Asian American Sues Harvard for Racial Discrimination

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LoveNotHate
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20 Nov 2014, 8:55 am

A group called, 'Students for Fair Admissions', is representing an Asian-American student who was denied admission to Harvard university despite:

- being valedictorian of a competitive high school that is ranked in the top 5% in the country,
- achieving a perfect ACT score
- a perfect score of 800 on two of the SAT II subject exams in both Math and History
- participating in numerous extracurricular and volunteer activities
- ranked #1 in GPA (grade point average) out of 460 students

The group is suing Harvard, and the University of North Carolina, alleging that the universities prefer diversity to admit Hispanic and Black students over better qualified Asian applicants. They allege the practice is racial discrimination. They charge this practice is a violation of Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

The universities defended their practice by saying it complies with the law, and they look for "a wide-range of differences: background, ideas, experiences, talents and aspirations," according to Robert Iuliano, Harvard's general counsel.

Should universities be "color blind"? Before you answer, consider a college with no diversity policy like the University of California:

African-Americans represent 4 percent of UC students; they are nearly 7 percent of the state population.
Whites make up of 24 percent of UC students; they are about 39 percent of the state population
Latinos make up 28 percent of UC freshmen in 2013; they are about 38 percent of the state population
American Indians are less than 1 percent of UC students, they are nearly 2 percent of the state population
Asian-Americans comprise 40 percent of students; they are about 14 percent of the state population.

Asian Americans are the largest immigrant group to the U.S., so conceivably they will push out everyone else.

sources:
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/ ... cies-video
http://studentsforfairadmissions.org/wp ... plaint.pdf
http://www.scpr.org/blogs/multiamerican ... ve-action/



The_Walrus
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20 Nov 2014, 10:17 am

Yes, they should. Admissions should be based primarily on merit. It doesn't help students if they are admitted above their ability.

I can see some cases where it may be appropriate to reward potential ahead of raw achievement, but this should be based on, for example, progress in the last two years or achievement relative to classmates, not directly on race, class or other such factors.



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20 Nov 2014, 1:19 pm

In the past many American universities had quotas on Jews, many of whom had to go to Europe to study. That this is still happening today is disgusting. I can't imagine being rejected by a university just because of my ethnicity.
Also, you called them immigrants, but Asian Americans are not nessecarily more/less immigrant than European Americans. It didn't say in the article whether these people were immigrants themselves.
Maybe some cultures place a higher value on education.



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20 Nov 2014, 10:43 pm

Well, no wonder there are so many Asians at the University of California, they can actually get in.

Asian Americans have to meet a higher standard than any other demographic to get into college. An Asian American who performs just as well as a White or Black or Hispanic student can't go to most college while everyone else of equal academic standing can. It isn't fair or just.
It is discrimination.



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21 Nov 2014, 12:21 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Yes, they should. Admissions should be based primarily on merit. It doesn't help students if they are admitted above their ability.

I can see some cases where it may be appropriate to reward potential ahead of raw achievement, but this should be based on, for example, progress in the last two years or achievement relative to classmates, not directly on race, class or other such factors.




The problem with this is, if you're black or latino you are MUCH more likely to live in poverty and go to a bad/under funded school. So, there does need to be some sort of leveling...

Having said that, I believe racial preferences are counterproductive and actually cause more harm than good--there's the perception that a minority student is less qualified, whether it's true or not, etc.

I think preferences based on economic/class factors would be a better solution. Also, Texas, of all places, actually has a good alternative approach too. There, if you graduate in the top 5% of your class, you get an automatic admission to the state university of your choice. That has the effect of balancing admissions without selecting for race or class since high schools in Texas are already segrageted by race and class.


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21 Nov 2014, 12:36 am

Protogenoi wrote:
Well, no wonder there are so many Asians at the University of California, they can actually get in.

Asian Americans have to meet a higher standard than any other demographic to get into college. An Asian American who performs just as well as a White or Black or Hispanic student can't go to most college while everyone else of equal academic standing can. It isn't fair or just.
It is discrimination.


So, what are you basing that on?

There are a lot of Asian students and faculty at my school, certainly a higher percentage than in the surrounding community.


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21 Nov 2014, 5:59 am

GoonSquad wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Yes, they should. Admissions should be based primarily on merit. It doesn't help students if they are admitted above their ability.

I can see some cases where it may be appropriate to reward potential ahead of raw achievement, but this should be based on, for example, progress in the last two years or achievement relative to classmates, not directly on race, class or other such factors.




The problem with this is, if you're black or latino you are MUCH more likely to live in poverty and go to a bad/under funded school. So, there does need to be some sort of leveling...

Having said that, I believe racial preferences are counterproductive and actually cause more harm than good--there's the perception that a minority student is less qualified, whether it's true or not, etc.

I think preferences based on economic/class factors would be a better solution. Also, Texas, of all places, actually has a good alternative approach too. There, if you graduate in the top 5% of your class, you get an automatic admission to the state university of your choice. That has the effect of balancing admissions without selecting for race or class since high schools in Texas are already segrageted by race and class.

There doesn't need to be levelling...

People assuming that sending black kids off to Harvard will reduce racial inequality. There isn't really any evidence for that. Send someone to a university full of smart people who have had better educations to date and they're likely to struggle relative to classmates. Send them to a good university that they have actually done well enough to get in to, they'll perform well and will ultimately achieve better outcomes than they would if they flailed around in the Ivy League.

The best performing students at ordinary American universities outperform the worst performers at the best institutions.



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21 Nov 2014, 11:31 am

The_Walrus wrote:
There doesn't need to be levelling...

People assuming that sending black kids off to Harvard will reduce racial inequality. There isn't really any evidence for that. Send someone to a university full of smart people who have had better educations to date and they're likely to struggle relative to classmates. Send them to a good university that they have actually done well enough to get in to, they'll perform well and will ultimately achieve better outcomes than they would if they flailed around in the Ivy League.

The best performing students at ordinary American universities outperform the worst performers at the best institutions.




Well, I think you're being a bit too extreme here. Nobody is talking about admitting people who are totally unqualified academically simply on the basis of skin color.

However, if you have two applicants with comparable/acceptable SAT scores, there's nothing wrong with giving an edge to the student of color in the interests of diversity/leveling.

Hell, the truth is, legacies get a huge boost in the admissions process regardless of academic performance, and most do just fine. The idea that Ivy League schools are so much more academically rigorous is largely hype. And the truth is, when you get down to it, C's make degrees...


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21 Nov 2014, 11:40 am

GoonSquad wrote:
Protogenoi wrote:
Well, no wonder there are so many Asians at the University of California, they can actually get in.

Asian Americans have to meet a higher standard than any other demographic to get into college. An Asian American who performs just as well as a White or Black or Hispanic student can't go to most college while everyone else of equal academic standing can. It isn't fair or just.
It is discrimination.


So, what are you basing that on?

There are a lot of Asian students and faculty at my school, certainly a higher percentage than in the surrounding community.

http://blog.priceonomics.com/post/48794 ... nst-asians

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... e-1.986416

https://chronicle.com/article/Asian-Ame ... ws/131729/



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21 Nov 2014, 12:03 pm

Here's a quote from your first link:

Quote:
Their data indicates that Asians needed higher standard test scores than whites to get accepted to top schools in 1997, but this doesn?t consider other parts of a ?holistic? admissions process such as athletic prowess, legacy status (being the child of an alum), or quality of admissions essays and recommendation letters.


The thing is, how much more than brilliant really matters?

If everyone is great academically, you need to offer other things too.

You need to be a brilliant student AND a great athlete, OR musician, OR something.


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21 Nov 2014, 12:10 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
If everyone is great academically, you need to offer other things too.

You need to be a brilliant student AND a great athlete, OR musician, OR something.


Just point out: The student cited above played varsity tennis, not that he planned to show off his tennis skills at Harvard.

And if as you say, students have equal brilliance, then won't they strive to perfect whatever other criteria you invent? So they will all play an instrument, play a sport too ?



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21 Nov 2014, 12:33 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
If everyone is great academically, you need to offer other things too.

You need to be a brilliant student AND a great athlete, OR musician, OR something.


Note: The student cited above played varsity tennis, not that he planned to show off his tennis skills at Harvard.


Well, that might actually be a problem.

I just got accepted to a very competitive professional program at my university (actually, if I'd known how competitive it was when I changed majors, I probably woudn't have attempeted it--it's been an extremely stressful 6 weeks waiting for a decision).

My grades are almost perfect (marred by two Bs in spanish), and my interviewer said I had the best admissions essay she's ever read. BUT, my admission is conditional right now, contingent upon my completion of a community volunteer requirement that I've been unable to satisfy up to now because of health problems...

It ain't just about grades.


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21 Nov 2014, 6:02 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
If everyone is great academically, you need to offer other things too.

You need to be a brilliant student AND a great athlete, OR musician, OR something.


Note: The student cited above played varsity tennis, not that he planned to show off his tennis skills at Harvard.


Well, that might actually be a problem.

I just got accepted to a very competitive professional program at my university (actually, if I'd known how competitive it was when I changed majors, I probably woudn't have attempeted it--it's been an extremely stressful 6 weeks waiting for a decision).

My grades are almost perfect (marred by two Bs in spanish), and my interviewer said I had the best admissions essay she's ever read. BUT, my admission is conditional right now, contingent upon my completion of a community volunteer requirement that I've been unable to satisfy up to now because of health problems...

It ain't just about grades.


It should be only about talent for the field they study. Sports, race and other stuff should not come into it at all. Scientists don't discover Higgs bosons by being non-Asian or being a nice volunteer.



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23 Nov 2014, 1:15 am

My gut reaction is merit only, but....who decides and how do they decide what constitutes merit?



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23 Nov 2014, 1:41 pm

trollcatman wrote:
It should be only about talent for the field they study. Sports, race and other stuff should not come into it at all. Scientists don't discover Higgs bosons by being non-Asian or being a nice volunteer.


The university experience is about more than just prep for work. It's about prep for life...

I won't defend racial quotas, but I will maintain, when EVERYONE is brilliant, you need to bring something else to break the tie.

Everybody cannot go to Harvard...


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