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Mama_to_Grace
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03 Sep 2012, 8:55 am

I, as one parent, don't at all mind the adult aspies' point of view that have posted here. I think it goes a very long way to describing their thought processes on trying to understand something which is basically impossible for anyone to understand. I do think it is a bit hypocritical to want their opinions all the time but be very upset when they touch the religion nerve. Their opinions are raw, and uncluttered by political correctness or social etiquette and I don't mind the bluntness of their answers, which in my opinion are as valid as everyone else's.



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03 Sep 2012, 9:01 am

InThisTogether wrote:

If people are not visiting this forum to help, then I suggest you simply don't read it. I mean, I know I am new here. But I am not new to autism, nor am I new to how groups of autistics interact on the internet. Nor am I new to the concept that you are more likely to reach someone and help them change their mindset through kindness and patience and not insults, hatred, and mocking.

Consider me officially annoyed, something that does not happen very often.



This board is here due to the Aspies NOT the parents. Without the Aspies WP would not exist! You cannot shame the aspies for their viewpoint in my opinion when you are in "their house" (for lack of a better term). There are plenty of parenting websites out there without the Aspies if you want the clean pc version of this discussion. It's hard I know-I remember being really upset over several things since I've been on this board-but we must remember, parenting section or not, this is here BECAUSE they are here.



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03 Sep 2012, 9:20 am

Just a note regarding the complaints:

Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable, but attacking the person making the comments is not.
This can be found here http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt73835.html and as far as I know no one has attacked the op for their views they have just tried to provide their own views.

This topic happens to be watched by quite a few moderators at the time for a number of reasons and as far as I know none of us have found/deleted a personal attack on the op.




That said alex is the one that decides how the rules should be applied/changed and any of you can send him your suggestions at [email protected].
Until he says otherwise the rules linked above are what we are going to follow on this section



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03 Sep 2012, 9:29 am

Mama_to_Grace wrote:
InThisTogether wrote:

If people are not visiting this forum to help, then I suggest you simply don't read it. I mean, I know I am new here. But I am not new to autism, nor am I new to how groups of autistics interact on the internet. Nor am I new to the concept that you are more likely to reach someone and help them change their mindset through kindness and patience and not insults, hatred, and mocking.

Consider me officially annoyed, something that does not happen very often.



This board is here due to the Aspies NOT the parents. Without the Aspies WP would not exist! You cannot shame the aspies for their viewpoint in my opinion when you are in "their house" (for lack of a better term). There are plenty of parenting websites out there without the Aspies if you want the clean pc version of this discussion. It's hard I know-I remember being really upset over several things since I've been on this board-but we must remember, parenting section or not, this is here BECAUSE they are here.


I do not mean WP. I mean the "Parent's Discussion" part in specific. No one needs to come here--to the Parenting Discussion part--if they are annoyed by parents. But I think it is crucial that Aspies who are not annoyed by parents and who care to help, do so.

My intent is to shame no one. Honestly. But were it not for the group of adults on the spectrum that I met when this was all new to me and the guidance they gave me, I don't even know where I'd be right now. My head would be full of what the "experts" say and I shudder to think where that would have left my kids.

No, the way certain views are expressed here--on WP in general-- does not "get to me." I understand where people are coming from and I have learned how to read through the way the words are expressed to find the meaning. I am used to interacting with aspies on the net, and you see similar behavior no matter where you go. I get it. I'm not bothered on a personal level.

But new people coming here for help? They will never stay if this is the way that they are treated. The problem is, as I see it, that there are few who would come on this part of the board to browbeat and mock parents. Most that I see come here because they want to help and to share a different perspective. But when you get a small number who come here and speak in a way that is rude and disrespectful, you lose people. When you lose people, you lose the opportunity to change people's perspectives. And when those people happen to be parents of autistic kids, that is really, really bad.

I don't think being on the spectrum is an excuse or license to disregard the feelings of others, to verbally berate others, or engage in any other number of verbally cruel behaviors. Many Aspies who do this, do this unintentionally, and when it is brought to their attention, they correct their behavior. Some have been hurt and their hurt bleeds through. Others are just plain mean and cruel, just like any other human being. There are ways to express your opinions without calling people ignorant, stupid, or any other number of words used on this thread.

I would not recommend that parents go to "parenting websites." Some of them border on being dangerous.

But I think the "Parents Discussion" should be a safe place for parents. If they venture out to the rest of the board, then they need to do so with the understanding that they might come across some pretty raw stuff. But most parents seeking help on the net are in a pretty raw place themselves. They don't need to come here to receive a verbal bashing. It's not helpful.


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03 Sep 2012, 10:01 am

be happy she doesn't want this imaginary friend called jesus or god… be happy she is normal and healthy! good for her! :cheers:

this is what always immediately comes to my mind when i hear about religions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_friend

and

http://www.childmind.org/en/health/diso ... izophrenia

i would suggest you would listen very careful to her and learn from her. she may actually be able to help you to overcome your religious fixations, and become responsible for your own life and thoughts. there is really no need for imaginary friends...



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03 Sep 2012, 10:06 am

I really don't think my comment was all that bad. My intention was to encourage a logical thought process. All I done was replace "AS" with "general mental ability" and "empathy" with "logical ability" to show how offensive it is to make the claim. I even worded it as close as I could to the OP's claim to make sure people picked up on it. Of course I don't actually think that of religious people and make a point of saying my theory is unfounded.


InThisTogether wrote:
This needs to be a safe place for parents to ask questions. Because if they don't ask them here, they might ask them somewhere else, where they will not have the benefit of autistic insight.


Totally agree with this. However, there is a difference between asking how a parent could go about getting their kids interested in a religion and throwing claims that autism and the mental incapacity it brings are the cause for being "unsaved". I wouldn't know where to start explaining how offensive it is, I have been mega pi**ed off over it since the thread was posted, it's an attack on autistic people, on a forum filled with us no less. You're just going to get flak for it, whether it's on an autistic forum, or over on a wheelchair users forum claiming them not being able to get up the steps into the church is the reason they're unsaved.



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03 Sep 2012, 10:20 am

Cherrycoke, I did not find your contribution offensive or inappropriate in the least. You raised a very valid point that is thought provoking and worthy of consideration by the OP.

But "ignorant religious sheep"? "BS"? "Sky fairies"? How are statements such as these thought provoking? How are they helpful? If someone feels compassion or concern or identification with the OP's daughter, how is insulting her mother going to help her? It isn't.

There are a lot of parents out there with really skewed perspectives. Believe me. I know them. This forum has the potential to show them how wrong they are. And in doing so, it saves the next generation of autistic children from a lot of the damage done to my generation. But bashing, berating, browbeating, and belittling is not going to show anyone how wrong they are. It is going to leave them running for the hills, spreading the message that adults on the spectrum do not have valid input.

I hate that.

A lot.

And I think I am going to get to the point soon where this will be one of those topics in which I will go on and on and on and not be able to stop myself, so I am going to try not to read it anymore.

If anyone wishes to PM me about it, I am open to that.

But this topic (not Christianity or religion, but the "bigger" issue, which I don't even know if I can put into words) is "pinging" one of my...I don't know what to call it. For my son it is justice. If he thinks something is unjust, he cannot let it go. But this topic is my "thing." I need to respectfully bow out. Otherwise I am likely to perseverate for days.


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03 Sep 2012, 10:30 am

While it's clearly tempting to post opinions on religion generally, that isn't why Marms started this thread.
I'm sure if she wanted a debate she would have started a different thread in PPR but as it is, she is simply asking for advice on how to help her daughter.

Consequently, I would ask that unless you intend posting with advice or suggestions in direct response to Marms' query and in the same spirit as it was asked - please; don't post to this thread at all.
If you want a debate about religion then post to the correct forum - PPR.

Thanks.


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03 Sep 2012, 11:37 am

I'll chime in. There's a BIG difference between how NT kids and aspie kids experience their early to mid childhoods. NT kids generally have happy lives: peers are drawn to them, adults are charmed by them, and they can make each of those things happen just by existing, or if necessary, turning on their cuteness charm. The only people immune to their charms would be older siblings, and even then, they can get their parents to take their side if need be. On top of that, permissive parenting is de rigeur nowadays, making the lives of NT kids even more pleasant. In a nutshell, they quickly get the message that the world loves them. So the notion of a supernatural invisible being loving them seems perfectly reasonable. So in turn, they're very receptive to religion.

Not so with aspie kids. Very quickly, they get the message that life's a female dog. Peers bully them, parents get angry at them for "not getting it", and adult strangers laugh at them. Siblings quickly turn their parents against them with a perfect phrase and a cute smile. They try to connect with people, but only to get hostile reactions in return. The world has complete power over them, and there's jack they can do about it. So in that case, the notion of a "god" loving them seems like BS at best. In their minds, if people who have a tiny fraction of god's power treat them like crap, why would god treat them any better? I know for a fact that I used to believe that god makes me miserable for the sadistic pleasure of it. Needless to say, I turned atheist at an early age.

Maybe the OP's daughter feels the same way. And the Bible stories describing god's wrath are only confirming her beliefs. I rest my case.



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03 Sep 2012, 12:47 pm

It is, as has been pointed out, important to remember what the goal is here, and that is to help the mother be the best mom to her daughter she can be. She isn't going to be argued out of caring about her daughter getting saved; faith is a big part of who she is, and of course she wants that for her child. That is something Tallyman, as a moderator, does understand, even though he does have very strong and emotional feelings on the question, and it was important for the mom to see that side, as well.

Statistically there may be less believers among those with AS than among NTs, but there is no evidence that faith and AS are incompatible concepts. My son, as I posted, is very faithful. Many other members of this forum are also very faithful. But I do think that someone with AS is likely to approach the question differently, and perhaps the OP wouldn't consider my son's approach good enough to mean he is saved, but I strongly feel differently: my son is exactly as God wants him to be, and his relationship with Jesus is exactly what God chose for him. Still, there are evangelicals among our AS members, and perhaps one of them could find this thread and talk about their personal experience with their faith, to give the mom some ideas on how her daughter might find the emotional connection her faith leads her to believe is needed.

To the mom, I continue to ask you to view faith more broadly, and be less concerned about your daughter meeting every precept of your faith (like the personal connection to Jesus dying for our sins), so you can be more open to the ideas of allowing her to find her faith road in a different version of Christianity. I've sometimes felt that God gave me an AS child to raise just to make sure I really opened my mind and dropped some remaining assumptions about life and faith I had held; my AS son has most certainly challenged my thinking on almost everything! God made my son the way he is, and made me his mother, so there must be a plan in there somewhere, right? It is our job as parents and people of faith to find it, even if it leads us into very unexpected places.

As for empathy, my son has plenty, but it is very different than the type of empathy we are used to. It isn't immediate, in the moment, so it is more difficult to see and understand. Just look for it in your daughter. It's there.


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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 03 Sep 2012, 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DW_a_mom
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03 Sep 2012, 12:54 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
I'll chime in. There's a BIG difference between how NT kids and aspie kids experience their early to mid childhoods. NT kids generally have happy lives: peers are drawn to them, adults are charmed by them, and they can make each of those things happen just by existing, or if necessary, turning on their cuteness charm. The only people immune to their charms would be older siblings, and even then, they can get their parents to take their side if need be. On top of that, permissive parenting is de rigeur nowadays, making the lives of NT kids even more pleasant. In a nutshell, they quickly get the message that the world loves them. So the notion of a supernatural invisible being loving them seems perfectly reasonable. So in turn, they're very receptive to religion.

Not so with aspie kids. Very quickly, they get the message that life's a female dog. Peers bully them, parents get angry at them for "not getting it", and adult strangers laugh at them. Siblings quickly turn their parents against them with a perfect phrase and a cute smile. They try to connect with people, but only to get hostile reactions in return. The world has complete power over them, and there's jack they can do about it. So in that case, the notion of a "god" loving them seems like BS at best. In their minds, if people who have a tiny fraction of god's power treat them like crap, why would god treat them any better? I know for a fact that I used to believe that god makes me miserable for the sadistic pleasure of it. Needless to say, I turned atheist at an early age.

Maybe the OP's daughter feels the same way. And the Bible stories describing god's wrath are only confirming her beliefs. I rest my case.


This is a really interesting post.

My AS son has had a happy childhood, he'll tell you that even if he is aware of his burdens and the ways he hasn't been as lucky as some other kids. But he truly is a happy person who is grateful for his gifts and loves his family. He has been lucky in many ways, blessed with religion teachers who adored him because he asked so many "interesting" questions while the other kids seemed eager to get out of class, and so on. It probably does make a difference. Wow.

Not all AS kids spend their lives being in the "weird" box. In the right community around the right people, they can feel accepted and thrive. I do believe it can and should exist for every child, and I've been known to encourage parents to change situations when they don't have it. We've jockeyed things a few times, because I just refused to allow things to linger too long when my son was around people who couldn't see his spark, as I call it. He needs to be around people who can see his spark, and since plenty of people can, it was easy for me to chase that. I wish it was that way for every child on the spectrum. I know it is not, but it should be.

It's not like my son is popular; he isn't. It isn't like he doesn't have rough times; he does. But he is generally accepted by peers, and has "just enough" adults willing to talk on and on about how much they adore him.


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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 03 Sep 2012, 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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03 Sep 2012, 1:00 pm

TallyMan wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Tallyman, you could have said "brainwashing a helpless child" instead of "shoving BS down her throat", but that's just my opinion.


You are right. I apologise to the OP and others I have offended. I allowed my own extremely negative experiences of being force-fed Christianity as a child to raise my anger towards the OP. The beatings with a cane for non-acceptance and refusing to pray started when I was 11 years old. It is the one topic guaranteed to push my buttons and bring out the worst in me; this is not my normal behaviour. I won't post in this thread again. Sorry for my outburst. :(

Unfortunately, I and many others have similar experiences. Where was all of that "Love one another" being practiced when we were kids? I do not blame you for what you feel ... no, not at all.


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03 Sep 2012, 1:35 pm

Marms wrote:
Let me just say to you all that we are born again Christians and have a relationship with God. We don't consider it a religion. We believe the Bible is the word of God. My daughter has been raised in a Christian home all her life and is a believer. She however hasnt been saved yet.


You don't know that! It's also dangerously presumptuous to assume anything like that! No ceremony or specific action or set of words is required for saving - that's between her and God. Period.

Quote:
The problem is that we have been to several churches over the years and leave when we realize they are nothing more than motivational speaking centers. In doing so, my daughter has never gotten truly rooted into it.


Who could blame her? Roots (and friendships) take time to grow... She also needs to see a positive relationship in you (more on that later.)

When she has been in the kids church, because of her AS doesn't make friends or fit in. She sits with us and of course is bored. No one is shoving anything down her throat and since she is a child she will learn to believe the way we feel

That statement right there sounds like a major problem... you say you don't force it... then you do. She's a child in your home she she's going to do what you want whether she likes it or not. She's entering a time in her life when rebellion is common and you're forcing her to do something she doesn't like (and I'm guessing it's the church, not Christianity, that's more distasteful. Push her too hard, she could become a militant athiest like so many others have.

Quote:
a child should be brought up, in Gods word. She sees Godly living in our home every day. We are honest law abiding citizens and expect the same from her. She is at a point now, due to depression and AS that she doesn't care about anything, from school, to Church to washing her hair. And yes, it is due to her AS that she lacks empathy, therefore lacks the normal feeling one would have for a savior dying for our sins, which by the way, we all have.


That's just not true either. *I* have AS and empathy - more than more "normal" people do. It's like any other talent... some are born with it, some aren't. Some can be taught, others can't. The apathy that comes from depression is pretty normal too... help her to learn to live with people while she's still young enough and maybe the root of the depression can be removed! That means special training, not throwing her in the pool and expecting her to learn to swim on her own. (That was my mother's idea of "teaching me social skills"... dragging me to parties and large family get-togethers and just magically expecting me to fit in. I would invariably end up alone in a corner somewhere away from the noise.)

Point is, your heavy-handed approach is NOT working and continuing to do so will only end poorly. If you live a good life and she sees YOU very happy with it and it's doing positive things for you, maybe she'll want to copy/join you. If you're still miserable and mean like my mother-in-law who "looooooooooooooooooves Jesus" - she'll see that it's just baloney and want nothing to do with it.



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03 Sep 2012, 1:41 pm

Marms wrote:
Let me just say to you all that we are born again Christians and have a relationship with God.

Translation: "My husband and I have chosen to accept Jesus as our Lord and personal Savior, based on our emotional response to His teachings."

Marms wrote:
We don't consider it a religion.

Translation: "We consider that obeying the rules as interpreted to us is the only way to show our love for the Lord."

Marms wrote:
We believe the Bible is the word of God.

Inspired or literal? If 'inspired', then it is likely that you cherry-pick those verses that you believe in; but if 'literal' than it is likely that you believe in a flat Earth that is the center of all creation, that 3 is the exact value of Pi, that slavery and the subjugation of women is God's will, and that mass murder is permissible as long as it is committed in God's name.

Marms wrote:
My daughter has been raised in a Christian home all her life and is a believer.

Then she is saved. For it is written: "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household." (Acts 16:31)

Marms wrote:
She however hasnt been saved yet.

Then she does not believe.

Marms wrote:
The problem is that we have been to several churches over the years and leave when we realize they are nothing more than motivational speaking centers.

BINGO! We hava winnah! That's all they are: places to go for your weekly pep talk.

Marms wrote:
In doing so, my daughter has never gotten truly rooted into it. When she has been in the kids church, because of her AS doesn't make friends or fit in. She sits with us and of course is bored.

Then maybe home-schooling is your best option.

Marms wrote:
No one is shoving anything down her throat and since she is a child she will learn to believe the way we feel a child should be brought up, in Gods word.

I'm sorry ... how's that again? You're not forcing her to believe as you do, yet you insist that she will learn to believe as you do. Now, I know that believing in the Bible often causes people to believe two contradictory ideas, but you are either indoctrinating her in the Faith, or you are not.

Marms wrote:
She sees Godly living in our home every day. We are honest law abiding citizens and expect the same from her.

Well, of course you do. It's all those others that have made her reluctant to declare your beliefs as hers. Maybe it's the Media's fault -- cartoons, movies, and PBS ("OMG! Sesame Street! Quick, change the channel!")

Marms wrote:
She is at a point now, due to depression and AS that she doesn't care about anything, from school, to Church to washing her hair.

She's also becoming a teenager, and entering what I call the "Sybil Years" -- that time in a child's life when those raging hormones change a sweet little child into a cynical, uncarin, moping, whining, little *&^%$#@! with more personalities than a guest host on Saturday Night Live.

Marms wrote:
And yes, it is due to her AS that she lacks empathy, therefore lacks the normal feeling one would have for a savior dying for our sins, which by the way, we all have.

Not I. I'm more interested in meeting the man Jesus and asking why the prayers of amputees for the regeneration of their lost limbs go un-answered. But that's just me.

Marms wrote:
And if anyone is beating a child that person is not a Christian in the first place...

In that case, I refer you to Proverbs 13:24 and Proverbs 23:13-14, and offer for your consideration the position that King Solomon must have been the Anti-Christ:

King Solomon the Wise wrote:
"He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" ... "Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell."


Was Solomon a Christian?

Marms wrote:
... so why turn your back on God? He didn't beat you, your misguided ignorant father did.

I have not turned my back on God, only on religion, and those who insist that I am not a Christian for doing so.

Besides, if "Ask and ye shall receive" were true, then why did my father not repent of his sins and accept the Lord before he died? I mean, so many of us prayed for his deliverance, and it is the will of God that all should be saved, right?

The bottom line is this: Your daughter can be brought to Christ through reason, although this is harder to do than getting her caught up in an emotional experience to the point where she feels the presence of the Holy Spirit and submits to God's will. Reason requires a non-confrontational environment where she can come to her own conclusions without coercion or any sense of manipulation. Unfortunately, as "Born-Agains", you and your husband are likely to identify emotionally with salvation, whereas your daughter can only identify on an intellectual basis...

... and there is not one word of praise for intellectualism anywhere in the Bible.


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03 Sep 2012, 2:02 pm

Do we have to send a link to PPR so that you guys get it?(Cornflake already mentioned this thread is not for discussion of religion itself)



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03 Sep 2012, 2:06 pm

I have already suggested that this thread be moved to PP&R, but that suggestion was turned down.

Oh, and what was the title of this thread again? "Asperger's and God", right?

It's impossible to have a meaningful conversation on the stated topic without citing religion.

Unless, of course, you consider God to be only a human construct.


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