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NarcissusSavage
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21 Mar 2012, 1:52 am

hyperlexian wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Tequila wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
doesn't matter because people do it anyways.


There's a difference between something going on in a culture and it not being officially approved of and is stamped out wherever possible and the kind of women-hating dogma in place in places like, ooh, Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.

the rates of violence are the same, so there is no difference in the result. with or without religious sanction there is suffering.


You really don't think the religious sanction makes it worse?

I guess I know it's worse from having grown up religious.

i'd say it's.... different. if religion or a government were sheltering (or somehow responsible for) violence and sexual assault against women, then we should logically see much lower rates of it outside those protected areas. but we don't. so there is something else distinct from the religion that is causing the problems to happen. that is scary to me, because it's so.... amorphous. don't know what to pin it on.

for some reason it's so newsworthy when we hear about atrocities that are happening elsewhere, yet some of the same atrocities happen in our own backyards with no comment.


You are very mistaken on this point.

If an act is sanctioned by the society you live in, it will NOT be reported as a crime in the first place. You cannot use women crime statistics to demonstrate less violence to women, because in these countries being discussed, violence to women is often not a crime. Even if you go door to door and have a private chat with large swaths of dominated women, they will not report being abused, because 1) They are taught by their society that they are not being abused, and 2) They are afraid of the chances of reprisal from their domestic partners, and here is the big nasty kicker 3) to discuss this type of behavior is to dishonor their family and that could very well be considered a crime, which would get them beaten or killed. Because much of the outrageous violence against these women is being done BY the society, as punishment for essentially being female.

Would you have a problem with the punishment for being raped, yes, BEING raped was to be stoned to death? How would you take it if your country adopted the laws and government framework to begin prosecuting and executing women who get raped by stoning them to death? And how would you think of the situation if the political motivations that caused this change came from a religion that held power in your country? Would you be even the slightest bit upset with the religion??

We all can acknowledge that women’s rights have come a long way in some countries, and need to go even further in most. But when such blatant and egregious crimes against women are consistently perpetrated and endorsed by a religion, at some point, you really must stop and contemplate if that religion may just be a bit responsible…and just maybe it might be ok to criticize the views that religion is taking on the welfare of those under its control. Just maybe you think you can do that?

And all this talk about just the abuse side of the coin doesn’t even begin to do a discussion of women’s rights justice. Women deserve FAR more than just to not be tossed around. Islamic countries make it government policy to suppress the rights of women, the culture supports the idea that women are to be submissive to men, they do not have liberty, they do not make many of their own life choices. These issues are paramount! Why are you being intentionally blind to how hurtful the Islamic dogma is to the welfare of women all across the world?


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Last edited by NarcissusSavage on 21 Mar 2012, 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

hyperlexian
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21 Mar 2012, 1:53 am

so.... 24% of women in the UK have suffered violence from their partner in some way (not just sexually, but in other ways as well). that is frighteningly high. do you think that it is not a cause for concern?


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NarcissusSavage
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21 Mar 2012, 2:01 am

hyperlexian wrote:
so.... 24% of women in the UK have suffered violence from their partner in some way (not just sexually, but in other ways as well). that is frighteningly high. do you think that it is not a cause for concern?


It is, but not related to the discussion about Islam issues. Women suffering from violence is an important discussion. Violence in general is even more important (because it includes the previous). General human sh***y behavior is an even more important discussion (because it includes all of the sh***y crap people do). But I think the specific issue people are taking with your contribution to this thread is that you don't seem to like the idea that a religion can in fact contribute to overall human shittyness. And it's pretty obvious to anyone who looks that indeed it can...

What you are really doing is asking a question unrelated to the topic, to stop a conversation you don't like, the quintessential Red Herring.


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hyperlexian
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21 Mar 2012, 2:04 am

meh, no point. if you don't get it, you don't get it.


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Last edited by hyperlexian on 21 Mar 2012, 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

hyperlexian
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21 Mar 2012, 2:08 am

NarcissusSavage wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
so.... 24% of women in the UK have suffered violence from their partner in some way (not just sexually, but in other ways as well). that is frighteningly high. do you think that it is not a cause for concern?


It is, but not related to the discussion about Islam issues. Women suffering from violence is an important discussion. Violence in general is even more important (because it includes the previous). General human sh***y behavior is an even more important discussion (because it includes all of the sh***y crap people do). But I think the specific issue people are taking with your contribution to this thread is that you don't seem to like the idea that a religion can in fact contribute to overall human shittyness. And it's pretty obvious to anyone who looks that indeed it can...

What you are really doing is asking a question unrelated to the topic, to stop a conversation you don't like, the quintessential Red Herring.

if women in islam are going to be held up as examples of mistreatment, then the discussion will be empty and flawed if you are not aware of the conditions in other societies. so much handwringing about THEM when there are problems with US.

no, it isn't a red herring because it relates directly to the OP.


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DC
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21 Mar 2012, 2:44 am

hyperlexian wrote:
so.... 24% of women in the UK have suffered violence from their partner in some way (not just sexually, but in other ways as well). that is frighteningly high. do you think that it is not a cause for concern?


Are you really this thick or are you just winding me up?

Please go and read the definition of 'partner abuse' that I so kindly posted for you.
It includes lots of non violent things.
When you look at the figures for 'sexual violence' the numbers drop to 3%.

Or are you still going to argue this point?

Anyway, why are British women so important to you, shouldn't you be more concerned with what is going on at home before daring to pass comment on other people's cultures? After all that is what you recommend we do, or does this advice not apply to you?

Personally I find stuff like this quite disgusting:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ouths.html

90-100 teenagers killed in Iraq because they have 'emo' hair, the favoured method of killing them is by abducting them and then smashing their head in between two concrete blocks.

Apparently this all started when Iraq's moral police issued a statement claiming that people with strange hairstyles were engaged in devil worship.

That would be the truth about Islam.


or how about this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... esson.html

A muslim man found guilty of seven counts of rape because he wanted to teach white women a lesson.

Not to mention the multiple trials of groups of muslim men that have been abducting and raping white children.

Of course it is none of my business that British muslim men in Britain are murdering their own wives and children for 'honour' and it is none of my business that muslim men are deliberately targeting and raping white British women and children British.

Of course it doesn't count as racist if a muslim rapes and murders a woman because she is white, it only counts as racism if white people do it.



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21 Mar 2012, 2:55 am

In the last year almost 100,000 christians have fled Egypt because of persecution by muslims.

Perhaps Hyperlexian you can show me where in the world muslims are treated like this by christians?

Can you name country after country where a christian majority is burning down mosques, killing muslims, raping muslims and forcing a mass exodus of it's muslim population?

http://www.christiannewstoday.com/Chris ... 00171.html

This is the truth about Islam.

You can see similar things happening all over the muslim world.



donnie_darko
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21 Mar 2012, 3:06 am

Islam is just what Christianity was 600 years ago. Which makes sense when you consider it's 600 years younger than Christianity.



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21 Mar 2012, 3:12 am

http://www.amnesty.org/en/womens-rights

Oh look, that well known facist mouthpiece, Amnesty International has a 'womens-rights' page.

Lets take a look, I'm sure there will be lots of stories about appalling conditions in Britain and Canada.

Oh.

No there isn't.

Story one - Syria
Story two - Syria
Story three - Saudi Arabia
Story four - Yemen
Story five - Iran

Wait a minute, they wouldn't all be Islamic countries would they?

Who the hell do these Amnesty International people think they are?! These racists should look more closely to home at the horrors in their own countries.



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21 Mar 2012, 3:33 am

Lets take a look at another fascist pressure group, the Human Rights Watch. Surely they must have lots of nice things to say about Islam right?

http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/ ... wcover.pdf

Oh look Hyperlexian, it is the human rights watch report about women in Afghanistan in 2010, this should make interesting reading shouldn't it? I'm sure that these women enjoy better lives than the poor oppressed Canadian women.

Lets look at page eight shall we, death threat letters against women for daring to work.

you are working with the government. We Taliban warn you to stop working for the government
otherwise we will take your life away. We will kill you in such a harsh way that no woman has so far been
killed in that manner. This will be a good lesson for those women like you who are working. The money you
receive is haram (forbidden under Islam) and coming from the infidels. The choice is now with you.

---------------------

We warn you today on behalf of the Servants of Islam to stop working with infidels. We always know
when you are working. If you continue, you will be regarded as enemy of Islam and will be killed.
As we have killed Hossai yesterday whose name was in our list, your name and other women’s
names are also on our list.

---------------------

you are working with a foreign organization which is the enemy of religion and Islam. You
receive a salary from them. You should be fearful of God. Every day, you shake hands with strangers without
covering your face. We, herewith, inform you to stop doing this otherwise we will take such action against you
that a Muslim has not yet done to another Muslim.

---------------------

We would like to inform you [name removed] that you work with [place of work removed], the enemies of
religion and infidels. You should leave your job otherwise we will cut your head off your body. You will have no
right to complain then.

--------------------

You [name removed] teaching at [name removed] School which is a girl’s school. You should be afraid of God.
We warn you to leave your job as a teacher as soon as possible otherwise we will cut the heads off your children
and will set light to your daughter. We will create a situation that you will regret.
This is the first and last warning.

--------------------

you are working with [place of work removed]. You are warned by Taliban to stop working with
them otherwise the Taliban’s court shall make a decision about you which will have severe consequences for
you and your family. You will lose your life.

--------------------



It does seem like the people writing these letters are awfully obsessed with one religion in particular doesn't it?



DC
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21 Mar 2012, 4:06 am

You seem to be right Hyperlexian, British and Canadian women do have it so much worse, it is strange though that so many Islamic countries seem to keep coming up on international human rights reports, I guess it is because they are all racist. Or perhaps it is because places like Britain and Canada are so unstable that human rights organisations can't operate there?

http://www.globalrights.org/site/DocSer ... docID=9803

Quote:
The findings of this research are alarming: an overwhelming majority of women, 87.2%, experienced at
least one form of physical, sexual or psychological violence or forced marriage, and most, 62.0%,
experienced multiple forms of violence. Overall, 17.2% of women reported sexual violence, with 11.2%
experiencing rape. Furthermore, 52.4 % of women reported physical violence, with 39.3% saying they
had been hit by their husband in the last year. Women who experienced psychological abuse totaled
73.9%, while 58.8% of women were in forced marriages, as distinct from arranged marriages. There were
broad variations between provinces with 100% of Kochi women living in Kabul reporting at least one
form of physical, sexual or psychological violence; 42.6% of women in Kandahar experiencing sexual
violence; and 91.6% of women in Khost experiencing forced marriages.



It is so nice to know that as a dedicated feminist you don't give a s**t about hundreds of millions women suffering horrendous abuse across the world, after all they don't really count as women do they, I mean it's not like they are white women?

Anything to say Hyperlexian?

Still want to argue that Britain and Canada treat women just as poorly?



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21 Mar 2012, 4:14 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 19920.html


Rickets is coming back to Britain because certain women spend their lives entirely covered head to foot.

I'm sure the article must be referring to those white whores in mini skirts that like to spend their summers sun bathing.

It couldn't possibly mean muslim women could it?

But then it's non of my business what goes on in my country is it Hyperlexian?



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21 Mar 2012, 4:14 am

DC wrote:

It is so nice to know that as a dedicated feminist you don't give a sh** about hundreds of millions women suffering horrendous abuse across the world, after all they don't really count as women do they, I mean it's not like they are white women?


That's going too far and you know it.


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DC
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21 Mar 2012, 4:37 am

puddingmouse wrote:
DC wrote:

It is so nice to know that as a dedicated feminist you don't give a sh** about hundreds of millions women suffering horrendous abuse across the world, after all they don't really count as women do they, I mean it's not like they are white women?


That's going too far and you know it.


Nope just making a perfectly valid point.

If Hyperlexian considers herself a strident feminist, why is she so silent about the horrendous abuse of women at the hands of people inspired to carry out that abuse in the name of Islam?

Why does she criticise people that dare criticise Islam when (war & poverty aside) Islam is probably the number one factor behind the oppression of women in the world today?

If nice middle class white Canadian women were being treated in the same way by white men, Hyperlexian would be furious but because they are muslim women it's too culturally sensitive.

It is a totally racist viewpoint that puts rights for white women far above rights for muslim women.

How else would you describe it puddingmouse? Hyperlexian is perfectly happy to wax lyrical about womens rights just so long as nobody mentions Islam. The second Islam comes up Hyperlexian tells us we should not discuss it and be more concerned with issues closer at home.

Seems like she is trying to censor debate about Islam and women's rights and it seems like she is doing so for racist reasons, she just doesn't place the same value on the suffering of a muslim woman as she does on a nice white middle class Canadian woman.



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21 Mar 2012, 4:44 am

^
Her intent is not as you describe. Do you seriously think that she regards non-white women as less important?

All she intended to do was to take part in a debate, not censor other people's opinions on Islam. She has the opinion that violence against women is no more of an issue in Islamic countries than it is in secular or Christian ones. She is, quite frankly, wrong, in my opinion. You have demonstrated this with your counterargument. Well done. No need to call her a racist.

Moreover, she does have a point that vilifying Islam (which I think is honestly justified, but that's another matter) distracts from addressing the matter of sexual violence in non-Islamic nations. No-one is making threads called 'the truth about South American machismo', or 'the truth about African perceptions of male sexuality', or 'the truth about sexual harassment and date rape on Western university campuses'.


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21 Mar 2012, 5:23 am

puddingmouse wrote:
^
Her intent is not as you describe. Do you seriously think that she regards non-white women as less important?

That is for her to answer.

But for the record, I believe she will deny it but her actions of repeatedly shutting down debate about Islam including deleting posts and locking threads would say otherwise.

Quote:
All she intended to do was to take part in a debate, not censor other people's opinions on Islam.


I beg to differ, she is strangely absent on almost all threads about Christianity but always shows up to take a pop at Tequila when the subject of Islam comes up. She has locked threads like this in the past and she has also accused me personally of being racist.

Quote:
She has the opinion that violence against women is no more of an issue in Islamic countries than it is in secular or Christian ones. She is, quite frankly, wrong, in my opinion. You have demonstrated this with your counterargument. Well done. No need to call her a racist.


Actually she accused me of racism in a similar thread 4 months ago, so I'm just returning the favour as she has at least had the decency not to lock this thread so far.

Quote:
Moreover, she does have a point that vilifying Islam (which I think is honestly justified, but that's another matter) distracts from addressing the matter of sexual violence in non-Islamic nations. No-one is making threads called 'the truth about South American machismo', or 'the truth about African perceptions of male sexuality', or 'the truth about sexual harassment and date rape on Western university campuses'.


I think that statement is complete rubbish. There is an entire feminist movement in the west that has been very successful campaigning for women's rights over the last century. They are very active, very vocal and attract large sums of money from governments for their work. By this I mean things money for rape crisis centres etc etc that didn't exist before the feminist movement.

Almost all of the self proclaimed feminists in the west make an active point of not discussing muslim women, ever.

Case in point when the topic happens to come up does Hyperlexian valiantly stand up for the poor oppressed muslim women? nope she says:

hyperlexian wrote:
maybe work on fixing your internal problems before demonising other cultures or religions.


So how exactly is Hyperlexian treating muslim women the same way she treats nice white middle class women, when her behaviour towards discussion of the two groups is so completely different?