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Tequila
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21 Mar 2012, 10:38 am

AngelRho wrote:
It's also a pretty low thing to do in her absence.


Yeah, I agree. I just feel like she has an unfair advantage in the discussion in that she is a mod and I'm on the opposing side during the discussion. I feel as though she is using her position unfairly in this case.



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21 Mar 2012, 10:41 am

Tequila wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
It's also a pretty low thing to do in her absence.
Yeah, I agree. I just feel like she has an unfair advantage in the discussion in that she is a mod and I'm on the opposing side during the discussion.
And yet she specifically stated that she was participating in this thread and not moderating it.


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21 Mar 2012, 10:42 am

Tequila wrote:
Lord_Gareth: where d'you live? If you live in Canada, I can understand my views coming across as a bit intolerant if relations between Muslims and wider society is generally very good there (I haven't spent enough time in Canada to really comment). Individual Muslims are often very much like the rest of us and want no hassle either. It's a very mixed bag here in the UK.


I live pretty close to Detroit, actually, but I've spent a two-year stint in Missouri and Kansas (pro tip: the only good reason to go to Kansas is to relocate its citizens to another nation) and traveled the USA from New York, New York to Los Angeles. Most muslims I've met tend to be law-abiding, literate folks with the same kind of problems and baggage as the rest of us (and I get into the same fraggin' debates about being an atheist with them too), whereas conversely most christians I've met tend to have extreme views about foreign policy, treatment of enemies and prisoners, and civil rights. I feel it's more a consequence of the culture you grow up in than the religion you hold - I mean, look at the general political will of, say, Alabama, and then try to tell me that it wouldn't pretty much be AmeriGhanistan if it was its own independent nation.


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Tequila
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21 Mar 2012, 10:43 am

Lord_Gareth wrote:
Most muslims I've met tend to be law-abiding, literate folks with the same kind of problems and baggage as the rest of us.


Do they wear niqab? Do they demand special treatment like some do here?

Perhaps there is a much greater drive to integrate amongst American Muslims (and a greater sense of 'melting pot'-ness) than there is here.



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21 Mar 2012, 10:46 am

Lord_Gareth wrote:
Tequila wrote:
Lord_Gareth: where d'you live? If you live in Canada, I can understand my views coming across as a bit intolerant if relations between Muslims and wider society is generally very good there (I haven't spent enough time in Canada to really comment). Individual Muslims are often very much like the rest of us and want no hassle either. It's a very mixed bag here in the UK.


I live pretty close to Detroit, actually, but I've spent a two-year stint in Missouri and Kansas (pro tip: the only good reason to go to Kansas is to relocate its citizens to another nation) and traveled the USA from New York, New York to Los Angeles. Most muslims I've met tend to be law-abiding, literate folks with the same kind of problems and baggage as the rest of us (and I get into the same fraggin' debates about being an atheist with them too), whereas conversely most christians I've met tend to have extreme views about foreign policy, treatment of enemies and prisoners, and civil rights. I feel it's more a consequence of the culture you grow up in than the religion you hold - I mean, look at the general political will of, say, Alabama, and then try to tell me that it wouldn't pretty much be AmeriGhanistan if it was its own independent nation.

I live in the Mississippi Delta. This IS Amerighanistan, but arguably for different reasons!



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21 Mar 2012, 10:47 am

Tequila wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
Most muslims I've met tend to be law-abiding, literate folks with the same kind of problems and baggage as the rest of us.


Do they wear niqab? Do they demand special treatment like some do here?


Some wear niqab, though most folks in my home town prefer the head-wrap that leaves their face exposed. Not all do - there are plenty of Muslim women in cheap, off-brand clothing that doesn't reveal their figure (as the command is simply to 'dress modestly'), mostly jeans and T-shirts. As far as I'm aware, there's been no recent outcry of discrimination in the area I live, but we also have some of the highest concentrations of Muslims in the USA, so it may simply be that no one gives a damn because they all live here. On the other hand, there's been plenty of protests about people 'trying to take the Christ out of Christmas' and 'taking God out of school'.


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Tequila
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21 Mar 2012, 10:48 am

And to put it in a different perspective: American Christian fundamentalism sounds pretty extreme and intolerant too. Neither is good. Secular liberalism is where it is at. :)



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21 Mar 2012, 10:50 am

It's a funny thing, because I suspect most people have no real issue with headscarves (I find some of them quite sexy!). I certainly don't and after all, they used to be commonplace in our culture too in years gone by. But the niqab is another matter, especially when the rules that apply to the rest of us don't apply to them. The niqab is also a pretty misogynistic and misandristic garment as well.



Last edited by Tequila on 21 Mar 2012, 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

TM
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21 Mar 2012, 10:50 am

Oodain wrote:
TM wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
It was more a statement of 'remove the beam from your own eye', than one that said 'Muslim women are different and you're not qualified to discuss them, ever'.

And why hasn't she locked this thread? That's because she's participating in the discussion, not moderating it. As for those other threads, I won't comment on that without them in front of me, but they were almost certainly locked because a rule break had occurred. If you break the rules, your thread gets locked. We don't go around locking threads simply because we disagree with them.


I find it problematic based on that the type of "deflection" or "red-herring" play she engages in is the same play that anyone to the left of center on the topic of multiculturalism or Islam goes to. There was a report from Norway where 100% of assault rapes in an area were done by men of "non-western" origin, the first comment was from a leader of an immigrant organization which went "well, we estimate that 16000 rapes occur every year, so Norwegian men rape too!"

If we were having a conversation about how horrid American beer is and some person chimed in "you know, Canadians make crap beer too" its not relevant to the discussion.


the reason people continously say that they arent alone is because they arent, do you knwo how much of a sub section fo norway they talked about?
1 county probably, sometimes as small as 3000 people in norway so among those 3000 the only rape that occured was by an immnigrant and suddenly you claim a 100%?

if it was a town then there are plenty with a size of a hundred and fifty people.

but in essence the reason why it pisses me off to see people demonize a single culture, even if deserved to a greater or lesser extent is that they rarely take care of their own shortcomings before trying to find a scapegoat for the worlds troubles.


The capital with a total of about 650.000 people (13% of the country's total population) and if you count the whole region about 45% of the country's population. A population where "non-western" people constitute about 5% of that population and the total number of rapes was 50. Out of those 50, all of them were committed by non-western man against native Norwegian women.



Last edited by TM on 21 Mar 2012, 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

ruveyn
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21 Mar 2012, 10:51 am

Tequila wrote:
And to put it in a different perspective: American Christian fundamentalism sounds pretty extreme and intolerant too. Neither is good. Secular liberalism is where it is at. :)


Have any American Christian fundies hijacked a commercial air flight and crashed it into a tall building?

Do American Christian Fundies strap on explosive packs and blow up supermarkets and bus-stops?

ruveyn



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21 Mar 2012, 10:52 am

ruveyn wrote:
Have any American Christian fundies hijacked a commercial air flight and crashed it into a tall building?


No, but some happily bomb abortion clinics.



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21 Mar 2012, 10:53 am

ruveyn wrote:
Tequila wrote:
And to put it in a different perspective: American Christian fundamentalism sounds pretty extreme and intolerant too. Neither is good. Secular liberalism is where it is at. :)


Have any American Christian fundies hijacked a commercial air flight and crashed it into a tall building?

Do American Christian Fundies strap on explosive packs and blow up supermarkets and bus-stops?

ruveyn


Well, there was that one asshat in Utah that drove his exploding truck into a building....


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TM
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21 Mar 2012, 10:54 am

Tequila wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Have any American Christian fundies hijacked a commercial air flight and crashed it into a tall building?


No, but some happily bomb abortion clinics.


I actually find it hilarious that pro-lifers are killing people.



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21 Mar 2012, 10:55 am

Lord_Gareth wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Tequila wrote:
And to put it in a different perspective: American Christian fundamentalism sounds pretty extreme and intolerant too. Neither is good. Secular liberalism is where it is at. :)


Have any American Christian fundies hijacked a commercial air flight and crashed it into a tall building?

Do American Christian Fundies strap on explosive packs and blow up supermarkets and bus-stops?

ruveyn


Well, there was that one asshat in Utah that drove his exploding truck into a building....


How often does that happen. In the case of Islamic Jihadis explosions are a daily event. In the case of Christian Fundies, maybe once every ten years.

ruveyn



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21 Mar 2012, 10:55 am

DC wrote:
spongy wrote:
Tequila wrote:
DC wrote:
If nice middle class white Canadian women were being treated in the same way by white men, Hyperlexian would be furious but because they are muslim women it's too culturally sensitive.

It is a totally racist viewpoint that puts rights for white women far above rights for muslim women.

How else would you describe it puddingmouse? Hyperlexian is perfectly happy to wax lyrical about womens rights just so long as nobody mentions Islam. The second Islam comes up Hyperlexian tells us we should not discuss it and be more concerned with issues closer at home.


Precisely.


Havent seen her say anything of the sort ever, feel free to post a link where she actually says that(ie not one of you putting words in her mouth) *and Ive talked with her for a while but let us just assume that she did say it at some point:

*if said link doesnt exist thats a personal attack and if she had anything against you she could send you a last warning and ban you right away


Page 7 of this thread.
hyperlexian wrote:
maybe work on fixing your internal problems before demonising other cultures or religions.


Granted I was paraphrasing, but the sentiment is roughly the same I think.

There is also this (in response to Hyperlex) if you get the impression it is just me and Tequila ganging up on Hyper:

NarcissusSavage wrote:
Why are you being intentionally blind to how hurtful the Islamic dogma is to the welfare of women all across the world?


For the record, I don't think Hyperlexian should be deposed, but I do think she should do some soul searching about moral double standards and hopefully if she rejoins this debate I will be able to demonstrate the moral bankruptcy of her position.


PS I know I said I would shut it, but a felt the need to respond to the request for a quote and ban threat.

In order to take that as you did you have to put a lot of imagination into it and as I said its putting words in her mouth.

As it was said by puddingmouse and several others what that quote means is that before trying to solve everyone else's problems we should try to solve our own first.
Now you can see that as a rather selfish thing to do and Id agree with that but she does have a point that we are currently in no position to give other cultures advice on how to treat the opposite sex(this sadly applies to males and females alike).

That being said if this thread was only focused how close-minded islam is then you could criticize them all you want on that asèct because you are indeed on a far more accepting community.



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21 Mar 2012, 10:58 am

ruveyn wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Tequila wrote:
And to put it in a different perspective: American Christian fundamentalism sounds pretty extreme and intolerant too. Neither is good. Secular liberalism is where it is at. :)


Have any American Christian fundies hijacked a commercial air flight and crashed it into a tall building?

Do American Christian Fundies strap on explosive packs and blow up supermarkets and bus-stops?

ruveyn


Well, there was that one asshat in Utah that drove his exploding truck into a building....


How often does that happen. In the case of Islamic Jihadis explosions are a daily event. In the case of Christian Fundies, maybe once every ten years.

ruveyn


Well, there's the guy with the truck, there's the abortion clinic bombings, the assassinations (generally of abortion clinic doctors), the militarized gun-cults, the doomsday survivalists getting into sieges with the 'fascist zionist government'....

Pretty often, I'd say, yeah. Plus it's really hard to classify what's happening in our war zones as being acts of terror - we are, after all, at war with those people. The buses and subway stations in other nations? Yeah, sure, that's horrible and totally unjustified...but so is bombing civilian targets and guess who's holding the World Championship Record on that one?

Yeah.


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