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iamnotaparakeet
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05 Apr 2011, 8:47 am

Here are some verses to discuss:

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
(Exodus 20:16)

Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
(Leviticus 19:16)

Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
(Exodus 23:1)

He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.
(Proverbs 10:18 )

Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.
(Psalms 101:5)

He that goeth about as a talebearer revealeth secrets: therefore meddle not with him that flattereth with his lips.
(Proverbs 20:19)

The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.
(Proverbs 18:8 )

A froward man soweth strife: and a whisperer separateth chief friends.
(Proverbs 16:28 )

These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
(Proverbs 6:16-19)

If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong; Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you. And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
(Deuteronomy 19:16-21)

Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
(Exodus 23:7)



ruveyn
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05 Apr 2011, 8:55 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Here are some verses to discuss:

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
(Exodus 20:16)

Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
(Leviticus 19:16)

Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
(Exodus 23:1)

He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.
(Proverbs 10:18 )

Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.
(Psalms 101:5)

He that goeth about as a talebearer revealeth secrets: therefore meddle not with him that flattereth with his lips.
(Proverbs 20:19)

The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.
(Proverbs 18:8 )

A froward man soweth strife: and a whisperer separateth chief friends.
(Proverbs 16:28 )

These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
(Proverbs 6:16-19)

If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong; Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you. And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
(Deuteronomy 19:16-21)

Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
(Exodus 23:7)


Perjurers, gossipers and slanderers are in Deep Doo Doo. Unfortunately the constitute a majority of the human race.

ruveyn



cdfox7
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05 Apr 2011, 9:51 am

Speaking from personal experience as a lapsed Mormon, (LDS is a better way to label the faith as some Latter-day Saints take offence to the label Mormon) the faith believes in refraining from gossip & its like. However only speaking from experience of my local LDS community the practice is far from the believe. With the group dynamics of LDS communities gossip can create major relationship issues.



leejosepho
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05 Apr 2011, 10:14 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPCLB-XC4p8[/youtube]


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ZeroGravitas
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05 Apr 2011, 10:28 am

You may be interested in the concept of Lashon Hara and the rules about it codified by Chofetz Chaim.

http://www.torah.org/learning/halashon/intrcomm.html


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ruveyn
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05 Apr 2011, 10:39 am

ZeroGravitas wrote:
You may be interested in the concept of Lashon Hara and the rules about it codified by Chofetz Chaim.

http://www.torah.org/learning/halashon/intrcomm.html


The Chofetyz Chaim (z'chur l'brachah) considered bad mouthing worse than murder.

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ZeroGravitas
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05 Apr 2011, 10:55 am

He had somewhat of a point. How often does one commit murder?

You can go your entire life without ever killing more than a dozen people. Yet going for a full day, let alone a week, without spreading gossip and slander and negative speech, is nearly impossible.

There is a joke that anyone who can go a month without speaking Lashon Hora, gets to see the prophet Ezekial. No one has, though, because no one made it that far.

There's also another joke: a man made a huge bet with his rabbi that he could go a month without speaking lashon hora. After making it, he rendered himself mute by damaging his throat. A month went by, and he came back to collect his reward.

The rabbi pointed to a horse. "Look at this horse. He hasn't spoken lashon hara in the last month either. In fact, he's never once said lashon hara. There is a difference between choosing not to speak lashon hara, when one may, and not being able to speak lashon hara. All you've done is prove that you are at least as moral as a horse."

ETA:

Another part of his argument would be that when one commits murder, one usually knows exactly who one has killed. Imagine now if you could trace the results of every lie you have ever spoken, every rumor you have spread, every ambiguous insult you spoke. Who knows if you have ruined a man's reputation, destroyed his family, or caused him to kill another man? Speaking lashon hara can produce, in a very subtle way, much more suffering than a single slit throat. And because its effects are more diffuse, almost continuous with all social interaction, and often far removed, one should be more aware of it.


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iamnotaparakeet
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05 Apr 2011, 5:08 pm

Although the inadvertent day to day slander (as per the joke about going for a month without doing so) might lead to or be a part of the cause of the wrongful actions of many people, I would think that that would be a lesser form of slander than that which is referred to in "do not bear false witness". Intentionally slandering others with the purpose to harm them physically or affect them in an otherwise malicious manner directly (or more so than, say, an off hand comment about a politician) would, I think, be more in line with directly violating these commandments. I would not necessarily consider it equivalent to murder, but when people slander others with the intent to destroy their friendships, their reputation, their ability to be employed, such is certainly no laughing matter. When employers fire employees for reasons which are bogus and blacklist them, or cause them to be blacklisted, I would consider such to also be a form of slander - but not equivalent or equal to murder (unless it eventually led to the death of the person due to being unable to support themselves.)



ZeroGravitas
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05 Apr 2011, 6:56 pm

It is important to remember that the laws of lashon hara apply especially to statements which are true, but negative. For someone like the Chofetz Chaim, one could not be assured of avoiding conflict even if one spoke only truth. True but negative statements are in the laws of lashon hara, considered just as much something to be avoided as malicious falsehoods.

It's a very interesting view, as it tells me that one who adheres to the Chofetz Chaim can much less easily distort the meaning of the rules by which they behave.

Consider how many people envelop a statement such as "I don't mean to be rude, but ___. It's true! I swear to God!" or excuse themselves by saying "I can't help it, he really does ____."

They have obviously interpreted the biblical rules as having an exception for statements which are true but harmful. Someone avoiding lashon hara could not make such an exception.


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ThatRedHairedGrrl
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07 Apr 2011, 12:38 pm

I wish all those Christians who go round saying pagans abuse children and kill pets would remember this stuff once in a while. :roll:


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