Cat-calling is harmless flattery...

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In my 45 years of living, I don't think I have ever heard a man catcall a women. I didn't realize that stuff actually happened. I guess I do live rather isolated.

Ok.. no problem.. thanks... :)

I don't know who Laci Green is. If you are lumping me in with feminists, I'm not sure why. If you aren't, I have no idea why you mention you have feminist friends as no feminists have been brought up in this thread.

If the OP refers to me, you clearly have an opinion. If the OP refers to Laci Green on youtube, you clearly have an opinion.
If you want to say something, you should actually say it- since you already have. Rather than "say it but not say it"- which is completely ridiculous. That whole nonsense "I have something to say but I know better than to say it" is not a way out of having responsibility for saying something, because you actually did say something.

Given that you had to go through several steps for that to actually end up on the internet, it didn't exactly slip out, either.

No. I did not truncate your first post SPECIFICALLY for misunderstanding.
Yes I absolutely did it because there are specific reasons I do not want to respond to what you put your first post, and I am fine with you not taking me seriously.

This is your first post:




-You said that *I KNOW* that I was making a strawman argument [nope. I know/knew no such thing].

Since you claimed to know what I knew, and are telling me that I am not showing you courtesy that I showed someone else- who did not interact with me in the same way- I have no reason to want to engage in debate with you. Why do I care if you take me seriously if you make a statement telling me what I am doing, or informing me of what I "know"?

I don't know if this is a small thing for you or not. But it is not for me, and I am under no obligation to continue to debate or discuss something if I feel the other person is going to make declarations about what they presume I understand or don't, know or don't know.

And if, for example, CynicalWaffle felt I made that misstep with them? If they thought I was telling them that's what they were doing [is it? you tell me]. They have every right to challenge me on that, to choose to cease discourse, to tell me I am wrong, all of the above. But you are not CynicalWaffle and I was under the impression they could speak for themselves. I could be mistaken.

I am explaining myself here, but neither of us is necessarily obligated to do so.
Hope that clarifies the misunderstanding.

Like online?

It always makes me think of primates screeching from the tree tops,sort of a primitive way to get attention.

She's fun.

https://www.youtube.com/user/lacigreen

I don't 100% agree with all of her views, but I have one friend who thinks she walks on water. She is actually a sex educator at a university, and she actually gives similar talks to try to inform people on the idea of consent and respect for other people's sexual autonomy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-seJ7B ... vVQs7NwCxq

I am not doing something to you. I am talking--although in the form of a sans-serif text--and sharing ideas. Now, if I were doing that with the intent of getting reactions out of you that are outside of how you would prefer to behave, such as getting you upset and causing you to not be as nice as you normally are, then that would be doing something to you, which would be wrong.

That's where I learned most of my ideas about this topic, and I think that their ideas are relevant to it.

It refers to your post. I think you're okay, so far.

I actually made that remark because I kept trying to think of something to say, and I realized that my partner was going to strangle me if I didn't get off the computer and pay him some attention...so I just sort of fudged it. Retrospectively, it may have come off as rude.

Now that I have had time to think, I will try saying what I was starting to say.

I had to go through a coming out experience as a gay guy, and something that I realized after coming out was that...oddly enough, people stopped picking up on the fact that I was gay. It was weird. It was like that feature of my personality had disappeared. I started realizing that I had to almost sort of shout it into people's ears. Gravity had inverted itself. Where, before, it had been almost like there was a beacon that was hanging over my head and flashing, I couldn't get anyone to notice! It was creepy!

Eventually, after several years, I realized that, before, people were not picking up on me being gay, but they were picking up on me being ashamed of my sexuality. They sensed that I was someone who had low self-esteem, especially in regard to my sexuality, and therefore someone that they could pick on and intimidate.

After my coming out experience, I had more of a propensity for taking power stances, and I almost walked with sort of a swagger. People can tell if you have respect for yourself, especially for your sexuality, and that causes people to think of you as a doer, not someone that things are done to.

That's one thing that makes things like The Vagina Monologues so incredibly powerful. You are in control, even if some dumb poor guy is being rude. Think of them like dogs. They are uneducated and not very smart. They are sometimes potentially dangerous, but they are controllable if you make sure they know who is boss. That is not broadcast by snarling at them or shaking your fist at them, but it's broadcast by carrying yourself with self-confidence, as if you are in a place where you belong and where you are in control. Dogs and dumb people can always sense it. I think that, on a certain level, they actually smell it.

As far as what I've got to say regarding guys who have the attitudes of those who make cat-calls, the best thing I can say is make them watch some of Laci Green's material regarding consent. She makes it fun and positive, and she boils it down into language that is comprehensible to simple minds.

I think the "primate" analogy is apt.

Usually, "catcalling" is done in groups--by people who wouldn't do it if they were alone.

It's frequently an attempt to mock somebody--not to convey that someone is attractive. It's also an attempt to "show-off," to obtain attention.

It reminds me of "running the gauntlet." One variation which I experienced as a kid was where a person would crawl underneath a bunch of people's legs, while getting smacked with a paddle. Catcalling could very well be a "verbal gauntlet."

It's not the same thing as some guy complimenting some woman in the street on her looks(though that could be construed as "creepy" as well). There's a different intention involved. It's more of a negative intention.

There's a threat because the catcalling group, in their frenzy, could surround a person with the intention either of scaring the person, or actually physically harming the person.

Within catcalling, the intention is never good.

What blessed and charming lives you lead, when the worst thing you can complain about is positive attention from the members of the opposite sex.

Um, no. They are actually something that is a little bit more sinister, although I admit that the behavior might cause otherwise charming women to take well-intended remarks the wrong way. I've had cops called on me by such women a couple of times, and it's annoying.

But no, a cat-call is not what it sounds like on the surface...kind of like you could hear "kids with autism have trouble with empathy," you could think that kids with autism lack empathy like a sociopathic killer, which is actually sort of opposite of the truth. Even as young children, autistic kids can become very distressed over the suffering of another being. Well, it's one of those things where you have to turn off your literalness.

The words might sound superficially complimentary, but the intonation and the timing convey a sense of objectification that actually scare some women...for good reason. A lot of times, the kinds of men who make cat-calls will, given a chance, corner a woman somewhere and press her for sexual favors, a lot of times using justifications like "Yeah, she really wanted it!" It's not usually the violent kind of rape you think of immediately when you hear the word, but it's based on intimidation and fear. The men doing it don't even acknowledge it is rape.

Back up your claims with evidence or admit you are talking BS.

doi: 10.1037//0022-3514.78.3.559

doi: 10.1177/0003122412451728

doi: 10.1007/s11199-007-9359-1

If you don't know how to use doi citations, then that's your watch-out, and you can look up CDC rape statistics as easily as I can.

I will do no such thing, regardless of how you choose to view the evidence that you are presented with. I am at liberty to form and voice opinions, and you are at liberty to either ignore them or to state your disagreement.

Cat calling is something frustrated older men do. They have given up on trying to attract women and know cat calling wont get them anywhere. They do it because they want to feel superiority while the girls just ignore them and walk by.

You wont notice young attractive men cat calling, they are usually more reserved in their approach cause they know the have a chance.

Well, it's the younger ones who will actually follow a woman for several blocks while saying things like "Hey, I was talking to you. Where are you going? Why won't you say anything?" That's actually the kind of situation that I think really ups the fear factor.

The best way to understand it would be, if you are a straight guy, imagine a large gay dude following you around and saying, "You know, I just said you were good-looking. Why can't you look at me? You don't have any sense of adventure? Don't deny it! You know you fantasize! Don't think you can hide it from me. I can feel it. I can always tell. Come on! Let's just talk! Give me your number, and we can hook up. Do you come this way a lot?"

And just to up the ante a bit, imagine, in that situation, that just a week ago, at your workplace, a guy copped a feel at your crotch, and he claimed, falsely, that you were aroused and "into it," causing you extreme humiliation. When you tried to report it to security, the security guard said "Look, your trousers are a little tight, buddy. If we report him, we'll have to write you up for dressing like that on the job. It's extremely inappropriate and offensive, and we try to be respectable around here." They weren't tight at all.

Not enough? Just a week ago, your brother was raped by a guy he thought was his friend after that guy got him so stone drunk he didn't know what was going on, and when your brother tried to report it to the cops, the cops started saying, "well, you knew what you were getting into. Why did you drink so much? How was he supposed to know you were that smashed? Hey, you weren't exactly dressed like a monk, buddy."

Now, with that stuff going on in your life and that of your friends and possibly your loved ones, wouldn't you bristle just slightly the next time a guy made a remark about your bum or your package?

Imagine there are women, in crowded cities, who actually live like that. It's their daily life. Somehow, it's like they have some beacon hanging over their heads that says "come harass me!" and they get this as a constant part of their lives no matter what they do.

There is a false belief, among straight guys, that women somehow respond differently from how they themselves do to the unwanted attention of men. It doesn't work that way. If you are a gay dude and relatively young-looking, then run away from Log Cabin Republicans because all of them I have met have been snakes, phonies, and predators who will corner you in an elevator and make you feel cheap and horrible. Oh, if you get involved with them, they will buy you stuff, but that's like letting a vampire into your house. Entitlement is their religion.

Unwanted male attention makes you feel cheap, whether you are a man or a woman, gay or straight.

Do you not see the contradiction in the message that women are empowered, independent and liberated, and yet terrified to walk down the street?

Cat calling is sexual harassment which should be punishible by bludgeoning with batons, tazing and macing and broken bones and threats of death for a second offense! Followed by a fine of 60000000$