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fidelis
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30 Mar 2010, 8:00 pm

Everyone who can be brainwashed is. Everyone else is on this website arguing that they have the perfect political system. :D

Seriously though, I do think that a lot of people get their opinions from advertising alone. Another large bunch get it from education systems. The other 10%(random number) form their own opinions and argue with the other people within that 10% so nothing can ever get done. As to how they that 10% gets their opinion, your guess is probably better than mine, but I'll try anyway. They see a bunch of systems, weigh it with what they have been told about them, compare it with reality, see how it would benefit them, see how it would benefit the ones the care for, see how it would benefit everyone else, think about the worst case scenario, and finally say yes or no. If it was purely rational I am positive we would all agree, so it is biased from person to person. On the bright side we aren't walking political zombies.


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leejosepho
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30 Mar 2010, 9:22 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
... you've yet to determine how or why people have those beliefs.

leejosepho wrote:
The "how" is simply because we are capable of having them,

Master_Pedant wrote:
That's a tautological non-explanation.


I was going on the assumption we all understand we each have the ability to think, but maybe you are asking how it is we can do that? If so, I would avoid speculation there and simply suggest a common awareness of our ability to think as a reasonable starting point.

Master_Pedant wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
and the "why" is because we have instincts and desires to be met and satisfied.

Master_Pedant wrote:
Getting there, but still a bit too generic.


While having an ability to think and finding it impossible to not do so, and while having at least some instincts and desires in need of being met and satisfied from outside of oneself, we form or embrace beliefs (and take action) as required to alleviate our fears of not having those instincts and desires met and satisfied.

So again: The "how" is present because of simple ability, and the "why" is driven by inherent needs and desires.

As poorly as I might do in this kind of discussion, I nevertheless participate because I am inherently able to think at least a bit and because I believe doing so (participating) might at least be somewhat beneficial to someone ... and that belief has now been proved true by my finding it necessary to go find and learn the meaning of "tautological".

But if you yet find my words lacking, I will, and for those same reasons, to keep trying to add at least something here.


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Master_Pedant
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30 Mar 2010, 10:01 pm

leejosepho wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
... you've yet to determine how or why people have those beliefs.

leejosepho wrote:
The "how" is simply because we are capable of having them,

Master_Pedant wrote:
That's a tautological non-explanation.


I was going on the assumption we all understand we each have the ability to think, but maybe you are asking how it is we can do that? If so, I would avoid speculation there and simply suggest a common awareness of our ability to think as a reasonable starting point.

Master_Pedant wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
and the "why" is because we have instincts and desires to be met and satisfied.

Master_Pedant wrote:
Getting there, but still a bit too generic.


While having an ability to think and finding it impossible to not do so, and while having at least some instincts and desires in need of being met and satisfied from outside of oneself, we form or embrace beliefs (and take action) as required to alleviate our fears of not having those instincts and desires met and satisfied.

So again: The "how" is present because of simple ability, and the "why" is driven by inherent needs and desires.

As poorly as I might do in this kind of discussion, I nevertheless participate because I am inherently able to think at least a bit and because I believe doing so (participating) might at least be somewhat beneficial to someone ... and that belief has now been proved true by my finding it necessary to go find and learn the meaning of "tautological".

But if you yet find my words lacking, I will, and for those same reasons, to keep trying to add at least something here.


Oh my figurative god, you're not a Cartesian dualist or New Mysterian, are you?



Master_Pedant
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30 Mar 2010, 11:53 pm

Orwell wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
I do find the notion that far-leftists and far-rightists tend to have higher IQ's than centrists interesting. IQ isn't rationality, but centrism has always seemed to me to be a horribly cliche position many take just because they believe that the "golden mean" is an absolute.

People with higher IQ are probably more likely to question received belief, and thus to examine fringe ideologies. Of course, the fact that IQ does not correlate with rationality means that profoundly absurd fringe views do sometimes take root in very intelligent people.

To me, one of the strongest arguments for centrism is that it avoids alienating too much of the population and causing civil strife, the way more extreme ideologies would. In this case the golden mean is sometimes a good idea just to avoid pissing people off too badly.


I've just found out that somebody (Albert Breton, to be specific) has published a book arguing that extremism and rationality may be compatible (at least "rationality" in an economistic sense).

http://www.amazon.com/Political-Extremi ... 0521804418



leejosepho
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31 Mar 2010, 6:13 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
Oh my figurative god, you're not a Cartesian dualist or New Mysterian, are you?


I have never heard of either, and I sense no instinct or desire to find out what those are!


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Awesomelyglorious
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31 Mar 2010, 12:04 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Oh my figurative god, you're not a Cartesian dualist or New Mysterian, are you?

Most people are. Many are Cartesian dualists. The ones who aren't tend to be New Mysterian.



Master_Pedant
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31 Mar 2010, 12:23 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
Oh my figurative god, you're not a Cartesian dualist or New Mysterian, are you?

Most people are. Many are Cartesian dualists. The ones who aren't tend to be New Mysterian.


I suppose I'm quite heterodox, then. I've fully internalized physicalist thinking (well, at least Cartesian materialism) since I was in the 7th Grade and commonly think of my thinking in terms of mental films of neurons firing and reconnecting.



Awesomelyglorious
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31 Mar 2010, 1:40 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
I suppose I'm quite heterodox, then. I've fully internalized physicalist thinking (well, at least Cartesian materialism) since I was in the 7th Grade and commonly think of my thinking in terms of mental films of neurons firing and reconnecting.

Well, obviously. Only eliminative materialists reduce mind so much.



codarac
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07 Apr 2010, 4:56 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
I do find the notion that far-leftists and far-rightists tend to have higher IQ's than centrists interesting. IQ isn't rationality, but centrism has always seemed to me to be a horribly cliche position many take just because they believe that the "golden mean" is an absolute.

People with higher IQ are probably more likely to question received belief, and thus to examine fringe ideologies. Of course, the fact that IQ does not correlate with rationality means that profoundly absurd fringe views do sometimes take root in very intelligent people.

To me, one of the strongest arguments for centrism is that it avoids alienating too much of the population and causing civil strife, the way more extreme ideologies would. In this case the golden mean is sometimes a good idea just to avoid pissing people off too badly.


I've just found out that somebody (Albert Breton, to be specific) has published a book arguing that extremism and rationality may be compatible (at least "rationality" in an economistic sense).

http://www.amazon.com/Political-Extremi ... 0521804418


What is considered mainstream and what is considered extreme varies according to time and place. Views that were considered mainstream in one place just 50 years ago might be considered extreme in that place in the 21st century, and views that are considered mainstream in that place in the 21st century might have been considered extreme in that place just 50 years ago.
Of course, it is more comforting to adopt the mainstream views of one's contemporaries, because it's more comforting to believe one's society is generally progressing towards a higher state of enlightenment than it is to believe it is heading in the opposite direction.