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Will gun confiscation start the Second American Civil War
Very Likely 44%  44%  [ 19 ]
No 35%  35%  [ 15 ]
Just show me results 21%  21%  [ 9 ]
Total votes : 43

Jacoby
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19 Dec 2012, 4:58 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Giftorcurse wrote:
Surely, the fact that there have been four terrible shootings by "psychos" this year isn't reason enough to believe that we have a Manchurian Candidate situation on our hands. Ever hear of MKULTRA?

Grow up.


MKULTRA was a failed attempt by the CIA to create unconscious assassins for "wet work" during intelligence operations - not to shoot up schools, malls, or movie theaters.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I have no reason to believe these killings have anything to do with MKULTRA

but lets not act like our government is above doing such things. Do not underestimate the evilness of the suits that roam the halls of Washington.



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19 Dec 2012, 5:41 pm

1000Knives wrote:
Raptor wrote:
I'd take civil war even knowing that I'd likely die in it.
How's that saying go; "from my cold dead hands"?
:x


I'd move. f**k it. In Japan I'd probably be able to own a 12 gauge shotgun if I lived there long enough anyway. And I'd not have to worry about, you know, a war? Even now you know there's a lot of civil strife in the air when cops walk around in body armor and with M16s and have APCs. And we have Soviet gulag level incarceration rates. In that perspective, a civil war wouldn't be a massive change of pace in good ol' Insane Asylum America. Just part of the master plan to have some more "terror" attacks from a different enemy, and further erode the rights of the American people so they're dependent upon their government for everything.

The only reason the American Revolution was won was because the Founding Fathers had enough self interest and basically thought it'd be cool to lead a country. The founders were only interested in their own power, not justice. Ethan Allen, for example, was in negotiations to give Vermont back to Britain, with him being the governor. And then with the Whiskey Rebellion, we ended up with higher taxes than Britain imposed anyway. I doubt anything good would come out of a Third American Civil War if one happened.

You also put too much faith in the American people. They do not care about the future at all. How many Americans would find a cool libertarian land a place they wanna live? Probably less than 5% of the population. Most of the population, if not working, want Obamaphones and food stamps, and if working, want to buy new cars and flatscreen TVs and go to the mall, and don't care about anything else as long as they can have those things.

Lastly, arms does not guarantee successful revolution. Not in the slightest. The only thing that guarantees that is collective will of the people, which as I said, we don't have. In prisons in South America, prisoners have guns and explosives. But they're still in jail. Why? Because they're too busy fighting amongst themselves to fight against their captors. They concern themselves with the day to day prison politics and do not see the big picture. Things are designed this way. Nazi Germany worked that way, people were rounded up and put in prison, and people just went "well, not my problem, they probably did something bad anyway" and hey, Hitler made the trains run on time and made Germany rich and powerful, why not like that?

http://www.economist.com/node/21563288

Quote:
A fire begun during a fight between inmates at San Miguel prison in Santiago, Chile’s capital, in December 2010 killed 81 prisoners and injured 15. Survivors said a group of inmates used a homemade flame-thrower, fashioned from a hosepipe and a gas canister, to set fire to a mattress barricade erected by a rival group in their barred cell. San Miguel was not a high-security jail, and the victims of the worst prison fire in Chile’s history were all serving sentences of five years or less, for crimes such as pirating DVDs and burglary.


That is human nature.

I cannot imagine anything good coming from this Civil War scenario presented here, nothing at all but pain and misery.


Should civil war break out over gun confiscation, or even an AWB with no grandfather clause (chances of CW are slim though), I would TRY to emigrate out of the US and go to Canada. If I can't, well f*ck migration and pick up any recently criminalized assault rifle or weapon I can find and kill anyone who tries to kill me. In civil war anything goes, provided that it doesn't violate the Geneva Conventions, which may be broken a couple of times. I hope no CW breaks out over this (or any other issue), but I am willing to fight if I have no other choice.


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19 Dec 2012, 5:45 pm

IrishTusk wrote:
Am sorry but you Americans take your guns way too damn Seriously.

Admittedly if 90 out of a 100 people had guns in Northern Ireland we'd have our freedom by now.


I do acknowledge that a few people here and there are so defiant as to declare civil war, but there are reasons.

I found one. The Gun Free Zone Act of 1990 as it is now helped in the murder of 26 people in Newtown, CT.


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19 Dec 2012, 6:02 pm

As much as I wish I could show people who think they are somehow protecting freedom in the spirit of the second amendment with rifles how real wars are fought from the driver's seat of a tank, I very much doubt that an Australia-style gun-grab is going to happen in the USA.



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19 Dec 2012, 6:08 pm

NorthPark wrote:
1000Knives wrote:
Raptor wrote:
I'd take civil war even knowing that I'd likely die in it.
How's that saying go; "from my cold dead hands"?
:x


I'd move. f**k it. In Japan I'd probably be able to own a 12 gauge shotgun if I lived there long enough anyway. And I'd not have to worry about, you know, a war? Even now you know there's a lot of civil strife in the air when cops walk around in body armor and with M16s and have APCs. And we have Soviet gulag level incarceration rates. In that perspective, a civil war wouldn't be a massive change of pace in good ol' Insane Asylum America. Just part of the master plan to have some more "terror" attacks from a different enemy, and further erode the rights of the American people so they're dependent upon their government for everything.

The only reason the American Revolution was won was because the Founding Fathers had enough self interest and basically thought it'd be cool to lead a country. The founders were only interested in their own power, not justice. Ethan Allen, for example, was in negotiations to give Vermont back to Britain, with him being the governor. And then with the Whiskey Rebellion, we ended up with higher taxes than Britain imposed anyway. I doubt anything good would come out of a Third American Civil War if one happened.

You also put too much faith in the American people. They do not care about the future at all. How many Americans would find a cool libertarian land a place they wanna live? Probably less than 5% of the population. Most of the population, if not working, want Obamaphones and food stamps, and if working, want to buy new cars and flatscreen TVs and go to the mall, and don't care about anything else as long as they can have those things.

Lastly, arms does not guarantee successful revolution. Not in the slightest. The only thing that guarantees that is collective will of the people, which as I said, we don't have. In prisons in South America, prisoners have guns and explosives. But they're still in jail. Why? Because they're too busy fighting amongst themselves to fight against their captors. They concern themselves with the day to day prison politics and do not see the big picture. Things are designed this way. Nazi Germany worked that way, people were rounded up and put in prison, and people just went "well, not my problem, they probably did something bad anyway" and hey, Hitler made the trains run on time and made Germany rich and powerful, why not like that?

http://www.economist.com/node/21563288

Quote:
A fire begun during a fight between inmates at San Miguel prison in Santiago, Chile’s capital, in December 2010 killed 81 prisoners and injured 15. Survivors said a group of inmates used a homemade flame-thrower, fashioned from a hosepipe and a gas canister, to set fire to a mattress barricade erected by a rival group in their barred cell. San Miguel was not a high-security jail, and the victims of the worst prison fire in Chile’s history were all serving sentences of five years or less, for crimes such as pirating DVDs and burglary.


That is human nature.

I cannot imagine anything good coming from this Civil War scenario presented here, nothing at all but pain and misery.


Should civil war break out over gun confiscation, or even an AWB with no grandfather clause (chances of CW are slim though), I would TRY to emigrate out of the US and go to Canada. If I can't, well f*ck migration and pick up any recently criminalized assault rifle or weapon I can find and kill anyone who tries to kill me. In civil war anything goes, provided that it doesn't violate the Geneva Conventions, which may be broken a couple of times. I hope no CW breaks out over this (or any other issue), but I am willing to fight if I have no other choice.


The US hasn't been in a "war" in over 50 years. The Geneva is irrelevant now, because very rarely is an actual war declared. We can take over a country and install new leaders and call it a "police action." It will not be a "Civil War" in America, it will just be "civil unrest."

As far as going to Canada over an AWB with no grandfather clause. That's ret*d as all hell, as Canada has an AWB, too. Hell, Canada doesn't even really allow rifles with magazines over 5 rounds, here in USA at least the cap will be 10. The only positive thing about Canada is factory made short barreled shotguns are allowed, and you can buy cheap Norinco firearms as the NRA doesn't exist there to pander to the American gun industry and impose artificial import bans like exist here with 922r (want to import a foreign rifle, sure, just put 10 American made parts in, TO CREATE JOBS, YO!) You can buy a Norinco M14 in Canada for like $400, though. Only cool thing about Canadian gun laws is that, though. But yes, shooting people over a new AWB ban will surely go over well.. :roll:

I don't particularly think an AWB is on the table, though. I think likely it will be national licenses/registration, and possibly even a concession of national concealed carry permits and MAYBE a machine gun ban repeal given to the NRA. That's my opinion. This would be most publicly palatable, because the AWB's proven to not work in doing anything at all except put thumbhole stocks on some rifles. I think even Brady Campaign/etc, would choose national licensing over another AWB any day of the week. No guns would be taken away, per se. Just probably a good percentage of gun owners would be found ineligible, but the psychology would be that it's them at fault for not passing. See? And of course, if national CCW permit was on the table, odds are the NRA would even support such licensing system, as national CCW reciprocity is something they've been pushing for, and as the NRA does, it always compromises. And then if the NRA didn't fall for national CCW reciprocity, reversing the 1986 ban on new registrations of machine guns would surely be enough "compromise" for the NRA to endorse a national licensing and registration system. The machine gun ban actually came about from the NRA. The 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act, which was a repeal of parts of the 1968 Gun Control Act that again, the NRA supported, to make FOPA more passable, NRA pushed for the new machine gun ban to get more people to vote for it in Congress. So it wouldn't surprise me one bit, it getting repealed as part of the compromise.

That is my theory of what will happen. Unless of course Obama does want civil unrest. And maybe he does. But I'd like to think he probably doesn't. Maybe that is wishful thinking of me. But I think any future gun control would be along those lines. It'd be drastic, but not apparent, if that makes any sense. Instead of "We're taking all your AR-15s!" it'd be "I'm sorry sir, but you must relinquish your AR-15 because we feel that because you're on anti-depressants you could be dangerous to yourself or others, have a nice day."



NorthPark
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19 Dec 2012, 6:22 pm

1000Knives wrote:
NorthPark wrote:
1000Knives wrote:
Raptor wrote:
I'd take civil war even knowing that I'd likely die in it.
How's that saying go; "from my cold dead hands"?
:x


I'd move. f**k it. In Japan I'd probably be able to own a 12 gauge shotgun if I lived there long enough anyway. And I'd not have to worry about, you know, a war? Even now you know there's a lot of civil strife in the air when cops walk around in body armor and with M16s and have APCs. And we have Soviet gulag level incarceration rates. In that perspective, a civil war wouldn't be a massive change of pace in good ol' Insane Asylum America. Just part of the master plan to have some more "terror" attacks from a different enemy, and further erode the rights of the American people so they're dependent upon their government for everything.

The only reason the American Revolution was won was because the Founding Fathers had enough self interest and basically thought it'd be cool to lead a country. The founders were only interested in their own power, not justice. Ethan Allen, for example, was in negotiations to give Vermont back to Britain, with him being the governor. And then with the Whiskey Rebellion, we ended up with higher taxes than Britain imposed anyway. I doubt anything good would come out of a Third American Civil War if one happened.

You also put too much faith in the American people. They do not care about the future at all. How many Americans would find a cool libertarian land a place they wanna live? Probably less than 5% of the population. Most of the population, if not working, want Obamaphones and food stamps, and if working, want to buy new cars and flatscreen TVs and go to the mall, and don't care about anything else as long as they can have those things.

Lastly, arms does not guarantee successful revolution. Not in the slightest. The only thing that guarantees that is collective will of the people, which as I said, we don't have. In prisons in South America, prisoners have guns and explosives. But they're still in jail. Why? Because they're too busy fighting amongst themselves to fight against their captors. They concern themselves with the day to day prison politics and do not see the big picture. Things are designed this way. Nazi Germany worked that way, people were rounded up and put in prison, and people just went "well, not my problem, they probably did something bad anyway" and hey, Hitler made the trains run on time and made Germany rich and powerful, why not like that?

http://www.economist.com/node/21563288

Quote:
A fire begun during a fight between inmates at San Miguel prison in Santiago, Chile’s capital, in December 2010 killed 81 prisoners and injured 15. Survivors said a group of inmates used a homemade flame-thrower, fashioned from a hosepipe and a gas canister, to set fire to a mattress barricade erected by a rival group in their barred cell. San Miguel was not a high-security jail, and the victims of the worst prison fire in Chile’s history were all serving sentences of five years or less, for crimes such as pirating DVDs and burglary.


That is human nature.

I cannot imagine anything good coming from this Civil War scenario presented here, nothing at all but pain and misery.


Should civil war break out over gun confiscation, or even an AWB with no grandfather clause (chances of CW are slim though), I would TRY to emigrate out of the US and go to Canada. If I can't, well f*ck migration and pick up any recently criminalized assault rifle or weapon I can find and kill anyone who tries to kill me. In civil war anything goes, provided that it doesn't violate the Geneva Conventions, which may be broken a couple of times. I hope no CW breaks out over this (or any other issue), but I am willing to fight if I have no other choice.


The US hasn't been in a "war" in over 50 years. The Geneva is irrelevant now, because very rarely is an actual war declared. We can take over a country and install new leaders and call it a "police action." It will not be a "Civil War" in America, it will just be "civil unrest."

As far as going to Canada over an AWB with no grandfather clause. That's ret*d as all hell, as Canada has an AWB, too. Hell, Canada doesn't even really allow rifles with magazines over 5 rounds, here in USA at least the cap will be 10. The only positive thing about Canada is factory made short barreled shotguns are allowed, and you can buy cheap Norinco firearms as the NRA doesn't exist there to pander to the American gun industry and impose artificial import bans like exist here with 922r (want to import a foreign rifle, sure, just put 10 American made parts in, TO CREATE JOBS, YO!) You can buy a Norinco M14 in Canada for like $400, though. Only cool thing about Canadian gun laws is that, though. But yes, shooting people over a new AWB ban will surely go over well.. :roll:

I don't particularly think an AWB is on the table, though. I think likely it will be national licenses/registration, and possibly even a concession of national concealed carry permits and MAYBE a machine gun ban repeal given to the NRA. That's my opinion. This would be most publicly palatable, because the AWB's proven to not work in doing anything at all except put thumbhole stocks on some rifles. I think even Brady Campaign/etc, would choose national licensing over another AWB any day of the week. No guns would be taken away, per se. Just probably a good percentage of gun owners would be found ineligible, but the psychology would be that it's them at fault for not passing. See? And of course, if national CCW permit was on the table, odds are the NRA would even support such licensing system, as national CCW reciprocity is something they've been pushing for, and as the NRA does, it always compromises. And then if the NRA didn't fall for national CCW reciprocity, reversing the 1986 ban on new registrations of machine guns would surely be enough "compromise" for the NRA to endorse a national licensing and registration system. The machine gun ban actually came about from the NRA. The 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act, which was a repeal of parts of the 1968 Gun Control Act that again, the NRA supported, to make FOPA more passable, NRA pushed for the new machine gun ban to get more people to vote for it in Congress. So it wouldn't surprise me one bit, it getting repealed as part of the compromise.

That is my theory of what will happen. Unless of course Obama does want civil unrest. And maybe he does. But I'd like to think he probably doesn't. Maybe that is wishful thinking of me. But I think any future gun control would be along those lines. It'd be drastic, but not apparent, if that makes any sense. Instead of "We're taking all your AR-15s!" it'd be "I'm sorry sir, but you must relinquish your AR-15 because we feel that because you're on anti-depressants you could be dangerous to yourself or others, have a nice day."


I am aware that Canada has an awb of its own. I would only go there to temporarily escape civil war.....or try to. And then come back to America if the pro gun faction wins or something tells me to go fight.


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adb
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19 Dec 2012, 6:30 pm

Evinceo wrote:
As much as I wish I could show people who think they are somehow protecting freedom in the spirit of the second amendment with rifles how real wars are fought from the driver's seat of a tank, I very much doubt that an Australia-style gun-grab is going to happen in the USA.

No, real wars are not fought from the driver's seat of a tank or from the deck of a ship or from a bomber. Those are support roles for the people on the ground with small arms.



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19 Dec 2012, 6:43 pm

NorthPark wrote:
I am aware that Canada has an awb of its own. I would only go there to temporarily escape civil war.....or try to. And then come back to America if the pro gun faction wins or something tells me to go fight.


There will be no pro-gun faction. Assuming Obama plays this wrong and not how I said (mandatory licensing instead of banning gun models outright) and starts doing gun roundup type things, you know what people will do? Turn them in, that's what they'll do. The people who shoot ATF agents or some stupid s**t like that will be branded terrorists, and martial law like conditions will be declared. If anything, what people are describing in this thread, if it were to happen, will be done as a trigger for martial law conditions. Most people that own guns simply don't care about firearms too much, and simply do see them as just appliances, not as apart of their identity or national identity. Their want to drive a brand new car, have a flatscreen TV, and eat at McDonalds vastly overshadows their want to own a firearm. All the "freedom fighters" or "terrorists" would do is trigger martial law and general terribleness, and not accomplish anything. This is reality.

Anyway, the licensing seems more likely, as it wouldn't have as much potential to throw the nation into chaos. Law gets passed, say, 2013, then law says "By 2015 all firearms must be registered and owners licensed" or something to that effect, and people move on with their lives, and a bunch of guns are taken inconspicuously.



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19 Dec 2012, 6:51 pm

Think of it this way, there won't be 2 sides in another civil war, but more like 1000.

Don't think of another Civil War as anything similar to the first, think of it as a replay of the fall of Rome.


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19 Dec 2012, 7:03 pm

PM wrote:
Think of it this way, there won't be 2 sides in another civil war, but more like 1000.

Don't think of another Civil War as anything similar to the first, think of it as a replay of the fall of Rome.


I do like how in the Fallout they divided the USA into 13 Commonwealths, that was neat.



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19 Dec 2012, 8:31 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Giftorcurse wrote:
Surely, the fact that there have been four terrible shootings by "psychos" this year isn't reason enough to believe that we have a Manchurian Candidate situation on our hands. Ever hear of MKULTRA?

Grow up.


MKULTRA was a failed attempt by the CIA to create unconscious assassins for "wet work" during intelligence operations - not to shoot up schools, malls, or movie theaters.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I have no reason to believe these killings have anything to do with MKULTRA

but lets not act like our government is above doing such things. Do not underestimate the evilness of the suits that roam the halls of Washington.


Think Langley as the heart of darkness that had spawned schemes like MKULTRA, not Washington. And, while deaths may have occurred from the operation, they were not planned; while the whole idea of being able to brainwash someone, then turn them on to be an assassin later down the road in fact was never achievable.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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19 Dec 2012, 8:35 pm

A civil war? Unlikely. A sizeable percentage of Americans might be critically stupid, but I think the majority have enough brains to realise that they would lose and lose quickly.


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19 Dec 2012, 9:38 pm

If the Government enacted "laws" to confiscate weaponry, the majority of Americans would be entirely pissed and would ultimately rebel not against each other but the government. If the Government had any plans to implement/enforce the law, that's when the fighting would break out.
"Terrorist" activities would be commenced. Militias will be formed, people will go underground. Fight Guerrilla style.


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19 Dec 2012, 10:18 pm

I meant to reply no, but I read it wrong, so I replied very likely.

Americans don't give a damn about anything. We've already given up a lot of the rest of the bill of rights and nobody gives a damn. I don't see why gun control should cross the line.



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19 Dec 2012, 10:18 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Giftorcurse wrote:
Surely, the fact that there have been four terrible shootings by "psychos" this year isn't reason enough to believe that we have a Manchurian Candidate situation on our hands. Ever hear of MKULTRA?

Grow up.


MKULTRA was a failed attempt by the CIA to create unconscious assassins for "wet work" during intelligence operations - not to shoot up schools, malls, or movie theaters.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I have no reason to believe these killings have anything to do with MKULTRA

but lets not act like our government is above doing such things. Do not underestimate the evilness of the suits that roam the halls of Washington.


Think Langley as the heart of darkness that had spawned schemes like MKULTRA, not Washington. And, while deaths may have occurred from the operation, they were not planned; while the whole idea of being able to brainwash someone, then turn them on to be an assassin later down the road in fact was never achievable.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Tell that to Bobby Kennedy.



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19 Dec 2012, 10:25 pm

ShamelessGit wrote:
I meant to reply no, but I read it wrong, so I replied very likely.

Americans don't give a damn about anything. We've already given up a lot of the rest of the bill of rights and nobody gives a damn. I don't see why gun control should cross the line.


What I was trying to say in fewer words.