Australia: land of kangroos, people that need to lighten up

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Oodain
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20 Jun 2012, 1:28 am

Dox47 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I certainly don't want that type of American "gun culture" associated with right wing politics (Neo-Nazis and the Tea party) coming to Australia and applaud the AOC for punishing Darcy and Monk for the glamorization of guns.


Back to your room Junior! Serious people are talking.

You can come back when you have any knowledge or experience with American gun culture, not just ignorance and a strong opinion.


anyone concerned about the reputation of their activities should adjust them accordingly instead of expecting others to adjust theirs, if not its another argument.


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Dox47
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20 Jun 2012, 2:19 am

Declension wrote:
The photograph is sending out the message: "Guns are cool." It conceals the true significance of guns: guns are tools which are used to kill things.


I said it before but I'll say it again; guns are cool, it's not a message that needs athletes in photographs to spread. I also fail to see what's wrong with sending the "guns are cool" message even if it weren't already out there; your message seems to be that there is something inherently wrong with gun ownership and that promoting it in any way is wrong, which I of course reject.

I also didn't really get an answer as to what "gun culture" you were referring to as negative. Maybe you meant that there are irresponsible people within gun culture? I'd give you that, but then argue that correct information and instruction, not censorious overreaction, are the proper responses.

Declension wrote:
Consider this as an analogy: I think that there are legitimate uses for cars. But if I saw a Youtube video of teenagers being stupid with cars, I would condemn it as irresponsible.


Gotta split hairs a bit and mention context, as "responsible use" of anything depends to a certain extent upon the context. I know some pretty young dirt-bike racers, for example, who certainly do things with their bikes that wouldn't be safe for an average rider to do yet are not particularly dangerous for them given their experience. I also know some pretty young martial artists who wave blades around in ways that certainly look dangerous, but again are completely responsible in light of their training. This picture was just two guys posing with unloaded guns in a shop, no pointing, no horseplay, no irresponsibility that was visible in the picture. Did they look like tourists pulling movie poses? Yep, but that's not dangerous or illegal.

Declension wrote:
You're confusing free-speech issues with moral judgment issues and the rights of private organisations. Nobody is saying that it should be illegal to create such a photograph!


Fair enough, but the fact that they've been sanctioned at all is still ridiculous, and I'll continue to say so.

Declension wrote:
They are saying that it is irresponsible and sends the wrong message.


What message is that?

Declension wrote:
If Swimming Australia demands that the photograph be taken down or else they will reprimand the swimmers, that is entirely a private issue and could legally happen anywhere, including the US. Are you saying that in the US, it is illegal for a private club to fire me for saying something they don't like? Of course it isn't illegal.


Is Swimming Australia an entirely private entity? Did they have a "don't pose with firearms" policy in effect before this happened, or did they just make it up on the fly? Regardless, I've never argued against their ability to do what they've done (unless they are government affiliated, in which case I don't believe they should have that power), merely pointed out the stupidity of the whole thing. In other words, I think they're censorious asshats whether I think they're within their legal rights or not.


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Declension
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20 Jun 2012, 2:47 am

Dox47 wrote:
I also fail to see what's wrong with sending the "guns are cool" message even if it weren't already out there; your message seems to be that there is something inherently wrong with gun ownership and that promoting it in any way is wrong, which I of course reject.


Not at all. In fact, I see my position as being the exact opposite of that. Let me put it this way: if I went into a gun store, would I pose like that? No, never. Why? Well, one of the reasons is that my family owns a rifle, and I have used it to kill things. That is a factor in why I take guns seriously.

Dox47 wrote:
I also didn't really get an answer as to what "gun culture" you were referring to as negative.


You need to understand that in Australasia, the phrase "gun culture" is almost always used negatively. I can't think of a better summary of what I am referring to than the photograph itself. Look at it. In the photograph, guns are seen as toys. It's like a video game, or a movie. It erodes the mental connection between guns and death.

Dox47 wrote:
Fair enough, but the fact that they've been sanctioned at all is still ridiculous, and I'll continue to say so.


This thread reminds me of an earlier thread where Americans were getting all worked up about a European country not having the death penalty. If the US were some sort of shining example with very little violent crime, maybe people would be more likely to listen to your recommendations. You have already admitted that there are some "factors" in US society which result in a higher gun crime rate. Why would you mock another country which is attempting to avoid these factors?

Dox47 wrote:
Is Swimming Australia an entirely private entity? Did they have a "don't pose with firearms" policy in effect before this happened, or did they just make it up on the fly? Regardless, I've never argued against their ability to do what they've done (unless they are government affiliated, in which case I don't believe they should have that power), merely pointed out the stupidity of the whole thing.


I have no idea about how government-affiliated Swimming Australia is. But it's certainly at least a pseudo-private entity. It has its own constitution. Anyway, the idea that the US has glorious constitutional provisions which would prevent such a thing is just false. The Boy Scouts of America explicitly discriminates against gays and nonbelievers, and it receives huge support from federal and local government.



Last edited by Declension on 20 Jun 2012, 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

aghogday
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20 Jun 2012, 2:49 am

Dox47 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I certainly don't want that type of American "gun culture" associated with right wing politics (Neo-Nazis and the Tea party) coming to Australia and applaud the AOC for punishing Darcy and Monk for the glamorization of guns.


Back to your room Junior! Serious people are talking.

You can come back when you have any knowledge or experience with American gun culture, not just ignorance and a strong opinion.


It's pretty obvious in the picture that the guy on the left is making an attempt to mock gang culture, which guns are an integral part. It is what some in other countries identify as the dangerous part of American Gun culture as an integral part of the entire gun culture . Not the gun culture where I live, that is associated with hunting, where people have a great deal of respect for their guns, and hunting is a major focus of life, for a good part of the year.

Part of the problem with the article quoted in this thread, is it doesn't draw attention to the fact that the guy on the left with the smirk and the attempted "gangsta" pose, has two guns not one.

If the guy on the right is attempting to mock the "gangsta" gun culture, he's not doing a very good job of it, and if both of them were posing like that, I'm not sure that the AOC would have seen it as offensive considering the concerns in that country over rising gang violence associated with contraband guns. However, they had already been bad news for the image of the Swim team, for good reason, so they were already on a short rope.

It's interesting looking at the comments beyond this thread, from the American general public, of the defense of guns that have been taken by most, whereas if it had been an African American football player in the picture, the focus would have likely been at the person and "gangsta" culture instead of the defense of the guns.

That's part of the problem, where defense of the guns, is more important than the fact that the photo minimizes the serious nature of actual gang violence.

For those people reading American comments on the issue in countries like Australia and the UK, it reinforces the negative image of US gun culture that exists in other countries, whether only warranted in criminal activity or not, as sensationalized in stories like the one below, from the Herald Sun in Australia.

Not likely it would be much of an issue, if it was just another couple of guys in the general public, but it promotes a poor image of gun culture, because of the amount of attention the image has received, regardless of where the photo might be taken, in that it minimizes the violent aspect of gang activity associated with guns.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/gun-culture-on-the-rise/story-e6frf7l6-1226332737765

Quote:
FEARS that gun fuelled bikie wars are spreading across Australia continue to grow as authorities in three states try to grapple with the spiralling fire arm problem.

Yesterday NSW Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione warned that a US style gun culture was heading to Australia.

He said in NSW said the shootings between rival bikie and other criminal gangs were generally over drugs, turf or organised crime and previously were resolved with a punch-up.

"Well, those days appear to have gone," Mr Scipione said.

More likely, he believes Australia's biggest city is shifting towards American gun culture, where people settle disputes with firearms.

Nine men have suffered gunshot wounds during 19 shootings in Sydney in April with a total of 52 shootings occurring in Sydney in 2012.

"Perhaps we're moving down the American path where these sorts of disputes are resolved on the end of a handgun," Ms Scipione said.



Vexcalibur
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20 Jun 2012, 5:50 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Oh Noez,
People are talking about yet another topic on which I'm ignorant!

MUST MAKE POINTLESS COMMENT!! !!
:roll:
Yes, Dox47, just as you suspected, everyone who disagrees with you on a topic is ignorant about that topic.


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Dox47
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20 Jun 2012, 6:28 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Yes, Dox47, just as you suspected, everyone who disagrees with you on a topic is ignorant about that topic.


Not everyone, mostly just you and Cyberdad in this case. I can see how you'd think I say that to everyone though, seeing as you've yet to make an informed comment that I've seen.


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cyberdad
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20 Jun 2012, 8:02 pm

aghogday wrote:
It's pretty obvious in the picture that the guy on the left is making an attempt to mock gang culture, which guns are an integral part. It is what some in other countries identify as the dangerous part of American Gun culture as an integral part of the entire gun culture . Not the gun culture where I live, that is associated with hunting, where people have a great deal of respect for their guns, and hunting is a major focus of life, for a good part of the year.
[/quote]

Exactly



cyberdad
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20 Jun 2012, 8:14 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Back to your room Junior! Serious people are talking.


I'm pretty sure I am older than you.

Dox47 wrote:
You can come back when you have any knowledge or experience with American gun culture, not just ignorance and a strong opinion.


Here's links that shows an association between gun owners, right wing racists and the Tea Party.
http://www.examiner.com/article/kkk-beg ... un-control
http://multi.lectical.net/content/redne ... strategies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S38VioxnBaI
http://thinkprogress.org/security/2010/ ... ?mobile=nc

and here's the missing piece of the puzzle
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-573 ... un-charge/
http://www.freewoodpost.com/2012/03/22/ ... gislation/
http://www.today.ucla.edu/portal/ut/the ... 78589.aspx

The evidence is overwhelming for the connection between gun ownership, support for the Republicans/Tea Party, Connection to right wing extremism.

Dow we want this type of right wing movement in AUstralia....no thanks....