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SignOfLazarus
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21 Nov 2014, 9:07 am

I've made the point before that responses to harassment are not always so simple to interpret- sometimes it is actually safer to not challenge it because it can be very dangerous to argue, challenge, disagree, or explicitly state that you want to be left alone. So the only other option is often demonstrating passive disinterest or at times "being polite" because EVEN passive disinterest is enough to elevate the situation. Then it becomes the victim's fault because they "didn't explicitly state" that they did not want to be endlessly hit on, talked about, approached, catcalled, looked over again and again, etc etc etc, though the alternative might have induced greater harm to them.
---

This is what I get scared might happen, honestly, because there is no way to know it won't.

Quote:
Daniela Saavedra, a friend, said that the group had passed the man twice before and that he had catcalled Schwartz's girlfriend each time. "

All he said was, 'Can you please just stop?'" Saavedra said. "The man then sort of trailed behind them, and that's when he attacked."

The man stabbed Schwartz nine times in the back, face, neck and arms, puncturing a lung, Saavedra said. She said gashes on his arms required about 60 stitches each, while the cuts to his back just missed his spinal cord.

-Man stabbed for asking someone to stop catcalling his girlfriend.

Also:
ABC News San Francisco



Uprising
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21 Nov 2014, 12:47 pm

It takes quite an overinflated ego to catcall random girls on the street so it's no surprise that they also easily resort to violence, or in this case, murder attempts.

Where there's smoke, there's fire.



rdos
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21 Nov 2014, 2:56 pm

Cat-calling should be illegal.



jwfess
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21 Nov 2014, 7:02 pm

rdos wrote:
Cat-calling should be illegal.


Maybe but what exactly defines a cat-call? In the US we have freedom of speech, I don't think it should be illegal to communicate your opinion to someone else.



kraftiekortie
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21 Nov 2014, 7:06 pm

If you make fun of a person's race, creed, etc in the street, you could be charged with harassment. If a group surrounds a person in the street, they could get arrested for menacing.

What part of NYC do you live, Jwfess?

I live in Queens Village.



jwfess
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21 Nov 2014, 8:06 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
If you make fun of a person's race, creed, etc in the street, you could be charged with harassment. If a group surrounds a person in the street, they could get arrested for menacing.

What part of NYC do you live, Jwfess?

I live in Queens Village.


I'm not to far. A couple villages over in Nassau County.

And yes, there are obviously limits on freedom of speech. But that's why I'm interested in what defines a catcall. From what I've read, some people think a compliment constitutes a catcall, which it can be, but it certainly depends on the delivery.



Jono
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23 Nov 2014, 7:55 am

jwfess wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
If you make fun of a person's race, creed, etc in the street, you could be charged with harassment. If a group surrounds a person in the street, they could get arrested for menacing.

What part of NYC do you live, Jwfess?

I live in Queens Village.


I'm not to far. A couple villages over in Nassau County.

And yes, there are obviously limits on freedom of speech. But that's why I'm interested in what defines a catcall. From what I've read, some people think a compliment constitutes a catcall, which it can be, but it certainly depends on the delivery.


People don't normally compliment random strangers on the street.



CynicalWaffle
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23 Nov 2014, 9:30 am

They do it in places like New York.

Even people who look like me get catcalls walking through bad areas of New York. Or California. Or even my home state. (note: I'm a dude)



rdos
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23 Nov 2014, 9:37 am

jwfess wrote:
rdos wrote:
Cat-calling should be illegal.


Maybe but what exactly defines a cat-call? In the US we have freedom of speech, I don't think it should be illegal to communicate your opinion to someone else.


In general I agree, but we cannot have some types of contact being legal and other types illegal, so therefore I propose that all types of contact must be negotiated in writing before it takes place. Kind of a contract for making contact. :mrgreen:



Venger
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23 Nov 2014, 2:03 pm

Uprising wrote:
It takes quite an overinflated ego to catcall random girls on the street so it's no surprise that they also easily resort to violence, or in this case, murder attempts.

Where there's smoke, there's fire.


And people who do that are probably intoxicated a lot of the time too. They think they're way more bad-azz while drunk just like every other person in the world.

It's probably a combination of one or both of those factors most of the time.



TeaEarlGreyHot
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23 Nov 2014, 2:24 pm

Venger wrote:
Uprising wrote:
It takes quite an overinflated ego to catcall random girls on the street so it's no surprise that they also easily resort to violence, or in this case, murder attempts.

Where there's smoke, there's fire.


And people who do that are probably intoxicated a lot of the time too. They think they're way more bad-azz while drunk just like every other person in the world.

It's probably a combination of one or both of those factors most of the time.


The only thing a catcaller requires is a sense of entitlement to women. These aren't obnoxious drunks, they're every day men that feel they are entitled to women in some way. That's why they often get violent when challenged.


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Venger
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23 Nov 2014, 2:34 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Venger wrote:
Uprising wrote:
It takes quite an overinflated ego to catcall random girls on the street so it's no surprise that they also easily resort to violence, or in this case, murder attempts.

Where there's smoke, there's fire.


And people who do that are probably intoxicated a lot of the time too. They think they're way more bad-azz while drunk just like every other person in the world.

It's probably a combination of one or both of those factors most of the time.


The only thing a catcaller requires is a sense of entitlement to women. These aren't obnoxious drunks, they're every day men that feel they are entitled to women in some way. That's why they often get violent when challenged.


Yep, the people often most prone-to-violence are ones with already huge-egos, combined with alcohol on top of it. Obviously doesn't mean they drink all the time either.



TeaEarlGreyHot
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23 Nov 2014, 2:40 pm

I'm saying plenty of men that don't drink at all catcall. This isn't a problem fueled by alcohol. This is a problem fueled by the societal view that women are public property.


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23 Nov 2014, 2:44 pm

^^^
Yeah I'm sure some that do it every once in awhile don't drink. But if you think about it "cat-calling" sounds like stereotypical intoxicated behavior whether they actually are or not.

Fake people have a tendency to "say what they're really thinking" while drunk for one thing.



TeaEarlGreyHot
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23 Nov 2014, 3:11 pm

Venger wrote:
^^^
Yeah I'm sure some that do it every once in awhile don't drink. But if you think about it "cat-calling" sounds like stereotypical intoxicated behavior whether they actually are or not.

Fake people have a tendency to "say what they're really thinking" while drunk for one thing.


Oh my god... you can't possibly be this dense. Alcohol has nothing to do with catcalling. The problem comes from men's warped views of entitlement. Alcohol isn't the problem, and labeling catcalling 'drunken behavior' only creates an excuse for the behavior. It's unacceptable, whether the dude's been drinking or not.


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SignOfLazarus
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23 Nov 2014, 3:21 pm

I don't actually believe that alcohol is a factor the majority of the time because alcohol reduces inhibitions- it does not create volition out of thin air.

...but let's say it is a driving force behind the vast majority of cat calling and escalated situations?
That doesn't really change the fact that it is a pervasive problem whether alcohol is a huge factor or not- it still happens frequently, it's still most often a form of intimidation, it can still often escalate into a dangerous situation. So the fact that alcohol may or may not be involved is pretty much as relevant as saying that like, people who wear the color green are more or less likely to instigate this kind of behavior. People are going to continue to wear the color green and as far as I know the color green will not be across the board outlawed everywhere.

I mean, ideally it would give some clue as to how to stop it, but alcohol is prevalent in various parts of the world and beyond that- intimidation of this nature [and worse] occurs in countries where alcohol is strictly forbidden, so I'm not sure the theory stands up.

Saying alcohol is to blame is a really simple way to look at the problem. The people who do it are to blame and the culture that perpetuates it is to blame- that includes anyone who looks the other way by saying the individuals instigating these acts are not actually responsible.


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