of unrelated animals, which will fight and compete against each other for status. Also, as dispersal is impossible in captive situations, fights become more frequent than in natural settings. In the wild, wolf packs are little more than nuclear families whose basic social unit consists of a mated pair, followed by its offspring.</span>[66] Northern wolf packs tend not to be as compact or unified as those of African wild dogs and spotted hyenas,[67] though they are not as unstable as those of coyotes.[68] Southern wolves are more similar in social behaviour to coyotes and dingoes, living largely alone or in pairs.[69] The average pack consists of 5–11 animals; 1–2 adults, 3–6 juveniles and 1–3 yearlings,[70] though exceptionally large packs consisting of 42 wolves are known. Wolf packs rarely adopt other wolves into their fold, and typically kill them. In the rare cases where strange wolves are adopted, the adoptee is almost invariably a young animal of 1–3 years of age, while killed wolves are mostly fully grown.[71] The adoption of a new member can be a lengthy process, and can consist of weeks of exploratory, non-fatal attacks in order to establish whether or not the newcomer is trustworthy.[72] During times of ungulate abundance (migration, calving etc.), different wolf packs may temporarily join forces.[73] Wolves as young as five months and as old as five years have been recorded to leave their packs to start their own families, though the average age is 11–24 months. Triggers for dispersal include the onset of sexual maturity and competition within the pack for food and breeding.[74]</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />There was obviously a significant portion of the US that dissented against the policies after 9/11, but overall it was a unified moment for the culture on the day the event occurred, and there were many in powerful positions that kept dissent for the policies that were enacted after the event much quieter, than would have likely been the case, under circumstances other than an overall cultural reaction to a foreign attack of significant scale on the soil of the US. <br /> <br />It is long gone and forgotten per US culture, at this point by most, until another unifying attack of that scale happens in the future on American Soil, or natural disaster, that impacts everyone in the nation. Hurricane Katrina was not significant enough to rise to that occasion, regardless of damage to a region in the US. <br /> <br />Perhaps human nature is somewhat similar to the nature of the wolf pack confined to captivity, in what we see among domesticated human beings living with each other in high density populations, per highly complex cultural rules and practices, opposed to those human beings that still live in primitive societies, historically observed by anthropologists and sociologists, as very cooperative and peaceful compared to human beings in developed countries. <br /> <br />Many social animals in the world do show empathy for animals that have been injured, and disabled when there is a social bond between animals, that in effect is associated with some of the same hormonal bonds per oxytocin that exist in human beings. But the reality of nature is that when animals are born disabled they are often killed as part of instinct, in part a result of environmental pressures and evolution. And when it comes down to survival and limited resources sick and disabled animals are often left behind. <br /> <br />Society and technological innovation, provides the ability for human animals that are sick and disabled to survive that has never been possible at any before in human history, or animal history. <br /> <br />Whether or not human beings have concern for something in their environment is highly influenced by cultural conditioning, and much more complex than what any animal that does not live within the boundaries of human culture has to deal with. <br /> <br />Some people want other people to have the same viewpoints on these issues, and some have difficulty understanding how others could possibly hold some of the opinions that they do, but it is almost impossible in some cases to influence those different viewpoints, because others may potentially have a lifetime of cultural conditioning that leads them to a completely different viewpoint. <br /> <br />In part, this seems to be the case for the author that wrote the article that has a strongly influenced world view per psychopathy/crime and apparently the stereotyped world view of wolf-pack mentality, that is based on information, that has been debunked for over a decade, per scientific studies of wolf packs in the wild. <br /> <br />But as wolves are more likely to kill another species, in competition for resources, the same applies to human beings. The continued myths that demonize wolves, in part, endanger the extinction of some wolf species, through government policies and human behavior to hunt the wolves into extinction. <br /> <br />But reality is, it's another species, and there isn't the type of overall within species bond of empathy for most to stand up to others, and criticize the demonic portrayal of another species of animal, or even the demonic portrayal of psychopathy, in the same species that is in part a genetic human trait that is rare, and perhaps the one mental disorder that one would rarely hear anyone seriously defend among potentially socially disabling conditions. <br /> <br />It is a genetically influenced mental disorder historically identified for the most part in individuals that commit crimes, rather those evidenced with the traits that take part in enforcing the criminal justice system, the defense of the country, and now fairly recently in CEO's, Politicians, Stock brokers, and other professions. <br /> <br />The difference is the traits are evidenced as an advantage in these various professions as well as in crime; these various professions are part of a human construct per acceptable social norms, as opposed to unacceptable social norms per crime. Unless one is part of a sub-culture centered around crime, where the behavior can be seen as acceptable within the boundaries of that sub-culture. Seen in serial killing, and mass murders, it is rarely accepted by anyone in any identified sub-cultural group. <br /> <br />In Autism a similar psycho/social phenomenon has been described per Jeffrey Dahmer and Anders Breivik and the lack of empathy described as associated with Aspergers in the media per these cases, as opposed to others diagnosed with Aspergers that have made positive contributions to their societies. <br /> <br />Human Reality rarely fully supports socially derived stereotypes either positive or negative; there is usually a mix, per any condition, per factors of the complexity of the nature of human beings and human constructs associated with culture. <br /> <br />There is no greater evidenced crimes of serial killing or mass-murders among those on the Autism Spectrum as opposed to the general population; some people will take the highly notable ones, and extrapolate the few noted cases into populations of hundreds of thousands of people. <br /> <br />A similar phenomenon has happened among some in the autistic community that point to a stereotype of parents of children with autism, that as a whole are more likely to murder children with autism, because there are several cases a year, that receive a great deal of media exposure, as rare cases of filicide in the media. Even extended to one acknowledged irrational thought by one individual, provided for public review, several years ago. <br /> <br />Stereotypes can be dangerous and present themselves everywhere where human beings can make an association in their limited world views, often weighted strongly by personal experience, rather than third party evidence. <br /> <br />The third party evidence is worthwhile as a measure against potential prejudiced opinions, of which are an evidenced inherent part of the nature of all human beings, and almost impossible to escape, at times, without some type of third party evidence that refutes the prejudice. <br /> <br />This may be one of the most compelling reasons for an endorsement of science, and the scientific method. Science has the potential to save lives by debunking stereotypes, even the ones of culturally demonized wolves. <img src="modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" border="0" /></span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> </table>
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