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MissPickwickian
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15 Mar 2009, 7:16 am

History poses a legitimate question: why do the Abrahamic faiths---Christianity, Judaism, and Islam---have the worst track records of violence of any religions in the world? All three teach faith in the One God, humility, benevolence, pacifism (outside of the most extreme situations), simplicity, and Teh Universal Brotherhood, and all three have holy texts that are just beautiful, message-wise as well as aesthetics-wise. What the hell happened?

My theory is psychological rather than religious or political. Unlike Buddhism, Hinduism, and Confucianism, religions with much better reputations in this area, the Abrahamic faiths experienced terrible child abuse. They were persecuted when they were young, and they still have the scars.

The Jews have been taking people's crap from the very beginning, and the Torah reflects that. "Let my people go!" begged Moses, to no avail; eventually he would have to have God drown the Egyptian army for him. There is also the story of David and Goliath, which presents the problem of the Abrahamic faiths better than any other. Itty bitty David (the Jews) has to slay Goliath (the rest of humanity, which wants the Jews dead) with an itty bitty pebble. He succeeds. Only a downtrodden people would have a need for such a story.

Christianity itself revolves around an act of persecution: the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Martyrdom and sacrifice are the most important and revolutionary concepts in Christianity; I seriously doubt that Christianity could survive without them. The Christian attitude is not something one comes up with while meditating under a bodi tree; it's something one comes up with while one is being eaten by a lion.

And in the 600s, there was this scruffy little Arab guy who was the bane of Mecca's existence. I mean, he just WOULD NOT stop challenging the tribal aristocracies, demanding that they stop killing each other, stop having drunken orgies, and worship some stupid new god called "Allah", who did not even have an idol dedicated to Him. Worse yet, people were actually LISTENING to the little traitor, and the orphans started asking to be treated like human beings "because Muhammad says we're all brothers and sisters"! The Meccans punished him as best they could, by accosting him in the street, putting an embargo on his tribe, trying to assassinate him several times, and slaughtering his followers. Eventually, they just exiled him and his annoying fans to Medina. But stupid Medina fell in love with the guy. This had to stop, so Mecca called in the troops. Many battles ensued; in one, Mecca succeeded in wounding The Lead Dork Himself. Medina somehow fought them off, despite being a stupid ret*d city, and the Meccans had to go home. Luckily, though, the weirdo had to deal with assassination attempts and interfaith conflict until his death.

And so we see yet another common thread in these three religions: us against the world. Egypt/Rome/Mecca was mean to us. Prople are out to get us. There's a Nazi/liberal/Israeli vigilante in our closet. This attitude breeds violence as often as it breeds humility and empathy; us vs. the world translates to warfare and genocide far too easily. To make matters worse, the three great post-traumatic stress disorder religions have all staked a claim to the same strip of land.

Thoughts?


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Postperson
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15 Mar 2009, 8:08 am

What's your 'speaking position' at the moment, Miss P, it seems to change such a lot.



MissPickwickian
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15 Mar 2009, 10:54 am

Eh, the stuff about Muhammad was a rhetorical device. Sorry Allah.


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ZEGH8578
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15 Mar 2009, 11:20 am

i think a religious attitude changes from polytheistic to monotheistic. i havent done any research on this, so these will be my musings, nothing else.

abrahamic = monotheistic, in the world today, i cant think of any non-abrahamic monotheistic religions of any significance.

ONE god, ONE power, ONE will.
if clever minds in power, decide that the ONE will, is to destroy the enemy, then the enemy MUST be destroyed.

vikings, who were polytheistic, never went to war FOR any of their gods, but rather prayed to their gods for a good battle, safe come coming, etc etc etc.
too many gods, too many wills, besides, polytheistic gods seem to often observe the people of earth, not seek to rule them, or impose their will through them, as a monotheistic god seems to enjoy doing.

at least in viking mythology, there were no "sins", sexuality was very open and free, there are examples of sex and alcohol being used to milden a ritualistic killing, for example, by the logic that - this person is going to die, at least provide him/her some sex and alcohol first. a very different attitude, than that of a lonely god, who would rather see everyone bite their tongue, and stay away from everything fun :D


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ruveyn
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15 Mar 2009, 2:16 pm

MissPickwickian wrote:

Thoughts?


The Romans revered their emperor as a god. They have almost a thousand year track record on violence. The Japanese revered their emperor as a god and they trashed China pretty well. Then there were the Persians. Violence is not the exclusive province of the Abrahamic faiths nor of monotheism. Every empire which was either ruled by a god or was beholden to a god shed their share of blood.

The bottom line is organized religion of any kind leads to sad, bad results.

ruveyn



Khan_Sama
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15 Mar 2009, 2:58 pm

Are you aware that there's a 4th Abrahamic faith which is in its infancy and is heavily persecuted?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Bahais

And this faith abhors any kind of violence, instead promising the most greatest peace.



Dussel
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15 Mar 2009, 3:12 pm

ruveyn wrote:
MissPickwickian wrote:

Thoughts?


The Romans revered their emperor as a god. They have almost a thousand year track record on violence.


First: An emperor was on itself if alive not a god, he was declared after his dead as a god (with some exception). The official offerings imposed by the Roman State were made to the "genius" of emperor, as the spiritual guidance of the emperor and to the main state gods: mostly Jupiter, Juno, Minerva and Mars. This service was less seen as religious service, but like an oat of allegiance.

Second: The Roman society was more violent than modern societies, but within the context of its time it was less violent than the societies prior, because it abolished wars within the empire.

ruveyn wrote:
Every empire which was either ruled by a god or was beholden to a god shed their share of blood.


Not really - if we follow the Theory of the EU as an empire, the EU is ruled by ink and paper.

ruveyn wrote:
The bottom line is organized religion of any kind leads to sad, bad results.


At least potentially, because it excludes the rational reasoning per definition.



twoshots
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16 Mar 2009, 3:17 pm

I'm wondering if there exists any means to establish objectively that the Abrahamic faiths create more violence than other faiths in and of themselves. I have not been convinced that the perception of them as unusually violent has anything other than anecdotal evidence behind it. If anyone wants a violent religion, may I direct your eyes to the Aztecs.


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Dussel
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16 Mar 2009, 8:01 pm

twoshots wrote:
I'm wondering if there exists any means to establish objectively that the Abrahamic faiths create more violence than other faiths in and of themselves. I have not been convinced that the perception of them as unusually violent has anything other than anecdotal evidence behind it. If anyone wants a violent religion, may I direct your eyes to the Aztecs.


I also think it more along the line that a society does form the religion according to their needs - or the other way around too: Religion bends along the lines to survive in society. The "raw material" (so-called "holy Books", myths and other teachings) does not really matter how a religion will appear in reality.



ruveyn
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17 Mar 2009, 9:36 am

Khan_Sama wrote:
Are you aware that there's a 4th Abrahamic faith which is in its infancy and is heavily persecuted?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Bahais

And this faith abhors any kind of violence, instead promising the most greatest peace.


The Bahia is the prototype of an Islam purged of its more evil elements. It is no wonder that the real Muslims want to kill the Bahai.

ruveyn



ZEGH8578
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17 Mar 2009, 11:15 am

ruveyn wrote:
Khan_Sama wrote:
Are you aware that there's a 4th Abrahamic faith which is in its infancy and is heavily persecuted?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Bahais

And this faith abhors any kind of violence, instead promising the most greatest peace.


The Bahia is the prototype of an Islam purged of its more evil elements. It is no wonder that the real Muslims want to kill the Bahai.

ruveyn


western and central europe has the highest concentration of atheists in the world, scandinavia and britain are the cultural centres of occultism and satanism. norway is the biggest exporter of satanical culture.

satanism, right to the core, no "walking around the bush".

the "thelemic fate" has spread from UK and into america as well. thats direct. white young people are, as we speak, being submitted as members in this _directly_ egocentric and ritualistic occult faith.

why does a distant tiny little minority bearded faith worry you MORE than something thats ACTUALLY allready present in europe and US, and even FOCUSES on what you'd definitely call evil?


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Henriksson
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17 Mar 2009, 11:28 am

ZEGH8578 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Khan_Sama wrote:
Are you aware that there's a 4th Abrahamic faith which is in its infancy and is heavily persecuted?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Bahais

And this faith abhors any kind of violence, instead promising the most greatest peace.


The Bahia is the prototype of an Islam purged of its more evil elements. It is no wonder that the real Muslims want to kill the Bahai.

ruveyn


western and central europe has the highest concentration of atheists in the world, scandinavia and britain are the cultural centres of occultism and satanism. norway is the biggest exporter of satanical culture.

satanism, right to the core, no "walking around the bush".

the "thelemic fate" has spread from UK and into america as well. thats direct. white young people are, as we speak, being submitted as members in this _directly_ egocentric and ritualistic occult faith.

why does a distant tiny little minority bearded faith worry you MORE than something thats ACTUALLY allready present in europe and US, and even FOCUSES on what you'd definitely call evil?

Image
Say what you want about those crazed satanists, but they're not big on oil. And as we all know yankees need this precious black gold! :wink:


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ZEGH8578
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17 Mar 2009, 11:57 am

Henriksson wrote:
ZEGH8578 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Khan_Sama wrote:
Are you aware that there's a 4th Abrahamic faith which is in its infancy and is heavily persecuted?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Bahais

And this faith abhors any kind of violence, instead promising the most greatest peace.


The Bahia is the prototype of an Islam purged of its more evil elements. It is no wonder that the real Muslims want to kill the Bahai.

ruveyn


western and central europe has the highest concentration of atheists in the world, scandinavia and britain are the cultural centres of occultism and satanism. norway is the biggest exporter of satanical culture.

satanism, right to the core, no "walking around the bush".

the "thelemic fate" has spread from UK and into america as well. thats direct. white young people are, as we speak, being submitted as members in this _directly_ egocentric and ritualistic occult faith.

why does a distant tiny little minority bearded faith worry you MORE than something thats ACTUALLY allready present in europe and US, and even FOCUSES on what you'd definitely call evil?

Image
Say what you want about those crazed satanists, but they're not big on oil. And as we all know yankees need this precious black gold! :wink:


if only people would realize

religion
is
not
the
issue

:roll:

but some douchebag w a tie mentions it, and people drool and drone to his tune "gasp! rylly? they want our freedumm? i dunt wanna give away muh freedumm :("

if i wasnt so jaded, i'd cry every night at the stupidity of this so-called "intelligent" species...


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aka010101
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17 Mar 2009, 1:53 pm

I know how you feel zegh. I'm still shocked humanity survived the cold war.

Also, i'm seeing a LOT of hatred and bigotry in this thread. Makes me rather sad.

First off, i gaurentee you, there is NO real religion that considers itself the 'bad guys'. The 'satanism' is really just a christian name for other religions they oppose. Its the religious equivalent of calling someone a terrorist.

Second, ryuven, i'm gonna have to call you out on this. STOP PICKING ON THE MUSLIMS. I've seen SEVERAL threads now where you've been attacking them to no end, and even once instance where you suggested Geoncide to eliminate the 'terrorists' as you call them. Dude, you sound like EXACTLY like hitler. Knock it off. That is all.

It really saddens me how few people can handle the topic of religion in a mature manner, here we have someone trying to discuss a legitimate and neutral theory, and everyone has to go and turn it into a flame war. Take that crap to 4chan, we don't want it here.



twoshots
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17 Mar 2009, 2:27 pm

Like shootin turkeys in a barrel.

aka010101 wrote:
Dude, you sound like EXACTLY like hitler.

Dude, you sound like EXACTLY like everyone talking about politics on the internet.


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aka010101
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17 Mar 2009, 2:31 pm

I know, i know , but in this case, i feel it's applicible.

Anyway, i think someone should try to get this back on topic.