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history_of_psychiatry
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05 Jun 2008, 12:24 pm

I don't see how an eternal punishment could exist for bad and unsaved people. If hell is a punishment, what is the purpose of a punishment? The purpose of a punishment is to teach you a hard lesson not to do what you just did. When you were a kid and you did something wrong, your parents would punish you. But they didn't punish you eternally. Why? Because an eternal punishment defeats the whole purpose of a punishment: to teach you a lesson as insentive not to do what you have just done. If hell is an eternal punishment, what is it's purpose? If there is no next time after hell, why punish people in the first place? If hell exists, it's there to just torment people for no reason forever. That makes no sense. In hell, there could be a guy who has been tormented and now has learned his lesson. But it's too late. That makes no sense to me. If you beleive everything is here for a reason, what is the reason for hell?


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Sand
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05 Jun 2008, 12:34 pm

The point of Hell is not to teach dead people lessons. It is to frighten living people. Dead people are gone forever whatever religious people attempt to say. It's the living that have to behave themselves out of fright.



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05 Jun 2008, 12:48 pm

history_of_psychiatry wrote:
I don't see how an eternal punishment could exist for bad and unsaved people. If hell is a punishment, what is the purpose of a punishment?


The purpose is justice, Hell being deserved by us all (Rom 3:23), and it is also a natural consequence of us being unfit to enter Heaven, the only other eternal realm. It is cause-and-effect, "the other shoe falling" so to speak: we do sins in this life that go unpunished -- but they are not actually unpunished, the punishment is simply on delay until the next life. But, God "will have mercy upon whom [He] will have mercy, and compassion upon whom [He] will have compassion" (Romans 9:15, Paul quoting God to Moses). So, presumably, one can cross one's fingers if one wishes to be so risky. But an attitude toward sinning will not obtain mercy. The mercy, rather, would be for those who are generous and loving, but who haven't accepted Christ yet. But the reason they haven't accepted Christ must be a very good one indeed. God will determine if it is good enough. That's my view.


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twoshots
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05 Jun 2008, 1:06 pm

history_of_psychiatry wrote:
The purpose of a punishment is to teach you a hard lesson not to do what you just did.

Flawed premise. You clearly have never heard of the word retribution.


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Sand
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05 Jun 2008, 1:32 pm

Obviously, the consensus is that Hell is revenge.



Ragtime
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05 Jun 2008, 1:32 pm

And no, God didn't create Hell because He hates you. :roll:
So before someone implies that, don't.


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slowmutant
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05 Jun 2008, 1:38 pm

Quote:
Flawed premise. You clearly have never heard of the word retribution.


I am familiar with that word, retribution. And this is by no means a flawed premise. It is an atheist's futile attempt to discredit religion with logic.



twoshots
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05 Jun 2008, 2:22 pm

Sand wrote:
Obviously, the consensus is that Hell is revenge.

It is incorrect to conflate retribution and revenge. That is a typical straw man.

slowmutant wrote:
I am familiar with that word, retribution. And this is by no means a flawed premise. It is an atheist's futile attempt to discredit religion with logic.

I would say it is a flawed premise. He cannot show hell is inconsistent by a premise which the justification of hell is not predicated on. All he can really say is "I disagree with this idea of punishment." His argument is absurd, on the face of it.


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slowmutant
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05 Jun 2008, 2:32 pm

Hell is real, make no mistake about that. It may not be quite what you expect, but it definitely exists. Like heaven, it can exist in both the relative and absolute forms.



Tim_Tex
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05 Jun 2008, 4:50 pm

I feel that hell exists, but that only the worst of the worst go there.


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Phagocyte
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05 Jun 2008, 4:51 pm

Ragtime wrote:
And no, God didn't create Hell because He hates you. :roll:
So before someone implies that, don't.


I thought that's why He created the DMV.


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skafather84
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05 Jun 2008, 5:52 pm

so...here's a question about that:

all mentions of hell seem to imply that it's a permanent thing. what is the point of the punishment if there's no lesson learned from it or improvement to be made?



Aalto
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05 Jun 2008, 8:12 pm

I'm really surprised on why we're bothering arguing whether there is a hell or not.

Construe that on the side you like–you may catch my drift correctly.



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05 Jun 2008, 8:33 pm

Hell *can* exist. If we uphold reason, then anything that is not internally contradictory *can* exist.

Because of that, the question is: "why would hell exist?".

Here are Ragtime's thoughts on the matter:

Ragtime wrote:
The purpose is justice, Hell being deserved by us all (Rom 3:23), and it is also a natural consequence of us being unfit to enter Heaven, the only other eternal realm. It is cause-and-effect, "the other shoe falling" so to speak: we do sins in this life that go unpunished -- but they are not actually unpunished, the punishment is simply on delay until the next life. But, God "will have mercy upon whom [He] will have mercy, and compassion upon whom [He] will have compassion" (Romans 9:15, Paul quoting God to Moses). So, presumably, one can cross one's fingers if one wishes to be so risky. But an attitude toward sinning will not obtain mercy. The mercy, rather, would be for those who are generous and loving, but who haven't accepted Christ yet. But the reason they haven't accepted Christ must be a very good one indeed. God will determine if it is good enough. That's my view.

And no, God didn't create Hell because He hates you.


Now let us examine this idea.

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The purpose is justice, Hell being deserved by us all

Now, this idea seems contradictory. If hell's purpose is justice, and justice is giving people what they deserve, then there must be a breach of justice if we all do not go to hell, as it is unjust to give some people something undeserved. Because of this, we must either question the goodness of God's justice if it is improved by it's violation, or question a greater portion of the framework.

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and it is also a natural consequence of us being unfit to enter Heaven, the only other eternal realm.

Yes, but who is the creator? If hell is a creation, then it could also have been that hell was never created, or that hell can be destroyed. Given that none of these happen, we then must question the purposes in creating hell or not destroying it and replacing it when such a solution would result in greater happiness in the damned, no reduction in joy of the elect, and if God is love, then logically an increase in his joy.

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we do sins in this life that go unpunished -- but they are not actually unpunished, the punishment is simply on delay until the next life.

Well, ok, but what is the point of punishment? If it is merely to give pain, then God's love is questioned. If it is to improve an individual, then the eternal nature of the punishment is questioned. Heck, an eternal punishment pushed upon a being too finite to recognize eternity is enough to lead to questioning God's love.

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And no, God didn't create Hell because He hates you.

Well, he could not have devised a system for my torture out of love for me. In fact, such a system would contradict any love for me. If it is not for the purpose of hating people, then what purpose does it have? Why is the existence of hell in the format that it is, necessary, and why is it necessary that people go there instead of a 3rd realm or anything like that?



The_Chosen_One
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05 Jun 2008, 8:39 pm

Ragtime wrote:
history_of_psychiatry wrote:
I don't see how an eternal punishment could exist for bad and unsaved people. If hell is a punishment, what is the purpose of a punishment?


The purpose is justice, Hell being deserved by us all (Rom 3:23), and it is also a natural consequence of us being unfit to enter Heaven, the only other eternal realm. It is cause-and-effect, "the other shoe falling" so to speak: we do sins in this life that go unpunished -- but they are not actually unpunished, the punishment is simply on delay until the next life. But, God "will have mercy upon whom [He] will have mercy, and compassion upon whom [He] will have compassion" (Romans 9:15, Paul quoting God to Moses). So, presumably, one can cross one's fingers if one wishes to be so risky. But an attitude toward sinning will not obtain mercy. The mercy, rather, would be for those who are generous and loving, but who haven't accepted Christ yet. But the reason they haven't accepted Christ must be a very good one indeed. God will determine if it is good enough. That's my view.


That's the most ridiculous load of BS I've read so far, Raggy. As History said, the idea of punishment is to make sure that the offender sees the wrong they have committed, and gets a chance to correct that wrong. Sending a soul to hell for eternity completely defeats the purpose as there is no chance for rehabilitation (you may say that judgement saves everyone ultimately, but that is debatable). Pagans on the other hand believe that whatever wrong that is commited in one life is accounted for in the next, but there is ALWAYS the chance for that wrong to be righted and Karma sorts the rest out. There is no damnation, just responsiblity. It will always amaze me how you can sit there and take literally the words of scripture that were written in an abstract way, and only quote those words as fact, when there is NO WAY that ANY of it can be verified. Do you really expect us to take you serious when you do? Don't bother with that, it was a rhetorical question. Or do you have trouble with them as well.


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Ragtime
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05 Jun 2008, 8:53 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Hell *can* exist. If we uphold reason, then anything that is not internally contradictory *can* exist.

Because of that, the question is: "why would hell exist?".

Here are Ragtime's thoughts on the matter:

Ragtime wrote:
The purpose is justice, Hell being deserved by us all (Rom 3:23), and it is also a natural consequence of us being unfit to enter Heaven, the only other eternal realm. It is cause-and-effect, "the other shoe falling" so to speak: we do sins in this life that go unpunished -- but they are not actually unpunished, the punishment is simply on delay until the next life. But, God "will have mercy upon whom [He] will have mercy, and compassion upon whom [He] will have compassion" (Romans 9:15, Paul quoting God to Moses). So, presumably, one can cross one's fingers if one wishes to be so risky. But an attitude toward sinning will not obtain mercy. The mercy, rather, would be for those who are generous and loving, but who haven't accepted Christ yet. But the reason they haven't accepted Christ must be a very good one indeed. God will determine if it is good enough. That's my view.

And no, God didn't create Hell because He hates you.


Now let us examine this idea.

Quote:
The purpose is justice, Hell being deserved by us all

Now, this idea seems contradictory. If hell's purpose is justice, and justice is giving people what they deserve, then there must be a breach of justice if we all do not go to hell, as it is unjust to give some people something undeserved. Because of this, we must either question the goodness of God's justice if it is improved by it's violation, or question a greater portion of the framework.


"Judgment" and "mercy" are considered the "more important matters" of God's law. One could argue that judgment and mercy are at odds with each other. But God is so great, that He combines them, in ways that, like most of God's attributes, exceed our human understanding. So, God is both rigid and forgiving, as He wishes.
But again, not drifting from justice toward unjust punishment, but rather drifting from justice toward mercy. My dad used to say God "errs on the side of mercy" when making His final, eternal judgments of mankind. An imprecise phrase, for God does not err, but rather God does as He wishes, being properly sovereign as God.

To illustrate this principle: Jesus told a parable -- and He related it to the Kindgom of Heaven -- of workers who were hired at different times to work in a field. Now, some were hired early in the day, while others were hired later, and still others were hired at the 11th hour. At the end of the harvest, their master called them to him, and gave them their wages. But when those who had worked all day saw that those who had worked only from the 11th hour received the same wages as they did, they were angry, and protested against the master. But he answered them, "'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'"

Interesting, that. The master was being just, and yet he was also being merciful. If we had worked all day, we would be angry too, but why? We were given what was agreed upon. What is it to us if our hirer wishes to be generous to someone else, for is he not entitled to do it? Yes.

This parable illustrates how God is both fair and merciful, and how He is thoroughly good in that.