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Joker
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01 May 2012, 9:13 pm

CrazyCatLord wrote:
Joker wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Orr wrote:
AdamAdam wrote:
People do not "become" gay.


Do you have any evidence of this?

I suspected a genetic and environmental correlation, but have not done any research.


Research suggests that homosexuality (like most neurological or neuroendocrinological traits) has both a genetic and an environmental / developmental component. But the environmental trigger occurs very early, probably prenatally. Which means that gays have been born gay, even if they "became gay" in the womb.

There is the special case of bisexual people who first identify as heterosexual and later decide to focus on their same-sex interests, often after some disappointing opposite-sex relationships. I remember the recent media outrage when Sex and the City actress Cynthia Nixon announced that she had chosen to become a lesbian. I assume that she had become aware of her existing bisexual tendencies and decided that she liked women better than men. So in this sense, people can kind of become gay in their adult life.


If that is true then ones envoriment growing up can play a role as well.


I'm not sure about that. Many neurodevelopmental traits are determined at a very early stage, often before birth. This seems to be the case for sexual orientation (and for autism too btw). There is no evidence that post-birth development has any influence on sexual orientation.


Yes I know but we are all born sexual beings but with out a sexual preferrence at birth.



blauSamstag
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01 May 2012, 11:30 pm

AdamAdam wrote:
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So, are you saying that an inability to emotionally connect with people of the opposite sex makes you de-facto gay, or are you saying that some people have homosexual relationships who are not gay?


Eh? How did you get any of that from what I posted?

Quote:
who decide that they must be lesbians late in their life,


Decide, or realise?

Most of your "evidence" seems to come from your own personal experience with people yo've met. I can't believe you've met THAT many gay people for this to have much weight though. I've met plenty of gay people and have the exact opposite impression. ie that it was something they always were, some just take longer to realise or accept it.

If a woman isn't "naturally" attracted to other women, but decided to "become lesbian" after failed relationships with men, is she actually lesbian then? I would say she's either pretending to be lesbian, or fooling herself into believing she is. But I think this is probably very rare.


I got that from what you said by the incontrovertible fact that there are people leading homosexual lifestyles who are demonstrably not actually gay. Which raises the question of where the line between "open minded" and "full on gay" really lies, and makes it clear that there is gray area.

I don't think same-sex attraction is a black and white issue. I think it's a mix of genetic predispositions, early neurological development, and both positive and negative environmental and developmental factors.

I think most straight girls are a little skeeved out by bisexual guys, while most straight men have no issue at all (on the surface) with bisexual girls. Female bisexuality is even fashionable.

I think there is a preponderance of evidence that women in general are more concerned with emotional fulfillment than with sexual gratification, and that guys aren't nearly that way.

There are a lot of psychosocial factors, and to believe that all people who claim to be gay or who lead a gay lifestyle have been totally gay forever is to embrace a false dichotomy.

Oh, and Utah is a lot gayer than you would think. In Mormon culture, gay people frequently marry hetero and procreate as best they can muster until they realize after three or four kids that they are living a lie, and even then they may stay in the closet. You know, for the sake of the children. If homosexuality has a genetic component, mormons have it in spades.



ArrantPariah
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02 May 2012, 7:22 am

Joker wrote:
Yes I know but we are all born sexual beings but with out a sexual preferrence at birth.


I didn't become a sexual being until much later.



naturalplastic
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04 May 2012, 10:48 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
Joker wrote:
Yes I know but we are all born sexual beings but with out a sexual preferrence at birth.


I didn't become a sexual being until much later.


Well-lets say that we are born genetically programed to become sexual at puberty or whenever- some years later than actual birth.
Like catepillars who born to eventually become butterflies.

But @joker - how do you KNOW sexual orientation isnt genetically set at birth?

The scientific community has no consensus against that theory.



visagrunt
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04 May 2012, 3:02 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
I didn't become a sexual being until much later.


I can't speak to your personal experience, of course. But in general, I subscribe to the view that by the time a human being is born, all the essentials are in place.

We are, of course, born with all of the physiological equipment to be sexual beings. And I'm not just talking about the basic plumbing--I'm also talking about the anatomical structures in the brain that direct our sexuality and our sexual behaviour. It's not necessarily switched on, but it's all there.

Many infants display sexualized behaviour (with some boys the death grip that he will have on his penis makes one wonder that it will survive 'til puberty...) and while it may not have a sexual focus, there is still plenty of social play among children that demonstrates nascent sexuality.


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Joker
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04 May 2012, 3:06 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Joker wrote:
Yes I know but we are all born sexual beings but with out a sexual preferrence at birth.


I didn't become a sexual being until much later.


Well-lets say that we are born genetically programed to become sexual at puberty or whenever- some years later than actual birth.
Like catepillars who born to eventually become butterflies.

But @joker - how do you KNOW sexual orientation isnt genetically set at birth?

The scientific community has no consensus against that theory.


True but the key word is theory many scientists can disproove a theory. And because I don't see it logical to believe that are you saying the DNA works like a computer proggram installing a sexiual orienataion at birth?



CrazyCatLord
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04 May 2012, 3:47 pm

DNA actually does work pretty much like a computer program. Life is a form of digital information transfer at its core, to paraphrase Richard Dawkins. But the epigenome adds countless IF-THEN statements to this program. IF certain environment conditions are met THEN enable genes A and B that code for particular traits.

In practice, this means that parents pass on a gene to their children that causes homosexuality in case of certain epigenomic processes, but also has the great advantage of causing increased fertility in women (which explains how such a gene can be selected for). When a certain environmental trigger occurs, perhaps certain hormone levels in the prenatal period, this gene is switched on and codes for a neuroendocrinological development that leads to homosexual orientation in later life.



CrazyCatLord
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04 May 2012, 3:55 pm

visagrunt wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
I didn't become a sexual being until much later.


I can't speak to your personal experience, of course. But in general, I subscribe to the view that by the time a human being is born, all the essentials are in place.

We are, of course, born with all of the physiological equipment to be sexual beings. And I'm not just talking about the basic plumbing--I'm also talking about the anatomical structures in the brain that direct our sexuality and our sexual behaviour. It's not necessarily switched on, but it's all there.

Many infants display sexualized behaviour (with some boys the death grip that he will have on his penis makes one wonder that it will survive 'til puberty...) and while it may not have a sexual focus, there is still plenty of social play among children that demonstrates nascent sexuality.


Gender identity is also an example of early sexual development. Transgender people are usually certain of their sexual gender identity at a very young age, long before puberty.



ArrantPariah
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13 Jun 2012, 7:04 pm

[img][800:774]http://thewe.cc/thewei/_/us_terror_state/washington_times.gif[/img]



Joker
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13 Jun 2012, 7:31 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
[img][800:774]http://thewe.cc/thewei/_/us_terror_state/washington_times.gif[/img]


Whats with your obsession with Ronald Reagan?



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13 Jun 2012, 7:38 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
[img][800:774]http://thewe.cc/thewei/_/us_terror_state/washington_times.gif[/img]

Was it really necessary to resurrect this thread over that?



Joker
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13 Jun 2012, 7:42 pm

AstroGeek wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
[img][800:774]http://thewe.cc/thewei/_/us_terror_state/washington_times.gif[/img]

Was it really necessary to resurrect this thread over that?


True very true



ArrantPariah
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13 Jun 2012, 8:28 pm

Well, as long as I don't violate any rules....



ArrantPariah
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15 Jun 2012, 12:49 pm

I give you: the Top Five Gay Republican Sex Scandals

http://badmouth.net/top-five-republican ... -scandals/



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15 Jun 2012, 12:59 pm

...and, the most recent...

http://blog.outtakeonline.com/2012/06/f ... -utah.html

Quote:
A not so funny thing happened to gay Republican Presidential candidate Fred Karger this week while campaigning in Utah. First he had what he thought was a great meeting with the Washington County GOP Chairman Willie Billings. Then a few hours later he received this nasty anti gay email from his wife Nanette Billings, “you are an idiot. You met with my husband Willie Billings today about you being on the Utah ballot. He brought your frisby, and tshirt home & it is now out in the trash. I never want to hear from such a radical idiot again. you think you are conseritave? conseritave means you beleive in the values of founding fathers and God. Do you know you cant procreate right? Well thank goodness for that.” First of all in our No No to Nanette who should learn about spell-check. So then she added more insult to injury when Yahoo contacted her to confirm she sent the email she added, "My feeling is the only reason he's running for president is to find more [sexual] partners. To get more people on his bandwagon." Karger reacted by stating “It felt like a knife had been twisted in my stomach. Was it real? Was she serious? Two journalists called Mrs. Billings & what she said about me to them was even nastier.” We interviewed Fred for OUTTAKE VOICES™ in March. Karger has worked on 9 presidential campaigns & served as a senior consultant on campaigns for Presidents Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush & Gerald Ford. He retired after 27 years & has since then became an activist for gay rights, including his organization Californians Against Hate (now Rights Equal Rights) to investigate the LDS Church & the National Organization for Marriage in their campaigns against marriage equality in California & Maine. Mrs. Billings should have listened to our audio interview with Karger before she went on her homophobic rampage.


Mrs. Billings is obviously projecting her own homosexual feelings onto Mr. Karger, so that she can supress these feelings by bashing him.

Another closeted Gay, outed from the Republican community.



ArrantPariah
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16 Jun 2012, 2:54 pm

Here is a Baptist preacher who is most assuredly gay

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2n7vSPwhSU[/youtube]