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Fnord
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03 Sep 2012, 2:06 pm

I have already suggested that this thread be moved to PP&R, but that suggestion was turned down.

Oh, and what was the title of this thread again? "Asperger's and God", right?

It's impossible to have a meaningful conversation on the stated topic without citing religion.

Unless, of course, you consider God to be only a human construct.


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TallyMan
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03 Sep 2012, 2:23 pm

spongy wrote:
Do we have to send a link to PPR so that you guys get it?(Cornflake already mentioned this thread is not for discussion of religion itself)


I've just created a thread in PPR as an offshoot from this discussion. It isn't about this parent or her child, but the issues surrounding religious "education / indoctrination" of children. I've expressed myself freely there in a way that is not appropriate for the thread here. If anyone want to chip in feel free. It is likely to be quite controversial and possibly heated. http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp4886448.html#4886448



Fnord
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03 Sep 2012, 2:57 pm

Thanks, TM!

:D


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03 Sep 2012, 4:18 pm

You can't force her to believe. It's not the empathy issue, it's the logical nature of the AS brain. AS people tend to be very logical and the idea of a G-d is illogical in many ways.

As you can tell from the hyphenation of G-d, I do believe. It's illogical, but there are things we simply can't explain. A scientist literally said that if we knew everything in the universe, the storage unit would collapse into a black hole.

If anything, perhaps you could approach the issue from the writings of Blaze Pascal, a French philosopher.

"There are no good and sufficient reasons to either believe or disbelieve in the truths of religion. It's basically a toss up if there is a G-d and an afterlife and all, but the safer bet is there is one, because if there is you win, and if not, it doesn't matter anyway."



jekenai
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03 Sep 2012, 5:04 pm

thewhitrbbit wrote:
"There are no good and sufficient reasons to either believe or disbelieve in the truths of religion. It's basically a toss up if there is a G-d and an afterlife and all, but the safer bet is there is one, because if there is you win, and if not, it doesn't matter anyway."


What about this: There is religion A, religion B, religion C and atheism.
If religion A it true, you go to hell for believing in B or C or being atheist.
If religion B (C) is true, you go to hell for believing A or C (B), but you are ok if you are atheist.



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03 Sep 2012, 6:41 pm

Marms wrote:
And yes, it is due to her AS that she lacks empathy, therefore lacks the normal feeling one would have for a savior dying for our sins, which by the way, we all have.


Many people with AS are very deeply religious.

Maybe she is just rebelling or maybe she really doesn't believe it.

Maybe she is having so many difficulties because she is the only 'normal' person she knows and is trying to cope with fitting herself into a world where everyone else seems totally nuts.

It sounds as though YOU have the problem with her not being interested in the church and you are blaming it on her 'weirdness'.
Let her be. Let her celebrate and be proud of who she is. She'll probably always be unhappy if she is always trying to be something that she isn't.


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03 Sep 2012, 6:42 pm

jekenai wrote:
What about this: There is religion A, religion B, religion C and atheism.
If religion A it true, you go to hell for believing in B or C or being atheist.
If religion B (C) is true, you go to hell for believing A or C (B), but you are ok if you are atheist.

Irrelevant to the op/thread.



thewhitrbbit
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03 Sep 2012, 8:47 pm

jekenai wrote:
thewhitrbbit wrote:
"There are no good and sufficient reasons to either believe or disbelieve in the truths of religion. It's basically a toss up if there is a G-d and an afterlife and all, but the safer bet is there is one, because if there is you win, and if not, it doesn't matter anyway."


What about this: There is religion A, religion B, religion C and atheism.
If religion A it true, you go to hell for believing in B or C or being atheist.
If religion B (C) is true, you go to hell for believing A or C (B), but you are ok if you are atheist.


Pascal was a convert to Christianity in real life, but I don't think he ever mentioned a specific religion in the statement.

That is a bit of a tangent though.



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04 Sep 2012, 2:46 am

While I honestly don't care for Fundamentalist Evangelical Protestantism, that isn't the point here. Also, not every FEPC is not over the top, all or nothing, "my way or the highway to hell" type person. The OP truly believes that her religion/relationship with God is beneficial and wants to share it with her daughter. There is nothing wrong with that. She's concerned that her daughter doesn't "get it" because of a lack of empathy. Nothing wrong with that either.

She asked for advice on the topic, not a critique of her religious beliefs.

That being said, we don't all lack empathy. I went to a private protestant Christian school and we all got saved at chapel (weekly chapel) at least once a year and really it was more of a "follow the leader" type thing. It was really a "fad" type thing to a whole lot of us. More of a clique than a real belief. At that age, that can be common. I'm not saying that kids that age may not have deep religious feelings, I'm saying that many don't and will either act like they do or maybe even think they do for the sake of fitting in, even subconsciously. That isn't what you want, I know.

As for churches, I don't know where you live or what denomination you are, so I'd have a hard time recommending one. If you can find a smaller church, maybe even of the Pentecostal deonimination, that might be closer to what you want. Not all Pentecosals do the speaking in tongues slain in the spirit falling down and and all that during church. Down here, the Pentecostal Holiness does that and the Pentecostal is more of a charasmatic church.

I'd also suggest looking for some of the home churches in your area. You might be able to find them on a website. It's usually small groups of people who take turns meeting in peoples homes with either one preacher or the men taking turns preaching. I believe the Duggers go to them. I think Foursquare is a home church movement.

If you can find a good Southern Baptist (member of the SBC) there, that might be more along the lines of what you are looking for, if it's small, but in my experience there are a lot of hypocrites there, however they do preach good, and not everyone is a hypocrit.

The larger the church the more "seeker oriented" they are, and thats what gets you the movitvational speaker aspect of it. If you can find one that "bible based and gospel preaching" that might be what you are looking for. I'd suggest you go alone to check it out first, to make sure that it's not too over the top before you bring your daughter. Also, a good youth program is important if you want her involved in that.

Not all youth programs push the religious aspects either. None of my kids are Christian, but they do enjoy going to youth groups at local churches with their friends. It's more of a safe hanging out spot etc than a prayer meeting type thing, and thats a good place to make friends, and if you find one that doesn't push the religious aspects of it, she may enjoy it.


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04 Sep 2012, 7:02 am

Quote:
While I honestly don't care for Fundamentalist Evangelical Protestantism, that isn't the point here. Also, not every FEPC is not over the top, all or nothing, "my way or the highway to hell" type person. The OP truly believes that her religion/relationship with God is beneficial and wants to share it with her daughter. There is nothing wrong with that. She's concerned that her daughter doesn't "get it" because of a lack of empathy. Nothing wrong with that either.


I'm sorry but there is a whole lot wrong with this. I do not agree with what you say. I've always thought that one of the traits of sociopathy and a psychopath was a lack of empathy. From my perspective they are implying that she is a possible sociopath or psychopath. If I am wrong will you please show me why I am wrong?



OliveOilMom
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04 Sep 2012, 7:23 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Quote:
While I honestly don't care for Fundamentalist Evangelical Protestantism, that isn't the point here. Also, not every FEPC is not over the top, all or nothing, "my way or the highway to hell" type person. The OP truly believes that her religion/relationship with God is beneficial and wants to share it with her daughter. There is nothing wrong with that. She's concerned that her daughter doesn't "get it" because of a lack of empathy. Nothing wrong with that either.


I'm sorry but there is a whole lot wrong with this. I do not agree with what you say. I've always thought that one of the traits of sociopathy and a psychopath was a lack of empathy. From my perspective they are implying that she is a possible sociopath or psychopath. If I am wrong will you please show me why I am wrong?


Many people think that those of us with AS have no empathy as well. Lots of people are taught that, even though it's not neccessarily true. She's not implying that her daughter is a psychopath at all, just that she's been taught that those with AS don't have empathy. That's something you'll have to take up with the professionals, and you should.


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04 Sep 2012, 8:00 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Quote:
While I honestly don't care for Fundamentalist Evangelical Protestantism, that isn't the point here. Also, not every FEPC is not over the top, all or nothing, "my way or the highway to hell" type person. The OP truly believes that her religion/relationship with God is beneficial and wants to share it with her daughter. There is nothing wrong with that. She's concerned that her daughter doesn't "get it" because of a lack of empathy. Nothing wrong with that either.


I'm sorry but there is a whole lot wrong with this. I do not agree with what you say. I've always thought that one of the traits of sociopathy and a psychopath was a lack of empathy. From my perspective they are implying that she is a possible sociopath or psychopath. If I am wrong will you please show me why I am wrong?


I don't see what empathy has to do with belief in God.



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04 Sep 2012, 8:32 am

Mike_Garrick wrote:
Ok, then how about this.
Marms wrote:
due to her AS that she lacks empathy, therefore lacks the normal feeling one would have for a savior dying for our sins, which by the way, we all have.

Your daughter has enough problems in life without her own parents telling her she is an ugly person even in the eyes of her parents and god.
Enforcing that she is not only physically ugly, but ugly on the inside, in her core.
So broken that she can not even feel a love that should be as natural as breathing.

Words pierce so much deeper then anything physical ever could.


I am sure that the OP would never say this to her daughter but it seems that is how some people on the forum are interpreting her words. Maybe the daughter is feeling it that way as well.

This could easily come across as "you're not really be one of us as there is something wrong with you."

Be careful with fire, be careful with knives, be care with words too.


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Marms
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04 Sep 2012, 10:16 am

Mike_Garrick wrote:
Ok, then how about this.
Marms wrote:
due to her AS that she lacks empathy, therefore lacks the normal feeling one would have for a savior dying for our sins, which by the way, we all have.

Your daughter has enough problems in life without her own parents telling her she is an ugly person even in the eyes of her parents and god.
Enforcing that she is not only physically ugly, but ugly on the inside, in her core.
So broken that she can not even feel a love that should be as natural as breathing.

Words pierce so much deeper then anything physical ever could.


You are obviously a very ignorant and hate filled person. No one has ever told my daughter she was ugly. She is very much loved more than anything you could ever imagine. I certainly don't need help with my belief or my faith in Almighty God. I was hoping someone who could understand would reply but so far I'm only being judged and bombarded with reasons why my faith is wrong. some of you should learn that if you can't help, it's better to just keep you mouth shut. This forum stinks!



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04 Sep 2012, 10:33 am

Marms, just to re-iterate...

You may have to reach your daughter through her abilities of observation and reasoning. This means you'll have to be on your best behavior 24/7. Any and all other Christians she comes in contact with will also have to comply with this idea.

The emotional experience of being "Born-Again in the Spirit" never happened to me, so I've had to rely upon my own senses to determine what is 'right' Christian behavior. I'm in my mid-fifties, and still haven't made that determination. There are too many different opinions of what "Love your neighbor" means for me to get a consistent point of view on this most basic of Christian doctrines.

Lack of empathy? Perhaps. I do care about people, though; I just don't get caught up in the emotions of the moment.

-F-


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04 Sep 2012, 10:36 am

(Thread locked because OP deleted her opening post)