Why the Ancient Alien Theory could be possible.
20 Nov 2014, 7:59 pm
Thats why the whole span of time prior to 3000 BC is called "Prehistory". It was prior to written records.
It just strikes me as silly that you're retroactively brow beating our ancestors for being illiterate (instead of praising them for inventing writing in the first place).
Obviously I am talking about written history, or hieroglyphics and not cave men who had no written language. No one is brow beating anyone. Being cognizant of shortcomings helps in avoiding them later.
Then why did you say "if we had kept better records we would know the exact date of the Ice Ages...."?
The first three ice ages were witnessed by extinct hominids like the Neanderthals. The last one ended 12 thousand years ago: during the cave man days.
It ended before agriculture- and it ended seven thousand years before the Sumerians invented writing.
So either you DID mean cavemen, or you have a really distorted idea when the Ice Age was (like someone who concludes that Shakespeare must've been influenced by Mike Nichols as a director). Lol!
Just think of all the trouble they would have saved us if they had kept records but I doubt modern men would believe what was there.
Kraichgauer
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20 Nov 2014, 8:27 pm
If you're referring to the story of Atlantis told to Solon by the Egyptians, then it should be pointed out that Solon had misunderstood the Egyptians about the passage of time since the catastrophic end of Atlantis. Rather than 15,500 years before, it was much more likely that Atlantis was a Minoan city destroyed by the volcanic blast at Thera in the late Bronze Age.
Atlantis was described as being outside the Pillars of Hercules, and as large as Europe and Asia combined. They had a main island base, it sank, which is how it looks when sea level is rising.
The Gods came from the west, and in Tassilli in Algeria are rock paintings of people wearing woven robes, wearing headbands of the cobra, dated 15,000 years ago. The art style is what would later be Egyptian.
Sea level had been rising, but 15,000 years ago only about half way. When the gods came the Nile did not have a delta, it ended in a waterfall coming out of a canyon. The gods settled up river. In the late stages of the flood, 10,000 years ago, the river became an inland sea.
This slowed it and started forming a delta, far upstream. The Geologic history dates match the coming of the gods story.
In our recent time, the rediscovered writings were viewed by Creationists, so they made all the dates fit their view of Biblical Creation.
The gods brought forms of art and writing that differ from the local productions. They also sourced new world tobacco, cocaine, jade, and only they held the secret of Oracalium.
Lots of things point to there being some truth to the stories, which we only have from second hand hearsay.
The Egyptians did revere the upper Nile, the valley of the Kings, which in their time was dry sand. They claimed the upper river as the birth place of Egypt. The geology of the delta and the now known sea level seems to back them up.
They did give rise to a superior culture that ruled for a long time.
There are actually pillars of Hercules all over the Mediterranean - including near Thera - it's just that the most famous ones today are located at the west end of that sea, near the Atlantic.
As far as prehistoric Egypt is concerned - I have no doubt that there had been catastrophes in the region of the Nile seen as acts of the gods, but I tend to be a believer in the theory of an Atlantean/Minoan civilization destroyed at Thera, and that the refugees from there, having been under Egyptian commercial and cultural influence for a long time, had gone to live in the Nile Valley.
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
20 Nov 2014, 8:28 pm
In my understanding: the magic number is 9000, not 15,500.
We only know Atlantis (as such) from Plato.
And Plato said he got the story from an earlier Greek named Solon.
And Plato said that Solon said that he got it from the folks in Egypt.
Solon said that the Egyptians said Atlantis sank "9000 years ago" which would date the event at 9600 BC.
But moderns investigators say that Solon mustve been confused about time units (like how a "billon" means a "1000 million" in the USA, but means "a million million" in the UK). And that the Egyptians mustve meant "900 years ago".
And it so happens that the Thera explosion which wiped out the Minoan civilization of Crete happened about 1500 BC (900 years before the time of Solon). So - problem solved! Atlantis is really Thera/Crete.
Except for one thing.
The problem is that ( according to a National Geographic article aboutThera archeology) there is an Egyptian royal tomb with inscriptions refering to a legendary lost land. And the tomb was made in 2000 BC (before the Thera Eruption).
So the tale of a place like Atlantis was apparently already current in Egypt before the Thera event. The Greek version of the story might be a conflation of memories the destruction of Crete with Egyptian tales (created out of whole cloth?, or memories of real events even more ancient than the Thera explosion?).
If you go with the 9000 figure- then Atlantis sank in 9600 BC. That date coincides with the melting of the glaciers at the end of the last Ice Age. So its tempting to conclude that the tale is an actual memory of the global havoc created by floods from melting glaciers. But its hard to believe that preliterate mesolithinc, and neolithic, peoples could retain memories of events for that length of time.
Kraichgauer
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Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
20 Nov 2014, 8:34 pm
We only know Atlantis (as such) from Plato.
And Plato said he got the story from an earlier Greek named Solon.
And Plato said that Solon said that he got it from the folks in Egypt.
Solon said that the Egyptians said Atlantis sank "9000 years ago" which would date the event at 9600 BC.
But moderns investigators say that Solon mustve been confused about time units (like how a "billon" means a "1000 million" in the USA, but means "a million million" in the UK). And that the Egyptians mustve meant "900 years ago".
And it so happens that the Thera explosion which wiped out the Minoan civilization of Crete happened about 1500 BC (900 years before the time of Solon). So - problem solved! Atlantis is really Thera/Crete.
Except for one thing.
The problem is that ( according to a National Geographic article aboutThera archeology) there is an Egyptian royal tomb with inscriptions refering to a legendary lost land. And the tomb was made in 2000 BC (before the Thera Eruption).
So the tale of a place like Atlantis was apparently already current in Egypt before the Thera event. The Greek version of the story might be a conflation of memories the destruction of Crete with Egyptian tales (created out of whole cloth?, or memories of real events even more ancient than the Thera explosion?).
If you go with the 9000 figure- then Atlantis sank in 9600 BC. That date coincides with the melting of the glaciers at the end of the last Ice Age. So its tempting to conclude that the tale is an actual memory of the global havoc created by floods from melting glaciers. But its hard to believe that preliterate mesolithinc, and neolithic, peoples could retain memories of events for that length of time.
I had not heard about that Egyptian tomb inscription till now. Do you know of a link by which I could read up on it?
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
20 Nov 2014, 8:44 pm
So we can assume even when there is some story about a lost civilization it won't be believed unless there is scientific proof.
I am mostly interested in what it takes to keep history alive and accurate, not what part of history is real or not. We can do nothing about the past but can work on preserving what is going on now for the future so they can have confidence what they hear, see or read is factual and a good representation of reality and how to preserve this record if something like an asteroid or other worldwide calamity were to occur.
20 Nov 2014, 8:58 pm
To: Kraishgauer.
Thats a good question. Wish I had a good answer. It was a hard copy magazine I read sometime in the Nineties. Just one little mention the article made at the end of a big article about the digging theyre doing in the Aegean.
I was thinking about searching for it on the web myself- now that you all got me excited about the subject.
Kraichgauer
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Posts: 47,795
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
20 Nov 2014, 9:31 pm
Thats a good question. Wish I had a good answer. It was a hard copy magazine I read sometime in the Nineties. Just one little mention the article made at the end of a big article about the digging theyre doing in the Aegean.
I was thinking about searching for it on the web myself- now that you all got me excited about the subject.
Let me know if you find anything.
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
20 Nov 2014, 9:42 pm
I am mostly interested in what it takes to keep history alive and accurate, not what part of history is real or not. We can do nothing about the past but can work on preserving what is going on now for the future so they can have confidence what they hear, see or read is factual and a good representation of reality and how to preserve this record if something like an asteroid or other worldwide calamity were to occur.
Absolutely.
Its more the way you said it- than what you said- that strikes my funnybone.
Even without asteroids hitting its already a struggle to preserve the past- both ancient and the recent. Just one example: a magazine writer complained about how the concentration camps in eastern Europe (like Auswitz) are falling apart from neglect. For a moment I wondered why someone would care about upkeeping Aushwitz- but then you remember how even now there is an industry of Holocaust deniers. So the memory of what happened needs to be preserved for the centuries to come. Kind of a headache. But it is something to think about.
20 Nov 2014, 9:52 pm
Well, I think I can speak for all of WP by hoping you get better.
Thanks. I won't really get better, but I can have more good days than bad and that's what I hope for.
Good luck.
Thanks
_________________
Still looking for that blue jean baby queen, prettiest girl I've ever seen.
20 Nov 2014, 9:53 pm
Well, I think I can speak for all of WP by hoping you get better.
Thanks. I won't really get better, but I can have more good days than bad and that's what I hope for.
Gosh!
Hope that you can reasonably keep on keeping on.
Sounds like Lupus (not to pry).
Good luck.
It's Ankylosing Spondylitis, and thanks
_________________
Still looking for that blue jean baby queen, prettiest girl I've ever seen.
20 Nov 2014, 10:02 pm
Well, don't believe a word they say on Ancient Aliens. They fill it to the brim with blatantly false information.|
Whenever they say something along the lines of "This is a granite(or sometimes dolerite) block that weighs 5000 lbs. The stone would have to be carried over [insert massive distance] We don't know they carved it or moved it."
Well, I've noticed that whenever they make a claim like that, the stone is almost always sandstone and also actually only weighs 2500-3000 lbs. Not to mention they know exactly which quarry where it came from which tends to only be a few hundred meters away or less, have thousands of specimens of stone carving tools, descriptions of how they moved and carved the stones.
Sure, for several of the archeological sites we are blurry on some of the details, for the majority of the ones we know how it was built. They distort and falsify information to deceive you for ratings sake.
21 Nov 2014, 5:18 pm
Humans do not have much history.
There is a potential for more, but you have to wait.
Flood stories, over the last 30,000 years have been two waves of ice, the first lowered sea level 330 foot, the second 450 foot, then the ice melted. It was not slow and even, one summer the sea rose 60 foot. Where I live that would put me 55 foot under.
Also when the ice melted it did so from the top, forming lakes, several miles up, and when they broke loose, Lake Agazzi forming the scablands, as it flowed to the sea. This happened all over.
A second cause, God throws rocks. It seems on a 26,000 year cycle. when things like Barringer Crater in Arizona, another in India, but the odds are four out of five hit the ocean.
The last ice age seems to have ended after a strike in Mauitania, a crater equal to Barrigner, but there is a marine deposit all along the Atlantic Coast going way up into the mountains. It would take a wave several miles high to reach that far. We might find out, it has been 26,000 years.
People like the beach, and 450 foot down was the old beach. The most recent flood started 20,000 years ago. By 10,000 it had reached almost current levels. Durning this time is when the Egyptians told Salon that The Gods came from the west. 15,500 years ago. They were a skilled people. They brought writing, and some engraved stone tablets have been brought up in fishing nets.
So wait for the next ice age and go look.
A minor hundred foot wave would run right over Florida, and most of the east coast population is right along the beach. It can all be gone in an hour.
When Mount Thera blew up, the wave reached 600 foot along the shores of the eastern Med. It flooded the Nile Delta. 1543 BC.
Geologic Time does seem slow to short lived species, but it keeps on ticking.
It is also time for the New Madrid Quake, which is huge and regular. The last time from the Mississippi river it rang church bells in Washington and Boston.
The West Coast is just Doomed!
These Survivor Guilt stories about the good people being warned and told to build a Winnabago are just lies to tell the children, why you lived when millions died.
Blind luck has a lot more to do with it than Darwin.
Humans are also filthy, and Plague Farms waiting to happen. The Plague of Justinian killed a third of the people on earth.
H. G. Wells had it right, aliens would be killed by the common cold.
Have you noticed that big rocks lighting up the sky are becoming more common?
If humans were good record keepers, we would all know the exact dates of the ice ages, the lowering, the melting, the rising and the floods. We would know what the asteroids wiped out and what it was like before it hit. We would know if any ancient civilizations succumbed and the exact locations and dates. Humans have, thus far, been terrible record keepers what with unpredictable forces inside humanity destroying valuable information on whims such as capricious rulers and religious clergy. What is left are mostly predictions and calendars peppered with tales of gods and future apocalypse. Prophecy, basically.
Whether our current civilization manages to do better remains to be seen. One hit by a good enough sized asteroid, if any human survived, would set them back thousands of years and it could take quite some time to get back to where we are now, if it ever happened. Progress is not linear.
You know what would require you to be a good record keeper? Traveling across the galaxy from one inhabitable planet to the next. Btw, you still haven't said anything to contend with the fossil record. Saying "record keeping", "record keeping", "record keeping" has nothing to do with the fossil record.
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There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib
23 Nov 2014, 11:07 am
I notice you keep dodging my concerns which are centered around people keeping accurate enough records, and are believable and reliable enough observers, the fossil record results are either, somehow, included in the history or not needed for the history. Fossil records are more difficult than just simply reading something. The records people have kept up until just recently are sketchy at best and always treated as if they are not entirely true.
23 Nov 2014, 11:52 am
Troy, Sodom and Gommorah would be still considered mythical if it weren't for someone actually going and finding them.
So, extrapolating from that there must be loads of lost history.
See what Plato has to say about Solon's experiences with the Egyptian Priests
The fact is, that wherever the extremity of winter frost or of summer does not prevent, mankind exist, sometimes in greater, sometimes in lesser numbers. And whatever happened either in your country or in ours, or in any other region of which we are informed-if there were any actions noble or great or in any other way remarkable, they have all been written down by us of old, and are preserved in our temples. Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided with letters and the other requisites of civilized life, after the usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a pestilence, comes pouring down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters and education; and so you have to begin all over again like children, and know nothing of what happened in ancient times, either among us or among yourselves.
23 Nov 2014, 2:59 pm
You're arguing about the historicity of the Bible, but AAT isn't skeptical, at all. It accepts every last claim, from every single religion, no matter how trivial, yet shows no particular regard as to moral authority.
Without guessing about the motivations of it's adherents, I felt that 'cosmic humanism' was a baby step from Luciferianism, which teaches enlightened self interest as the means to empowerment.
I think that, hidden within AAT, is a victimhood narrative.
In the antediluvians, Sodomites, extinct races of the Old Testament, and End Times civilization, you see these utopias and golden eras -- ruined by some jealous, nepotist, vindictive force. Luciferians, Theosophists, and Judeo-Christians alike, know it as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
AAT is priming the public discourse for a kind of indictment.
For instance, where would mankind be, at this point, had the languages not been confused at Babel.
23 Nov 2014, 8:05 pm
So, extrapolating from that there must be loads of lost history.
See what Plato has to say about Solon's experiences with the Egyptian Priests
The fact is, that wherever the extremity of winter frost or of summer does not prevent, mankind exist, sometimes in greater, sometimes in lesser numbers. And whatever happened either in your country or in ours, or in any other region of which we are informed-if there were any actions noble or great or in any other way remarkable, they have all been written down by us of old, and are preserved in our temples. Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided with letters and the other requisites of civilized life, after the usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a pestilence, comes pouring down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters and education; and so you have to begin all over again like children, and know nothing of what happened in ancient times, either among us or among yourselves.
Interesting.
The Parthenon is 24 centuries old. But when it was newly built the Pyramids of Giza were already 24 centuries old.
To the Egyptians the Greeks were a bunch of feckless youths with no memory.
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