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puddingmouse
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20 Mar 2012, 10:05 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
i'd say it's.... different. if religion or a government were sheltering (or somehow responsible for) violence and sexual assault against women, then we should logically see much lower rates of it outside those protected areas. but we don't. so there is something else distinct from the religion that is causing the problems to happen. that is scary to me, because it's so.... amorphous. don't know what to pin it on.

for some reason it's so newsworthy when we hear about atrocities that are happening elsewhere, yet some of the same atrocities happen in our own backyards with no comment.


You have a fair point, but have you considered how frequently domestic abuse is even going to be reported in a country like Pakistan? My bet is on less frequently than in the UK.


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Tequila
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20 Mar 2012, 10:07 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
You have a fair point, but have you considered how frequently domestic abuse is even going to be reported in a country like Pakistan?


Well, if it's not a part of the Pakistani or Afghan official statistics, apparently it doesn't count.



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20 Mar 2012, 10:09 pm

Tequila wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
You have a fair point, but have you considered how frequently domestic abuse is even going to be reported in a country like Pakistan?


Well, if it's not a part of the Pakistani or Afghan official statistics, apparently it doesn't count.


She never said it doesn't count. I think she made an oversight.

You are very rhetorical.


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Tequila
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20 Mar 2012, 10:10 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
I think she made an oversight.


I don't think so.



hyperlexian
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20 Mar 2012, 10:15 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
i'd say it's.... different. if religion or a government were sheltering (or somehow responsible for) violence and sexual assault against women, then we should logically see much lower rates of it outside those protected areas. but we don't. so there is something else distinct from the religion that is causing the problems to happen. that is scary to me, because it's so.... amorphous. don't know what to pin it on.

for some reason it's so newsworthy when we hear about atrocities that are happening elsewhere, yet some of the same atrocities happen in our own backyards with no comment.


You have a fair point, but have you considered how frequently domestic abuse is even going to be reported in a country like Pakistan? My bet is on less frequently than in the UK.

i don't think it is reported very often in any country. nonetheless the statistics are not usually compiled from police reports - they are stdies and surveys that speak to the women directly so that they can feel safer to speak up.


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DC
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20 Mar 2012, 11:18 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
DC wrote:
You see here is the Nitty Gritty. On the map basically there is zero data for all of Africa and zero data for the entire middle east. How on earth do derive the conclusions that you do when you have no data?
there were some countries from the middle east represented. perhaps you need to brush up on your geography?



Careful now, that almost sounds like a personal attack and surely self righteous moderators should hold themselves to higher standard of behaviour than the racist trolls they moderate?

OK time for a geography lesson.

What is the middle east?

The middle east is a phrase invented by the British to refer to to what is now three countries, Iran, Iraq Afghanistan. Because they halfway between Britain and India.

Later on the phrase was extended to the area of land stretching from the Mediterranean in the west upto but not including Pakistan in the east and includes all of the Arabian peninsula.

What are these countries?

Iran
Iraq
Afghanistan
Israel
Jordan
Kuwait
Lebanon
Oman
Saudi Arabia
Syria
United Arab Emirates
Yemen
Bahrain
Qatar

So lets look back at our map shall we?

Of these countries, there is one, only one that isn't a 'no data' country and that is Afghanistan where apparently, according to this map, the femicide rate is less than one per hundred thousand women.

Which is a little odd considering a few pages later the very same document claims that femicide in Afghanistan is endemic and a massive problem.

So out of 14 countries in the middle east, 13 have no data and the remaining one has data that is contradicted by the evidence in the same document.

Ooooops.

Perhaps you need to brush up on your research skills or honesty?


Quote:
Quote:
You are actually using this document to justify your statement

yes, absolutely. the document also shows how prevalent the violence is in other countries.


That is a nice editing out of your original statement. I asked if you were using this document to justify your claim that
Quote:
the rates of violence are the same, so there is no difference in the result.


You are serious? You genuinely think that this document demonstrates that the rates of violence against women are the same in Canada as they are in Afghanistan? Even though the document choose to focus on countries like Libya and Afghanistan?

You really think that British and Canadian non-muslim women are being murdered by their own family because they were raped?

Quote:
Quote:
When making absurd claims defending Islam perhaps you should choose better sources in future. :lol:

my points were supported by that document. you went on some tangents with most of your points, and they had absolutely nothing to do with what we were discussing.



Could you please explain how me pointing out that your own evidentiary document source citing Afghanistan and Libya as particular problems for violence against women is at a tangent to either this thread or your derailment of it?

Thread starts about Islam.
You derail it, so it is a thread about violence against women in the rest of the world
I point out that you own source highlights islamic countries as a particular problem for violence against women
You ignore this completely claiming it is irrelevant.

Wow, your intellectual dishonesty is truly breathtaking Hyperlexian, I had no idea you were such a sore loser.

Quote:
here's more:
http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/ ... ort_BW.pdf

this report from the UN demonstrates that a woman in Australia was more than 35% more likely to have experienced physical violence in their lifetime than a woman in Egypt, and more women in New Zealand experience spousal abuse than Egypt.

women are more likely to be severely beaten by an intimate partner in Peru (a Christian country) than in Ethiopia (a Muslim nation), even though it is not sanctioned by the government.


Oh great another 100 page women's rights document to wade through, so that you can cherry pick and ignore the rest.

Objection one - In a lot of these countries, governments lie. for example the president of Iran claims that there are zero homosexual men in Iran.

Objection two- Try scrolling to page 135 of your new evidence. Where it talks about Female Genital Mutilation. Oh dear, Egypt and Ethiopia not looking so women friendly now is it?

Objection three - Lets look at page 138. Oh dear oh dear. In Egypt 45% of women believe it is acceptable for a husband to beat his wife if she goes outside without his permission, 40% think a beating is acceptable for arguing with your husband and 35% thinking a beating is fine if they refuse to have sex with their husband. HINT do you think violence against women might be under reported if the women being beaten believe they deserve it?

What is the justification for FGM and wife beating in Egypt? Oh, that would be Islam wouldn't it...


Rock on you radical feminist Hyperlexian, why don't you support Egypt as a feminist utopia some more?


Quote:
24% of women in the United Kingdon have been sexually assaulted by their intimate partners. admittedly, that's less than half of the women in Ethipia, but still... if 1 in 4 women has been raped by a partner in the UK (and they would be mostly Christian women), then it seems like there are significant problems close to home. maybe work on fixing your internal problems before demonising other cultures or religions.




And yet more intellectual dishonesty.

Problem one, sexual assault is not rape.
Problem two, your figures are BS.

To quote you from another thread:

hyperlexian wrote:
you have provided a statistic that appears to have been generated out of thin air. if you make an assertion like that there is an expectation you will back it up with actual evidence. the onus is not on the people who are questioning the statement, the onus is on the person who made the original assertion.


I would like to see your evidence that 1 in 4 British women are raped because I happen to know that you 'generated this figure out of thin air'.



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20 Mar 2012, 11:56 pm

:lol: so it's a personal attack for you to give me a "geography lesson" then? and no, i am not held to a higher standard then other people on the site. we have the same standards of behaviour.

yes there was one country from the middle east represented in the first set of statistics. not sure what your problem is with that. and i provided data from another source that had information about 2 other nations.

also, there are other ISLAMIC nations that are represented in both sets of data. we are talking about Islam, aren't we? or do you just want to include the middle east?

here is a summary of the informatioon i could find:

islamic countries do not have any more violence against women than some non-islamic countries.

it may be useful for you to do some of your own research instead of trying to just wear me down with snide remarks and fisking. unless you don't have anything of merit to contribute?

i don't recall saying that Egypt was a feminist utopia. oh by the way, considering that the women who stated they were beaten in Egypt were the same ones who said it was acceptable, it wouldn't have been underreported, would it? =and those were not government statistics.

also female genital mutilation is an african custom, not an islamic one. nice detour, but again - irrelevant. you need to do more research really.

Quote:
Problem one, sexual assault is not rape.

you're right, rape is just included in sexual assault. but do you really think a wife would call it sexual assault if her hudband brushed against her boob?

Quote:
Problem two, your figures are BS.

no.... you found some extra data (most of it irrelevant, obviously), but you have not proven the sources to be invalid. i haven't seen you provide any evidence to refute my claims. go ahead and try.

lastly, the topic is about islam. the first minute of an inane video discussed violence against women that is sanctioned by islam. so i responded to that.


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hyperlexian
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20 Mar 2012, 11:59 pm

Tequila wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
You have a fair point, but have you considered how frequently domestic abuse is even going to be reported in a country like Pakistan?


Well, if it's not a part of the Pakistani or Afghan official statistics, apparently it doesn't count.

you ignored the second set of data.

anyway, are you talking about Islam or the middle east?


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DC
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21 Mar 2012, 12:11 am

To quote you from another thread:

hyperlexian wrote:
you have provided a statistic that appears to have been generated out of thin air. if you make an assertion like that there is an expectation you will back it up with actual evidence. the onus is not on the people who are questioning the statement, the onus is on the person who made the original assertion.


I would like to see your evidence that 1 in 4 British women are raped because I happen to know that you 'generated this figure out of thin air'.

You have ignored this request once, how many more times are you going to ignore it?

Do you intend to carry on just making evidence up and ignoring any perfectly reasonable requests for you to provide a source?



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21 Mar 2012, 12:15 am

all evidence was in the links i provided. can you provide any counter-evidence, or are you just playing games?


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Chronos
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21 Mar 2012, 12:16 am

I've not read watched the original video. I've watched previous videos from this man and I know his stance on Islam (and religion in general), nor have I read all of the replies. However I've known many muslims in my life, and I've yet to meet a violent or crazy one. I'm sure they're out there...it's rather obvious that they are, but consider that they are just as much a threat to secular and moderate muslims as they are to everyone else.

Islamic extremists are frequently even threats to very religious muslims, and even other extremists, because they view their brand of Islam as the true Islam and seek enforce that with violence.

I do understand what provokes Mr. Condell; the encroachment of extremism and certain (negative) middle eastern cultural elements on British society. And to some extend, on the subject of cultural preservation, I empathize with him. However I fear he has crossed the line into hate mongering on too many occasions, and has alienated secular, moderate, and otherwise integrated muslims who would otherwise agree with his stance on the issue of the "islamification" of British society.



DC
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21 Mar 2012, 12:24 am

hyperlexian wrote:
all evidence was in the links i provided. can you provide any counter-evidence, or are you just playing games?



You provide no evidence for your claim that 1 in 4 women in Britain has been raped.

It did not appear in either of the two documents you posted. I checked.

It seems odd that you are posting evidence you haven't read and attributing made up facts to them that don't exist.

If you really think either of those two documents state that 1 in 4 British women have been raped give the page number.


What a remarkable case of double standards, read the following quote from yourself and apply the same standards to yourself that you are demanding of other people.

hyperlexian wrote:
you have provided a statistic that appears to have been generated out of thin air. if you make an assertion like that there is an expectation you will back it up with actual evidence. the onus is not on the people who are questioning the statement, the onus is on the person who made the original assertion.



I know that your figure is absurd, I know that you have made it up and I know it doesn't appear in either of those documents because unlike you I have actually checked them.

Now prove your statement or apologise and retract it.



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21 Mar 2012, 12:30 am

Tequila wrote:
aghogday wrote:
it is more likely the result of living conditions, and what people will do to survive.


I don't see news reports of gangs of white men raping underage girls in places like Keighley and Bradford. Nor do I see Sikhs or Hindus in gangs and treating white women like this either.

It's to do with the cultural interpretation of their religion - the Religion of Peace.


Gang Rape is not reflective of the teachings of the Qu' ran, nor or the other fringe elements that attach themselves to the religion of Islam.

For the most part Muslims practice their religion peacefully and lawfully in the US. Muslim Citizens pose no significant problems, above and beyond anyone else that practices religion in the US.

There are Somali Immigrants that have not been able to assimilate themselves into the culture, and have resorted to crime in isolated cases in the US, but this is not an issue of religion, any more than it is for Mexican Immigrants, who have not assimiliated themselves into the culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam

Quote:
RapeSee also: Zina (Arabic)
According to the sunnah, a woman should not be punished for having been coerced into having sex.[64][65] This is made clear by the following hadith:

During the time of the Prophet (saw) punishment was inflicted on the rapist on the solitary evidence of the woman who was raped by him. Wa'il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah's messenger, who said to the woman, "Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you," but of the man who had raped her, he said, "Stone him to death." (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)

According to a Sunni hadith, the punishment for committing rape is death, there is no blame attached to the victim.[66][67]

According to Muslim writer, Khalilah Sabra, despite the teaching of Islam, "An overhaul in of present laws and an objective approach to enforcing just laws that violate women must go hand in hand with a fresh look at the rights of women in countries like Saudi Arabia. The question of who interprets and who enforces the law is an important as the contents of the law itself. Presently, female victims of sexual violence throughout the Middle East who seek justice must rely on a series of male authority figures whose masculine orientation, values, and suspicions place them squarely in the ‘criminal’ camp." <refhttp://www.theshalomcenter.org/node/1323>




http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3397433.stm

According to representatives from Scotland Yard, the wave of gang rapes described below in London were not a race related issue, instead related to youth crime. Very possible that some of the rapists were immigrants, but the demograhic of gang rapists was not limited to any one race, religion, or national origin.

Quote:
Police believe disrespect for women, who are often known to the attackers, and ignorance of what is "right and wrong" in sexual affairs, lie at the heart of the crime.

Commander John Yates, Metropolitan Police
Half the victims were under 21, 75% under 30 and in about 50% of cases the attackers were known to the victims. More than half the assaults involved three or more attackers.
About 70% of victims were attacked in "outdoor locations", often near main roads.

Women and girls of white or European appearance accounted for 59% of victims with 28% of victims described as African or Caribbean.

Suspects of African or Caribbean backgrounds were identified in 49% of attacks or allegation of assaults and 13% were committed by men of Indian or Pakistani appearance.

But Scotland Yard said youths from other ethnic groups, including whites, were involved in the gangs, suggesting that the attacks were linked to patterns of youth crime rather than simply race.


In the link below 95% of outstanding homicide warrants were attributed to illegal immigrants in Los Angeles. Gang rapes, mafia activity, and forest fires have been attributed to illegal immigrants. They have not been identified as Muslims.

Criminal activity among immigrants isn't an issue specific to religion. The immigrants in these cases in Northern Europe just happen to be from Muslim countries. Some are having trouble assimilating into the culture and are turning to crime.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html



hyperlexian
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21 Mar 2012, 12:46 am

DC wrote:
You provide no evidence for your claim that 1 in 4 women in Britain has been raped.


i corrected that to sexually assaulted (you were correct), and it was in the second document. page 224.

and now that you know the truth, what will you do about it?


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DC
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21 Mar 2012, 1:43 am

hyperlexian wrote:
DC wrote:
You provide no evidence for your claim that 1 in 4 women in Britain has been raped.


i corrected that to sexually assaulted (you were correct), and it was in the second document. page 224.

and now that you know the truth, what will you do about it?


I will disprove it.

According to page 224 of your UN report the source for that data is in table 6.E on page 232 and turns out to be the British Crime Survey supplement 06/07.

Excellent. This is online.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. ... sb0308.pdf

Lets do a little reading and see if we can find that 24% figure. Aha! page 58 gives us this:

Quote:
Overall 24 per cent of people aged 16 to 59 were victims of any partner abuse (nonphysical abuse, threats, force, sexual assault or stalking) since the age of 16; five percent experienced this type of abuse in the last year.


But that is from the summary, lets look at the details.

First off lets look more clearly at the phrase partner abuse.

Quote:
Box 3.2 Definition of partner abuse
Partner abuse is defined in this chapter to include the following types of non-physical abuse
and violence by a current or former partner:
1. Non-physical abuse (emotional or financial), threats or force – non-sexual.
2. Sexual assault: indecent exposure, sexual threats and unwanted touching (‘less
serious’), rape or assault by penetration including attempts (‘serious’).
3. Stalking: two or more incidents – causing distress, fear or alarm – of
obscene/threatening unwanted letters or phone calls, waiting or loitering around home or
workplace, following or watching, or interfering with or damaging personal property


So included in this 24% figure is:

Interfering with personal property
Unwanted communication
Verbal threats
emotional or financial abuse

Oh dear this doesn't sound like it should be all classified as 'sexual violence' in the UN report, lets see if we can find something more accurate. After all the UN definition on page 224 of your report is this

Quote:
Sexual violence: An act aimed to force the woman to engage in sexual acts against her will (or without her consent)



Page 73 of the BCS should do nicely. 3% of people between 16 & 59 report ever suffering sexual assault in their lives.


The person compiling your UN report simply skimmed through the BCS and grabbed the 'partner abuse' figure from the summary. They should have read more clearly and picked the 3% figure from the details as what the BCS calls 'serious sexual assault' is the closest thing to what the UN call 'sexual violence'.


Happy now Hyperlexian?



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21 Mar 2012, 1:52 am

hyperlexian wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Tequila wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
doesn't matter because people do it anyways.


There's a difference between something going on in a culture and it not being officially approved of and is stamped out wherever possible and the kind of women-hating dogma in place in places like, ooh, Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.

the rates of violence are the same, so there is no difference in the result. with or without religious sanction there is suffering.


You really don't think the religious sanction makes it worse?

I guess I know it's worse from having grown up religious.

i'd say it's.... different. if religion or a government were sheltering (or somehow responsible for) violence and sexual assault against women, then we should logically see much lower rates of it outside those protected areas. but we don't. so there is something else distinct from the religion that is causing the problems to happen. that is scary to me, because it's so.... amorphous. don't know what to pin it on.

for some reason it's so newsworthy when we hear about atrocities that are happening elsewhere, yet some of the same atrocities happen in our own backyards with no comment.


You are very mistaken on this point.

If an act is sanctioned by the society you live in, it will NOT be reported as a crime in the first place. You cannot use women crime statistics to demonstrate less violence to women, because in these countries being discussed, violence to women is often not a crime. Even if you go door to door and have a private chat with large swaths of dominated women, they will not report being abused, because 1) They are taught by their society that they are not being abused, and 2) They are afraid of the chances of reprisal from their domestic partners, and here is the big nasty kicker 3) to discuss this type of behavior is to dishonor their family and that could very well be considered a crime, which would get them beaten or killed. Because much of the outrageous violence against these women is being done BY the society, as punishment for essentially being female.

Would you have a problem with the punishment for being raped, yes, BEING raped was to be stoned to death? How would you take it if your country adopted the laws and government framework to begin prosecuting and executing women who get raped by stoning them to death? And how would you think of the situation if the political motivations that caused this change came from a religion that held power in your country? Would you be even the slightest bit upset with the religion??

We all can acknowledge that women’s rights have come a long way in some countries, and need to go even further in most. But when such blatant and egregious crimes against women are consistently perpetrated and endorsed by a religion, at some point, you really must stop and contemplate if that religion may just be a bit responsible…and just maybe it might be ok to criticize the views that religion is taking on the welfare of those under its control. Just maybe you think you can do that?

And all this talk about just the abuse side of the coin doesn’t even begin to do a discussion of women’s rights justice. Women deserve FAR more than just to not be tossed around. Islamic countries make it government policy to suppress the rights of women, the culture supports the idea that women are to be submissive to men, they do not have liberty, they do not make many of their own life choices. These issues are paramount! Why are you being intentionally blind to how hurtful the Islamic dogma is to the welfare of women all across the world?


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Last edited by NarcissusSavage on 21 Mar 2012, 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.