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shrox
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22 Feb 2012, 7:04 pm

Thom_Fuleri wrote:
...It's something you give yourself.


Yes. You might die because of your choice, but it's yours to make.



MCalavera
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22 Feb 2012, 7:04 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
DEdwards wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen, you've just witnessed the birth of an atheist.

Just spend half the day watching Carl Sagan and stuff about critical thinking and this guy named Richard Hawkins on YouTube. Very enlightening.


Congrats. You're now a free man.

Now's the time to really practice your critical skills even when it comes to secular material. Never believe every word you read. Always cross and double check.

For example, some atheists might blindly believe the Jesus sun god theory without bothering to check for the evidence, but it doesn't mean they're right. Don't fall into such traps as a newly-born atheist.


If DEdwards is happy, then I'm happy for him. I have to think though, had he been raised in some other tradition than the fundies or holy rollers with their emphasis on the terror of hell, he might not have ever had this struggle with his faith.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


It's called faith. With faith comes doubt. If you yourself have ever doubted, then I dare say you've struggled with the faith you have and are only holding on to it because of how it makes you feel and not due to critical reasoning.

Some people are just happy being Christians, fundies or not. Some aren't and end up leaving. That's just the way it goes.



goodwitchy
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22 Feb 2012, 8:18 pm

MCalavera wrote:
goodwitchy wrote:
I will not attempt to convert atheists, and I don't think atheists should try to convert theists.


People have the right to convince others of something that's clearly true.

If Christianity is clearly rubbish to me and others, I owe it to myself to let Christians know how much rubbish it is whether they wish to be convinced or not.


Okay; you're entitled to your opinion as well 8)

There are people who will be open to new ideas and others who are quite happy with their current beliefs.
I don't think ANY belief system should be forced on ANYONE, but I have no problem with the sharing of ideas as long as both parties are freely listening and exchanging their thoughts.

(translation: you will not convert me to an atheist)



DEdwards
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22 Feb 2012, 9:03 pm

Hopefully I can with someone. It's like bullying; it gets better.



LKL
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22 Feb 2012, 10:02 pm

@ The OP, there are two emotions that generally accompany newfound atheism: first, the feeling of a burden being lifted from your shoulders and a wide world of possibility opening up before you, partly due to a lessening of the limitations of whichever faith you gave up and partly because you no longer have to waste the time and energy trying to justify an illogical world view. Second, many people feel somewhat adrift in their freedom, having 'lost' a parent figure that they could take hope from, a cosmic purpose to believe in, and the false promise of life after death.



AceOfSpades
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22 Feb 2012, 10:23 pm

LKL wrote:
@ The OP, there are two emotions that generally accompany newfound atheism: first, the feeling of a burden being lifted from your shoulders and a wide world of possibility opening up before you, partly due to a lessening of the limitations of whichever faith you gave up and partly because you no longer have to waste the time and energy trying to justify an illogical world view. Second, many people feel somewhat adrift in their freedom, having 'lost' a parent figure that they could take hope from, a cosmic purpose to believe in, and the false promise of life after death.
True. I went through the latter before going through the former though. It is definitely a feeling of possibilities opening up, but the uncertainty that comes with that can also be scary. It's never easy letting go of something that has been deeply ingrained in you since childhood.



MCalavera
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22 Feb 2012, 10:51 pm

goodwitchy wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
goodwitchy wrote:
I will not attempt to convert atheists, and I don't think atheists should try to convert theists.


People have the right to convince others of something that's clearly true.

If Christianity is clearly rubbish to me and others, I owe it to myself to let Christians know how much rubbish it is whether they wish to be convinced or not.


Okay; you're entitled to your opinion as well 8)

There are people who will be open to new ideas and others who are quite happy with their current beliefs.
I don't think ANY belief system should be forced on ANYONE, but I have no problem with the sharing of ideas as long as both parties are freely listening and exchanging their thoughts.

(translation: you will not convert me to an atheist)


I'm not an atheist myself. More of an agnostic.

But I find it absurd to treat religious views on the same level as educating scientific views.



goodwitchy
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22 Feb 2012, 10:55 pm

MCalavera wrote:
goodwitchy wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
goodwitchy wrote:
I will not attempt to convert atheists, and I don't think atheists should try to convert theists.


People have the right to convince others of something that's clearly true.

If Christianity is clearly rubbish to me and others, I owe it to myself to let Christians know how much rubbish it is whether they wish to be convinced or not.


Okay; you're entitled to your opinion as well 8)

There are people who will be open to new ideas and others who are quite happy with their current beliefs.
I don't think ANY belief system should be forced on ANYONE, but I have no problem with the sharing of ideas as long as both parties are freely listening and exchanging their thoughts.

(translation: you will not convert me to an atheist)


I'm not an atheist myself. More of an agnostic.

But I find it absurd to treat religious views on the same level as educating scientific views.

I was only referring to science that is unproven. In my opinion, that's not too much of a stretch....
but then again, I don't take the Bible literally.



Oodain
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22 Feb 2012, 11:01 pm

what fo you mean by unproven?


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goodwitchy
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22 Feb 2012, 11:19 pm

Oodain wrote:
what fo you mean by unproven?


hypothesis



Fnord
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22 Feb 2012, 11:23 pm

Hypotheses are provable ideas. Theories are proven hypotheses.



Declension
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22 Feb 2012, 11:27 pm

goodwitchy wrote:
science that is unproven


Saying that you will only accept proven science is like saying that you will only accept green emotions. The word doesn't apply.



goodwitchy
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22 Feb 2012, 11:30 pm

Fnord wrote:
Hypotheses are provable ideas. Theories are proven hypotheses.


But I thought hypotheses are not proven as hypotheses; only provable once they are theories :?:



goodwitchy
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22 Feb 2012, 11:33 pm

Declension wrote:
goodwitchy wrote:
science that is unproven


Saying that you will only accept proven science is like saying that you will only accept green emotions. The word doesn't apply.


Okay, terminology is tricky.... before a hypothesis is made, initial thought exists that can lead to a belief.



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22 Feb 2012, 11:34 pm

Science is merely an extremely powerful method of winnowing what's true from what feels good. That is, supporting evidence must be validated before a claim can be accepted as a fact. Therefor, and unproven claim can not be accepted as a fact, and the claim itself is in doubt.

a. Absence of proof, while not proof of absence, is sufficient cause for reasonable doubt.
b. Faith is the belief in unprovable claims.
: : It is reasonable to doubt any and all faith-based claims.



Oodain
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22 Feb 2012, 11:34 pm

goodwitchy wrote:
Declension wrote:
goodwitchy wrote:
science that is unproven


Saying that you will only accept proven science is like saying that you will only accept green emotions. The word doesn't apply.


Okay, terminology is tricky.... before a hypothesis is made, initial thought exists that can lead to a belief.


no it leaves to a testable hypothesis, not belief.

its the test that decides if it is believable, not to be confused with faith.


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