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marshall
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15 Jun 2010, 10:24 pm

DonkeyBuster wrote:
Know what you mean about needing the release of crying but not being able to.

I'll deliberately manipulate myself to get the tears flowing... watch a movie or TV show I know will provoke sadness, for example. Once I get things loosened up, then I can switch to what's really bothering me.

While my mom was dying, I felt terribly sad, but couldn't release the tears. I'd watch Grey's Anatomy & that would get things started. Then I could reflect on loosing my mother and allow myself to truly feel her suffering and loss.

I do the same thing by listening to sad music. Yet it's not depression that I experience through depressing music. It's poignancy. Depression is like all the negative feelings but with a complete lack of poignancy. Its a completely sterile emotion, not even capable of generating tears. Add poignancy and its no longer so bad. I understand why people of an artistic leaning sometimes romanticize depressing themes.



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16 Jun 2010, 4:48 am

marshall wrote:
I do the same thing by listening to sad music. Yet it's not depression that I experience through depressing music. It's poignancy. Depression is like all the negative feelings but with a complete lack of poignancy. Its a completely sterile emotion, not even capable of generating tears. Add poignancy and its no longer so bad. I understand why people of an artistic leaning sometimes romanticize depressing themes.


Mmmm, yes, I know what you're talking about. The kind of pervasive, deadening, leaden experience. Spiritual inertia. I'm in that space a lot these days. Everything seems so superficial, so contrived or so rote.

In part, there seems to be some thwarting of my special interest. The rev I usually get from it is missing... I worry that I'm loosing it, and it's been so important to me for the last decade. Then again, it may just be that I've had a significant person in my life, with whom I shared a lot of my discoveries, basically shut me out, the usual trauma. So the joy of contact & sharing is gone.



marshall
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16 Jun 2010, 6:24 pm

DonkeyBuster wrote:
Mmmm, yes, I know what you're talking about. The kind of pervasive, deadening, leaden experience. Spiritual inertia. I'm in that space a lot these days. Everything seems so superficial, so contrived or so rote.

In part, there seems to be some thwarting of my special interest. The rev I usually get from it is missing... I worry that I'm loosing it, and it's been so important to me for the last decade. Then again, it may just be that I've had a significant person in my life, with whom I shared a lot of my discoveries, basically shut me out, the usual trauma. So the joy of contact & sharing is gone.

This is too familiar. I know I get in this space and I have no ability to get myself out. At least not through sheer force of will. I think most of us DO need that "joy of contact and sharing" to get out of our own heads. I find that if I have nobody to share joy or passion with then my ability to experience such feelings on my own is diminished.



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17 Jun 2010, 7:38 am

marshall wrote:
DonkeyBuster wrote:
Mmmm, yes, I know what you're talking about. The kind of pervasive, deadening, leaden experience. Spiritual inertia. I'm in that space a lot these days. Everything seems so superficial, so contrived or so rote.

In part, there seems to be some thwarting of my special interest. The rev I usually get from it is missing... I worry that I'm loosing it, and it's been so important to me for the last decade. Then again, it may just be that I've had a significant person in my life, with whom I shared a lot of my discoveries, basically shut me out, the usual trauma. So the joy of contact & sharing is gone.

This is too familiar. I know I get in this space and I have no ability to get myself out. At least not through sheer force of will. I think most of us DO need that "joy of contact and sharing" to get out of our own heads. I find that if I have nobody to share joy or passion with then my ability to experience such feelings on my own is diminished.


Well said. In part, I'm just taking this as another phase, a "pregnant pause" in the usual progression of my life, figuring something is being processed on a deeper level, so I am paying particular attention to whims & what they may show. And as much as I recognize how much pleasure I get from sharing my passion, getting to talk about it with others, I'm wondering if I can see this time as one of refinement without the constant self-comparison I get into with others around the topic. Seeing it as a sort of hermitage of the mind, a time of redefining and increasing/improving my skills & understanding.

Of course, the inner cynic does arise and dismiss this, but I have to wonder just who that little voice serves... me or the world of judgemental NTs.



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17 Jun 2010, 8:33 am

marshall wrote:
I can't function AT ALL when I'm tired. It's not even a f***ing choice. I just have ZERO motivation. I don't understand how other people can tolerate life. Right now it seems like I'd rather sleep for the rest of eternity. How do other people tolerate dull tedious work? People who sit at their desk and answer the phone all day?



Most people are unhappy with their jobs. Everyone cannot be an astronaut or a molecular engineer. Most people are tired of their jobs and some polls i've seen seem to show that 70% of the population would change jobs if they could - and let me emphasise that if they could.

Work isnt about choise as much as survival, and before you get that really fun job that you want, you have to wade through a tonne of - lets face it - s**t jobs that sucks your life away, makes you wanna call in sick every day or even worse: quit!

Either you find a way to cope with work and enjoy it in another way, find good coworkers that makes it more bearable - or quit and hope to find a new job. And if you do, go for a job that interest you - not one that pays well.

I know that money is vital to survive, but unless you want to feel unhappy, tired and unmotivated for the rest of your life... well.

Thats all the advice i can give you.

EDIT: Oh, and see OFFICE SPACE. It changed my life.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v90q0ydxMI[/youtube]


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marshall
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17 Jun 2010, 12:00 pm

Ichinin wrote:
Most people are unhappy with their jobs. Everyone cannot be an astronaut or a molecular engineer. Most people are tired of their jobs and some polls i've seen seem to show that 70% of the population would change jobs if they could - and let me emphasise that if they could.

The sad part is I do have a job that I'm supposed to like. I'm a scientist. I'm close to having my MS degree. I'm just not finding the work that other people think is important very interesting. I can't really explain why it isn't interesting to me without going into more detail than I have the energy to properly articulate.

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Work isnt about choise as much as survival, and before you get that really fun job that you want, you have to wade through a tonne of - lets face it - sh** jobs that sucks your life away, makes you wanna call in sick every day or even worse: quit!

If most people aren't happy with their jobs and life is only about survival, then what gives them the will to survive in the first place? Why don't more people simply off themselves? In today's economy employers have their employees by the balls. I should feel lucky but it just isn't enough. Nothing is enough.

I also realize it could be even worse. I could have been born into poverty in the poorest of third world countries. Yet even those people continue to survive? Why? Is it religion? False hope? Maybe I'd be better off if I was better at self-deceit but that just doesn't work on me.

I know I have to realize that happiness is all relative, but I just can't seem to accept that. Knowing that I'm depressed and my only chance at happiness is hinged on the production of the proper electro-chemical activity within a certain area of my brain will forever f*** with me. Nobody wants to know that truth. It's just too horrible to fully conceive.

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Either you find a way to cope with work and enjoy it in another way, find good coworkers that makes it more bearable - or quit and hope to find a new job. And if you do, go for a job that interest you - not one that pays well.

How do I even know if having a job that interests me is within the realm of possibility?

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I know that money is vital to survive, but unless you want to feel unhappy, tired and unmotivated for the rest of your life... well.

Or I could just end it. I didn't ask to be born into this predicament. It seems I'm just not built to tolerate life.

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EDIT: Oh, and see OFFICE SPACE. It changed my life.

I've seen it. I can still laugh. Sometimes it's just not enough though.



marshall
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17 Jun 2010, 12:32 pm

DonkeyBuster wrote:
Well said. In part, I'm just taking this as another phase, a "pregnant pause" in the usual progression of my life, figuring something is being processed on a deeper level, so I am paying particular attention to whims & what they may show. And as much as I recognize how much pleasure I get from sharing my passion, getting to talk about it with others, I'm wondering if I can see this time as one of refinement without the constant self-comparison I get into with others around the topic. Seeing it as a sort of hermitage of the mind, a time of redefining and increasing/improving my skills & understanding.

Of course, the inner cynic does arise and dismiss this, but I have to wonder just who that little voice serves... me or the world of judgemental NTs.


That makes sense. I think I've just gotten into such a deep hole that I can't even begin on my own interests. Something stops me. I think it's fear of dissatisfaction. It's easier to just go on the internet and browse forums for hours. Yet the dissatisfaction eventually creeps in if I spend too long it eventually reaches a suffocating level. If I have no one to talk to about the only solution is to go outside and walk around. Yet after a while of walking around I just want to go back inside and go on the internet again and the whole cycle repeats. I feel like I need to get myself to do something new but I have no idea how. I have no idea where to start. I need other people to kick me in the ass and drag me along. Otherwise nothing happens in my life. Nothing changes. I don't completely get it and it's very hard to explain to people who haven't experienced it. It just seems like too many positive aspects of life involve serendipitous occurrences. I have so little motivation because I have no way of foreseeing these things in my head. I can't do things unless I'm certain of a positive effect on my mood.

Sorry for rambling. My thoughts are so disorganized sometimes. That's another problem I have socially. I can't just walk up to someone and start talking unless someone else spurs me on. My brain only seems to be able to feed on instantaneous associations and tangents of thought. I have no real control over my conversations with people. I have no ability to get out what I feel like I need to get out if the other person isn't somehow prompting me.



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17 Jun 2010, 1:30 pm

No, this is good stuff you're saying, don't bother parsing it for coherency.

You say you're a scientist... me, too. Or I was when I was younger. A mind curious about how things worked.

Is it possible to utilize that aspect of mind to investigate what's happening with you right now? You've already made some very relevant observations.

You've noticed a pattern of 'netting and then moving... what prompts you to transition from one to the other? I find that when I run into stupidity on the 'net, or friction, I quit it and go into my garden. I putter there for a while, but then some physical parameter might change (too hot, too tired) or a spark of curiosity will draw me back to the computer....

You?

Consider your life an experiment. Tamper with it. Investigate its assumed parameters. Get curious about outside influences.

Really, apply scientific investigation to assumptions...



marshall
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17 Jun 2010, 2:09 pm

DonkeyBuster wrote:
No, this is good stuff you're saying, don't bother parsing it for coherency.

You say you're a scientist... me, too. Or I was when I was younger. A mind curious about how things worked.

Is it possible to utilize that aspect of mind to investigate what's happening with you right now? You've already made some very relevant observations.

You've noticed a pattern of 'netting and then moving... what prompts you to transition from one to the other? I find that when I run into stupidity on the 'net, or friction, I quit it and go into my garden. I putter there for a while, but then some physical parameter might change (too hot, too tired) or a spark of curiosity will draw me back to the computer....

You?

Consider your life an experiment. Tamper with it. Investigate its assumed parameters. Get curious about outside influences.

Really, apply scientific investigation to assumptions...


I only transition once I feel utterly bored to the point where I start feeling uncomfortable. After a while it just feels like all the low hanging fruit is gone. Especially if I'm not getting enough replies to my posts. I've also been waiting for a friend to email me and she hasn't. Every time a check the email and there's nothing new I get more uncomfortable.



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17 Jun 2010, 2:23 pm

marshall wrote:
The sad part is I do have a job that I'm supposed to like.


Sometimes you just don't fit in at that specific job - or with certain people. Sometimes coworkers are asses that actively work against you, and sometimes the work you do go unnoticed and unappreciated. I've done this and that in the IT Business and yes, at first i liked the work i had, but it was all centred upon making that buck and coworkers and management showed its true nature, and it affected me. I just cannot give a crap about making another million for other people - i wanted to do a meaningful job!


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If most people aren't happy with their jobs and life is only about survival, then what gives them the will to survive in the first place? Why don't more people simply off themselves?


Good question. Don't have an answer to that. Maby their hopes and dreams that "one day everything will be alright".


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Maybe I'd be better off if I was better at self-deceit but that just doesn't work on me.


Self-deceit rarely does. However, find a calling: aim for something you really like. I did, true - it took over 10 bloody years to get there, but here i am.


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How do I even know if having a job that interests me is within the realm of possibility?


Well, you found that first job didnt you? What made you interested in it? Note: you don't have to quit your job at this very second. Take your time, look around and see what else interest you. Or maby you should take a simpler job that is half time and get more free time for yourself where you can do stuff you like.


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Or I could just end it. I didn't ask to be born into this predicament. It seems I'm just not built to tolerate life.


Dont! I used to think like you when i was younger, were really depressed that i couldn't hang on to a single job because of social demands or find a stable income so i could start life, believe me, i've been there and cried all the tears.

But even though i felt like crap, i started to find pleasure and joy in the little things in life, like dining out, treating myself to nice things, buying stuff for myself etc... the most important thing i did was to isolate myself from the problems of the world.

I got too depressed thinking about stuff that went on around me (genocide in rwanda, human rights being stepped upon elsewhere etc). At that point, i started to feel MUCH better. I'm still not happy and throwing flowers around me, but at least the darkness is now transformed into "grayness".

I do not expect work and living by myself will ever push me into the light (happyness), but at least now, i can see a future.

So, you may want to try my way before you decide to go down that other way - there is no turning back from your way...


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marshall
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17 Jun 2010, 3:01 pm

Ichinin wrote:
Well, you found that first job didnt you? What made you interested in it? Note: you don't have to quit your job at this very second. Take your time, look around and see what else interest you. Or maby you should take a simpler job that is half time and get more free time for yourself where you can do stuff you like.

I wasn't really interested in it. Other people pushed me into it, mainly my father. I don't even have the motivation to do a resume by myself. If nobody pushed me I wouldn't have any job. I'd be on SSI or possibly dead. SSI isn't enough to live on independently so I'd be suicidally depressed while living with my parents for the rest of my life. Or at least until they die and then I kill myself when they are no longer around.

I don't know what to do in my free time other than browsing the web. I'm just too lonely and bored.
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Or I could just end it. I didn't ask to be born into this predicament. It seems I'm just not built to tolerate life.


Dont! I used to think like you when i was younger, were really depressed that i couldn't hang on to a single job because of social demands or find a stable income so i could start life, believe me, i've been there and cried all the tears.

I'm beyond tears. Tears would be nice. Anything is better than this. I wish my life was more tragic than it actually is because then I'd at least have a story to tell. As it is there is nothing but pathetic emptiness and a sterile nothingness. I don't even have anything to talk about.

Thank god I don't have any social demands. I have no interest in the fake happy shiny people that surround me. I'm alienated even here on this board. Plenty of people claim to suffer from depression but I haven't ever found someone with worse depression than me. I do think I'm nearly on the brink.



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17 Jun 2010, 4:05 pm

marshall wrote:
I don't know what to do in my free time other than browsing the web. I'm just too lonely and bored.


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I'm beyond tears. Tears would be nice. Anything is better than this. I wish my life was more tragic than it actually is because then I'd at least have a story to tell. As it is there is nothing but pathetic emptiness and a sterile nothingness. I don't even have anything to talk about.

Thank god I don't have any social demands. I have no interest in the fake happy shiny people that surround me. I'm alienated even here on this board. Plenty of people claim to suffer from depression but I haven't ever found someone with worse depression than me. I do think I'm nearly on the brink.


Please don't mistake this for being patronizing, I'm just relating my experiences.

At one point I had all the symptoms you describe. It felt like falling down an infinite well, with nothing to grab on to, and the future looked like a brick wall. The world was gray, hostile, and pointless. I felt like I was unable to succeed at anything. Trapped. I just wanted to not wake up one morning. It was so bad, the only reason I didn't do something stupid at the time was because I didn't want to upset parents/relatives.

I was lucky enough to find three things within short time of one another:

* a good therapist/empath (mostly over phone and Email) who knew exactly what I was going through. She helped me recognize how much darkness inside me is not my own, but something I pick up from others and store indefinitely. She taught me the notion of "cleaning" myself from this, as well as monitoring where my mind goes, and switching tracks. Switching tracks was impossible for a long time, but the seeds of this advice dwelled until they sprouted.

* a job (helped me pay the therapist, and introduced structure. Structure is CRUCIAL for the depressive)

* martial arts (Aikido) - first I went to http://www.aikidofaq.com/ and really liked everything, and then I went to http://aikiweb.com/search/ , found a dojo near me, and forced myself to go. After the first 3 months I almost quit - it was very frustrating. But then I started doing forward rolls, joined the regular class, and things started moving along, however slowly. It helped me develop "shields", so I don't pick up other people's negative moods so easily, and so that it doesn't stick to me for so long.
It used to be that another person's presence in the room felt to me like an expanding bubble that was squishing me into a corner. But it is no longer that way.

The very first Aikido class I went to gave me this "high". For the longest time, the "high" is what kept me going. For 2 hours after each class, I felt "normal", and this made me realize that my DEFAULT STATE was ABNORMAL. That my default state was f****d UP, and that it WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE. These glimpses kept me coming for more.