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Is America Truly a Christian Nation?

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Is America a Christian Nation?
Yes 9%  9%  [ 4 ]
It used to be, but isn't anymore 14%  14%  [ 6 ]
It never was 77%  77%  [ 34 ]
Total votes : 44

AspE
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29 Oct 2014, 9:58 am

danothan24 wrote:
...
Good question. It's tough, because I doubt that one has ever existed...to me, a Christian nation would be one that actually employs the values Jesus taught in it's policies. And honestly, when you look at Jesus's message (loving everybody, taking care of the weak and sick, viewing money and wealth as evil), the man was basically a socialist. No communism has ever worked because it's just too easy to corrupt, but IF anyone ever came up with a peaceful, functional, communal-based country, that'd be pretty Christian. Just having a nation that's not built on blood would be a good start. Come to think of it, Switzerland (largely stays out of war, is currently proposing a national basic income for every single citizen), could be seen as relatively Christian in it's practices.

As far as the USA comparing to it...we're a war-hungry country that uses one of the most Darwinian economies Man has ever come up with. When other countries call America "The Great Devil", I can see where they're coming from. Power and peace don't coincide, and we're very, very powerful.

Jesus approved of slavery.



kraftiekortie
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29 Oct 2014, 10:32 am

The US is PRIMARILY a Christian nation.

Sometimes, there's too much of an emphasis on "Christian this" and "Christian that"--especially amongst conservatives.

However, fortunately, Christianity is not the state religion.

And it will never become the state religion.



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29 Oct 2014, 12:10 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
... Christianity is not the state religion. And it will never become the state religion.

I thank God for that!

:wink:


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AdamK
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29 Oct 2014, 2:08 pm

Fnord wrote:
The simple point of the matter is that if people want America to become a "Christian" nation, they must (among other things):
  • Forget about physical evidence in criminal trials, for only the verbal testimony of two or more "witnesses" shall be needed - "At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death." (Deuteronomy 17:6, KJV)
  • Allow to be persecuted, anyone who speaks out against the Established Religious Order (The Crucifixion of Jesus - see the Four Gospels; and The Stoning of Stephen - Acts 6:9 through 7:60).
  • The buying, owning and selling of slaves (Deuteronomy 15:12-18).
  • The right of a man to sell his own daughter as a slave - "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do." (Deuteronomy 15:7).
  • Mandatory death sentences for murder - "He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death." (Deuteronomy 15:12).
  • Legally sanctioned revenge - "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." (Deuteronomy 15:24-25)
  • Mandatory death sentences for witchcraft - "You will not allow a witch to live" (Exodus 22:16 ... don't forget, it takes only two people to say "She's a witch!" for her to be convicted of witchcraft).
  • Mandatory death sentences for worshiping any one other than God - "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." (Exodus 22:20 ... all it takes is two witnesses, whether or no an actual sacrifice ever took place).
  • Mandatory death sentences for anyone who 'curses' his or her parents - "Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. Because they have cursed their father or mother, their blood will be on their own head." (Leviticus 20:9 ... what if the two parents, as witnesses, both lie and say that their unwanted Autistic son or daughter has 'cursed' them?).
  • Mandatory death sentences for homosexuality - "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (Leviticus 20:13).
Don't forget, that even though these are all "Old Testament" laws, they were still being practiced during the time of the early Christian church.

Welcome to Christian America.


It doesn't matter if they were still being practiced by the early Christian church (do you have historical evidence for that?) If the early Christian church did practice them then they failed to understand that they were no longer under the "Law." As St. Paul explains in the Book of Romans.



kraftiekortie
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29 Oct 2014, 5:43 pm

Christianity changes with time, obviously.

Now Pope Francis, a staunch Catholic, is saying that evolution is not inconsistent with Catholic teachings.



Fnord
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29 Oct 2014, 7:40 pm

AdamK wrote:
It doesn't matter if they were still being practiced by the early Christian church (do you have historical evidence for that?) If the early Christian church did practice them then they failed to understand that they were no longer under the "Law." As St. Paul explains in the Book of Romans.


Saul/Paul persecuted the early Christians for their beliefs; he was even present at the Stoning of Stephen. Saul/Paul also believed that women should not speak in church, and that it was better for people to remain both unmarried and celibate. I dismiss his "interpretations" with a backward wave of my hand.

The Laws of Moses dictated harsh treatment for heretics of the Temple (Jesus, Stephen) and prostitutes (John 8:1-11 ... but where was the man she was caught with?). Men and women were being bought and sold into slavery, as well.

But for the historical accounts, I suggest that you turn to the works of Josephus.


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AdamK
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30 Oct 2014, 6:25 am

Fnord wrote:
AdamK wrote:
It doesn't matter if they were still being practiced by the early Christian church (do you have historical evidence for that?) If the early Christian church did practice them then they failed to understand that they were no longer under the "Law." As St. Paul explains in the Book of Romans.


Saul/Paul persecuted the early Christians for their beliefs; he was even present at the Stoning of Stephen. Saul/Paul also believed that women should not speak in church, and that it was better for people to remain both unmarried and celibate. I dismiss his "interpretations" with a backward wave of my hand.

The Laws of Moses dictated harsh treatment for heretics of the Temple (Jesus, Stephen) and prostitutes (John 8:1-11 ... but where was the man she was caught with?). Men and women were being bought and sold into slavery, as well.

But for the historical accounts, I suggest that you turn to the works of Josephus.


Some of these are probabley good points, and I hate to look like I'm backing away from a fight as soon as you present good points. However, I am backing away from a fight. I said that I wouldn't disscuss this in this thread and I won't. I'm also concerned that I might let this get personal eventually and I'm not willing to do that. Count it as a victory if you wish, or don't. Your choice. I shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place. Anyway, sorry but I can't answer what you've said now and I won't be looking at this again. I've said what I have to say about America as a Christian nation.



andrethemoogle
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30 Oct 2014, 7:59 am

I wouldn't say the USA is a Christian nation. I would only define that say if it were the state religion, even though I don't think there should be one anywhere in the first place. In some places where there is one and there is no discrimination it's fine, but in others it is a major problem like in Saudi Arabia.



Fnord
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30 Oct 2014, 8:10 am

The trouble with having a "State Religion" is first deciding what form that religion will take. Should it be strict and harsh (like Islam), or free and supportive (like no religion known to Man)?

If we say, "America should be a Christian nation", then which Christian religion should it be?

Roman Catholic? Do we really want closet paedophiles running this country?

Jehovah's Witness, "Mormonism", Southern Baptist? Do we really want to return to racial segregation and abolish women's rights?

Presbyterian? How long are you willing to wait for legislation to get out of committee and be voted on?


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izzeme
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31 Oct 2014, 8:36 am

it never, ever was.

in fact, america was founded (well, declared independence) primarily to get free of the christian-based english.

the constitution (as far as i know it, i'm not american myself) states something along the lines of "America has no religious basis, and will not be ruled by religion, church or simular institution, nor will these have a say"

the US are based on freedom of religion and, by extention, freedom FROM religion. by having a secular government, all religious groups should be treated equally, since there aren't overlapping agendas



danothan24
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02 Nov 2014, 2:33 pm

AspE wrote:
Jesus approved of slavery.

Did he? I'm no biblical scholar so it's entirely possible I missed that passage, but it definitely doesn't gel with most of his messages.

The basic point I'm trying to make here is that in America we always throw around the term "Christian nation", but are values sure don't seem to reflect it. What's especially ironic is that it's the Right that always talks about it, yet they're the ones who are more favorable to war, guns, and tax breaks for the wealthiest. Meanwhile the Left, which supports social welfare for all, is often considered fairly Godless. It's just a staggering paradox to me. Thankfully, the poll shows me I'm far from the only one who's noticing this.


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AspE
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04 Nov 2014, 10:37 am

danothan24 wrote:
AspE wrote:
Jesus approved of slavery.

Did he? I'm no biblical scholar so it's entirely possible I missed that passage, but it definitely doesn't gel with most of his messages.

The basic point I'm trying to make here is that in America we always throw around the term "Christian nation", but are values sure don't seem to reflect it. What's especially ironic is that it's the Right that always talks about it, yet they're the ones who are more favorable to war, guns, and tax breaks for the wealthiest. Meanwhile the Left, which supports social welfare for all, is often considered fairly Godless. It's just a staggering paradox to me. Thankfully, the poll shows me I'm far from the only one who's noticing this.

My point is that Christian values aren't humanist values and we should be happy that we don't reflect them. It's time we abandoned the notion that being Christian equals being a good person.



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26 Nov 2014, 7:15 am

America is not, and has never been, a Christian Nation. If anything, it is built upon Deism. Now, Deism posits that there is a Creator, but does not credit any of the Sacred Texts-- or Holy Books-- with anything of value or truth.



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26 Nov 2014, 9:45 am

If by "christian" you mean "having a high number of pious people who go to church, and profess adherence to Christ" then obviously the US would be the most christian nation in the industrial world.

If by "Christian" you mean "living up to the ideals of Christ" then thats "something completely else" as Pogo would say.

There is a recent book ("The Bible Tells Me So"- something like that) that enumerates how Americans have always cited scripture to argue their opposite pov's on every contraversial issue in American history. Both patriots and loyalists in the Revolution would cite scripture, and both slaveowners, and abolitionists would cite scripture, ditto the labor movement, ditto the Civil Rights Movement, etc.

So we Americans ALWAYS have Christ on our side. Even when we oppose each other Christ favors both sides! So we MUST be a "Christian Nation".

Lol!



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27 Nov 2014, 8:03 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
danothan24 wrote:
We have the resources to EASILY feed, house, and clothe every single man, woman, and child in this country several times over.


America has the largest welfare programs in the world. That is why many people want to immigrate.

danothan24 wrote:
murdering brown people the world over is.


What ? What "brown people"? America kills white people? Iraq, Afghanistan ... and black people .... Somali and pirates


I have "brown people" in my family as in-laws and I know a lot of other "brown people" A higher percentage of them are working and not on welfare than the percentage of Americans I know of who are on welfare who did not immigrate. The "brown people" I know all work their tails off, outworking any native born American that I know. The "immigrants" that most flood our welfare system are refugees that are sponsored by Christian churches in the United States. Thank religion for that. we are displacing Muslims by the tens of thousands with our wars and when they get here they go right on welfare for the most part. Very few Asian or European immigrants are on welfare, proportional to Muslims. I pity any native born American unfortunate enough to have to do physical labor next to a Hispanic or Asian worker because they will make the most diligent amongst us look like slackers.



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27 Nov 2014, 9:26 am

drh1138 wrote:
Oh, and in response to the notion that we were ever a Christian nation, I'd point out that the Christo-deist god and Jesus get absolutely zero mention whatsoever in the entire Constitution. The sole "exception" being that the signatory section at the end does say "Year of our Lord 1787", but that's a custom of dating reference, NOT endorsement of belief.

In short, the US is not and never was a Christian, deist, or other theologically-based country.


The thing you're forgetting is that the founders were heavily influenced by the philosophy of classic libertarians like John Locke and others. This philosophy, unlike modern libertarianism, emphasized MORAL RESTRAINT.

To post my favorite Edmund Burke quote again:
Quote:
Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites, — in proportion as their love to justice is above their rapacity, — in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption, — in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist, unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.


So, the founders were pretty big on self regulation and moral restraint. And, Christian or not, their notions of morality (just like yours and mine) come largely from the judeo-christian ethical spectrum (minus a few progressive revisions concerning women, slaves, etc.).


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