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CrazyCatLord
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24 Feb 2012, 4:02 pm

NarcissusSavage wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
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He can't know what it's like to be human, because he can always snap his fingers and become a deity again. He can't understand the doubt and the fear of the future, because he knows what's going to happen. He won't ever worry that he's doing the wrong thing. He can't ever have that nagging doubt that many humans have when praying that no-one is listening.


Actually, in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus was pretty scared of what he knew was coming. In fact, he prayed so hard that he was supposed to have sweated blood when he prayed to "take this cup from me." Sounds pretty human to me.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I always thought it was peculiar Jesus would even pray. Who exactly was he praying to?? He is god, after all (Right?), did he really find it necessary to pray to commune with himself or something? This sounds remarkably schizo. Someone enlighten me?


This question has triggered church schisms and caused countless excommunications and blasphemy trials over the centuries :) You will get very different answers depending on whom you ask, and none of these answers make any rational sense to me.



simon_says
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24 Feb 2012, 4:05 pm

It's the trinity. It's mystical stuff. It's not supposed to make sense. In fact the less sense it makes the more attractive and mysterious it seems to them.



heavenlyabyss
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25 Feb 2012, 8:05 am

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
DEdwards wrote:
WilliamWDelaney wrote:
DEdwards wrote:
just all those years of hellfire being burned into my mind, even as a child, they'd threaten with damnation for something as small as claiming I didn't wash my hands before dinner.
It sounds like you had a good upbringing, then.

The "Hell" you were taught about is a Pagan concept, and it's not found anywhere in the Bible. The Hell referred to in Mark refers to "worms that never die," in one wording or another, depending on your version. That's all they mean: worms. They aren't trying to use some code-word for "soul," but they're talking about something that eats your body. They mean that you're dead forever.

Satan is a servant of God who challenges and tests the moral righteousness of individuals. You will find that in Job. This old concept that he's a "rebellious angel" or some other nonsense is rubbish and horse feathers. If you ignore all of the Pagan nonsense out there, Satan is just someone sent by God to point out if you are being an arrogant ninny.

The New Testament is pretty clear on "eternal life." Only the followers of Jesus are resurrected, and that is the end of it. That is final. That is self-evident if you read the Bible, without trying to superimpose onto it a lot of Pagan nonsense.

Everything that you have been taught is Pagan. Christianity has never been the dominant religion in the West. It never will be. The old faith, Paganism, lives on, just under different pretenses. You are a Pagan, and you were raised on Pagan values. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but it ain't Christianity if you consider Christianity to have anything to do with Christ from the Bible.

Now, read your Bible, and read it with a sense of scholarship this time. Don't miss a single page, and please, for the sake of my sanity, don't try to superimpose your Pagan beliefs on scripture that is translated into reasonably plain English. If you can make it through our secondary education system, you can read the Bible. It's the same method of scholarship our country has lovingly tried to instill in you since you were in Kindergarten.

Why? Why does it take an atheist to realize what is plainly obvious?


Pagan? Who said anything about paganism? Pagans are polytheistic and the Christians did usurp many Pagan traditions to better incorporate them into the Christian collective.
Fine, be bloody-minded. I imagine the only text out of the Bible you've read is the bloody Book of Revelation, which most intelligent people, who believe in most of the Bible, regard as apocryphal nonsense at best, useless drivel more than likely. It appeals to you because it reads like pulp fantasy and doesn't require any discipline to read or understand. It provides you with romantic action scenes and colorful monstrosities.

Are you aware of how much time and effort it requires to get through the Book of Numbers and have the slightest idea of what they were talking about or to get a glimmering of why the book was written? You probably don't. It was written for very good reasons, and it was considered an essential part of Jewish law for good reasons.

Oh, but don't listen to me. I'm just the local atheist. What the hell do I know? All I do is sit around reading books all day.

And, for that matter, the very concept of eschatology is borne of Mazda worship. Although worshipers of Ahura Mazda were often on good terms with the people of Israel, their gods were not even distant cousins. Everything you think you know about Hell comes from an old Persian religion, and it's one that still happens to exist. We call it "Zoroastrianism."

It is likely that the popularity of the Book of Revelation with Christians has something to do with the fact that Manichaeanism, which contains several elements of Zoroastrianism, was one of the chief rivals of Christianity at one time. The Manichaean religion, which contains more outright nonsense than Christians could think of inventing, could very well have become the dominant religion in Europe, and I gasp to think what those nutjobs would have done if they had assumed power.

Hell, if you took the Christians out of our history, I can assure you that there was a whole host of far worse fanatics and holy rollers out there, just salivating to have risen in their place. Let's just be thankful that the early church fathers at least tried to create an atmosphere of nurturing and learning, such as Saint Augustine for example.

For that matter, if you really have an interest in Christianity, you ought to read the many writings by individuals such as St. Augustine. There are centuries of ideas and rhetoric over the very subjects that you are presently wrought over, and I can assure you that you wouldn't be bored within your lifetime if you were to take a scholarly approach to learning about it all. It's very interesting, really, though I prefer my dry scientific writings.

Anyway, you can consider becoming a more enlightened Christian, or you can consider becoming an enlightened atheist. However, if you are not interested in becoming enlightened, I ask that you remain a "Christian," or whatever the hell you are, please, so you won't taint the atheist population any further than it already has been. Atheists are getting more dismally illiterate every day, thanks to that idiot, Dawkins, where you once could have counted on an atheist at least to be interesting.


I'm having trouble figuring you out. Are you an Atheist, religious, or neither?

For the record, I agree with you about Dawkins. I don't necessarily disagree with his ideas but his mentality is what bugs me. His followers unnerve me as well. I find the similarities to a false prophet to be unsettling. I can't blame his followers of course since naturally they want to be a part of a movement, and as a minority group, they are entitled to do so. But again the similarities to fundamentalism (ie the compulsion to convert) unsettles me slightly. As for helping people who are damaged from religion, that is fine, but he seems to feel he is superior to others just because he acknowledges what is so obvious.

I would make a highly controversial book myself if I knew I could bring in the money. I don't think his ideas are terribly original but I can't say he is wrong either. Like you say, pointing out the obvious doesn't take a genius.



WilliamWDelaney
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25 Feb 2012, 9:24 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:
I'm having trouble figuring you out. Are you an Atheist, religious, or neither?
I am interesting.

Quote:
For the record, I agree with you about Dawkins. I don't necessarily disagree with his ideas but his mentality is what bugs me. His followers unnerve me as well. I find the similarities to a false prophet to be unsettling. I can't blame his followers of course since naturally they want to be a part of a movement, and as a minority group, they are entitled to do so. But again the similarities to fundamentalism (ie the compulsion to convert) unsettles me slightly. As for helping people who are damaged from religion, that is fine, but he seems to feel he is superior to others just because he acknowledges what is so obvious.

I would make a highly controversial book myself if I knew I could bring in the money. I don't think his ideas are terribly original but I can't say he is wrong either. Like you say, pointing out the obvious doesn't take a genius.
It's like fingernails on a chalkboard, his whole tone.