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DerKodeMeister
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29 Jun 2010, 11:23 pm

Alright so basically my friend and I were talking a lot about logic, and exactly what it is. We then started talking about how he doesn't like the high school we both go to, and we then decided to see where this went. He has never been to another high school. I have. The argument gets a little muddy at times and I know my statements at times seem a little pointless but the conversation itself is about pure logic. He seemed pretty sure that I wasn't being logical, so I'm interested in some other opinions. One thing I did do (overdo?) was to try to simplify the argument as much as possible. In doing so, I skipped over some variables that I deemed (perhaps foolishly) unimportant, such as how do we define something that "sucks", and how could you quantify the suckiness of a school? I tried to really really simplify by reducing it to a binary argument, but I'm beginning to think I over-simplified.

Anyways the conversation is here:

http://pastebin.com/aqgfuLcc


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MrXxx
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01 Jul 2010, 7:14 pm

The problem is you are, I think, trying to quantify "suckiness," which is a concept that is subjective. Any subjective concept is quantified by the observer, so that there will be as many different quantification as there are observers. What further complicates this issue is that what sucks to anyone is also subjective to emotional reactions, which are impossible to quantify in an individual, much less a two or more people. You're discussing fluid variables that can't be broken into simple "yes's" or "no's" which is basically what pure logic attempts to do.

Pure logic isn't effective for all analysis. This is the reason computers will never experience emotion, because all a logic cuircuit understands is pure "yes's" (or "circuit closed") and "no's" ( or "circuit open"). There is no room for "middle ground" in pure logic.

Suckiness may mean one thing to you, and something entirely different to someone else. There is no accurate way to quantify the difference. All you can really do is approximate it. Logic leaves no room for approximation, so it's an ineffective means of dealing with the subject.


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DerKodeMeister
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01 Jul 2010, 9:17 pm

Agreed. I've been thinking about this a lot and I agree. I've been trying for years to figure out ways to represent anything, even human emotion, through binary statements, but I'm beginning to think it can't be done with a Turing machine. I suppose you could write algorithms for every single possibility but such a calculation would be ridiculously inefficient. There would have to be another way.


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01 Jul 2010, 10:31 pm

Formal logic has no application in that linked conversation.


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02 Jul 2010, 8:05 am

It's a shame that you didn't bother to define "suckiness" earlier in the conversation. The entire conversation boils down to how you are both using different definitions for "suck" but since neither of you define it, neither of you realize that your defintions are different.

Suck:

his definition: to be an experience that is neither enjoyable nor more useful than other ways of spending the same amount of time

your definition: to be of worse quality than other things or experiences in the same category




Had you hammered out a definition from the beginning, the conversation would have been a lot shorter.



DerKodeMeister
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02 Jul 2010, 7:07 pm

That wasn't the point of the conversation, though. Although you are right, we were ultimately talking about formal logic and possible applications in real life.


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Titangeek
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31 Aug 2010, 10:22 pm

MrXxx wrote:
The problem is you are, I think, trying to quantify "suckiness," which is a concept that is subjective. Any subjective concept is quantified by the observer, so that there will be as many different quantification as there are observers. What further complicates this issue is that what sucks to anyone is also subjective to emotional reactions, which are impossible to quantify in an individual, much less a two or more people. You're discussing fluid variables that can't be broken into simple "yes's" or "no's" which is basically what pure logic attempts to do.

Pure logic isn't effective for all analysis. This is the reason computers will never experience emotion, because all a logic cuircuit understands is pure "yes's" (or "circuit closed") and "no's" ( or "circuit open"). There is no room for "middle ground" in pure logic.

Suckiness may mean one thing to you, and something entirely different to someone else. There is no accurate way to quantify the difference. All you can really do is approximate it. Logic leaves no room for approximation, so it's an ineffective means of dealing with the subject.


I disagree, the human brain at is most basic is is a binary circuit (electrochemical signal being sent yes/no) just about 100 billion times more complex then the one in your computer, and so by your argument human emotion is logical, just a very very abstract and complex for of it.


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danandlouie
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31 Aug 2010, 11:09 pm

i have said this before....i am saying it now......i will say it in the future

louie and i travel back roads in search of gentle rolling hills where we can watch the horses graze. louie, being very old, will lie under trees and sleep while i will try to catch leaves as they float on gentle winds. thus the universe was created, is maintained, and will be destroyed. endless cycles. logic will appear and disappear.

ergo......all schools suck (in various degrees) because they are infested with humans.



Titangeek
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31 Aug 2010, 11:25 pm

danandlouie wrote:
i have said this before....i am saying it now......i will say it in the future

louie and i travel back roads in search of gentle rolling hills where we can watch the horses graze. louie, being very old, will lie under trees and sleep while i will try to catch leaves as they float on gentle winds. thus the universe was created, is maintained, and will be destroyed. endless cycles. logic will appear and disappear.

ergo......all schools suck (in various degrees) because they are infested with humans.


Well said... i think


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