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smudge
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11 Dec 2014, 2:23 pm



Emma Watson wrote:
It is time that we all see gender as a spectrum instead of two sets of opposing ideals...

I want men to take up this mantle. So their daughters, sisters and mothers can be free from prejudice but also so that their sons have permission to be vulnerable and human too - reclaim those parts of themselves they abandoned and in doing so be a more true and complete version of themselves...

When at 18, my male friends were unable to express their feelings...

(Men) Gender equality is your issue too. Because to date, I've seen my father's role as a parent being valued less by society despite my needing his presence, as a child, as much as my mother's. I've seen young men suffering from mental illness, unable to ask for help, for fear it would make them less of a men—or less of a man. In fact, in the U.K., suicide is the biggest killer of men, between 20 to 49, eclipsing road accidents, cancer and coronary heart disease. I've seen men made fragile and insecure by a distorted sense of what constitutes male success. Men don't have the benefits of equality, either.


I recommend you watch the whole speech, as I've only managed to copy and paste parts of it. Basically, I'm talking about the part that men should be allowed to feel vulnerable without being judged by other men and women.

I know women are partly to blame for this. Society in general is to blame, because of the assumptions that are put onto both sexes.

I realise that women want men to be strong for them, to protect them and provide security. I realise there will be a big bunch of women on here saying that they actually want equality, and someone who is the same worth as them, that they prefer to always pay for themselves etc. But in all honesty, I don't see the majority of women thinking like that.

But, I think for this discussion, we'll leave the money issues aside, firstly because it's been discussed before, and secondly because I want to concentrate on the concept of men being allowed to appear vulnerable, because I think that is a far bigger (and complex) issue.

In all honesty, I have never, ever minded when a man has genuinely cried in front of me (I say genuinely, because two I knew used crying to manipulate me). If anything, I thought it was sweet when it was genuine. I quite like it when a man shows a caring side every now and then, and keeping it together most of the time. Strong and caring is very attractive to me.

It's not just to do with crying though, but talking about feelings. I think most women would love it if men spoke about feelings, perhaps not in the same needy way that us women do though. I mean, that drives men nuts, I'm sure they wouldn't put someone else through that if they could help it.

Another thing that men do to appear "strong" is that you'll tell them a new idea, or talk about a problem and come up with a solution yourself, and then later on the man comes up with the same solution as if it's his idea. Women see through that, and aren't impressed.

Any more ideas, please put them here. I haven't put enough. It's actually quite hard for me to imagine it, but I think this topic should be explored, preferably by women as I want to hear how they'd feel about a man appearing vulnerable, and how it would change society.


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sly279
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11 Dec 2014, 9:18 pm

smudge wrote:

In all honesty, I have never, ever minded when a man has genuinely cried in front of me (I say genuinely, because two I knew used crying to manipulate me). If anything, I thought it was sweet when it was genuine. I quite like it when a man shows a caring side every now and then, and keeping it together most of the time. Strong and caring is very attractive to me.

It's not just to do with crying though, but talking about feelings. I think most women would love it if men spoke about feelings, perhaps not in the same needy way that us women do though. I mean, that drives men nuts, I'm sure they wouldn't put someone else through that if they could help it.



why do we men have to keep it together most of the time, should women too.?
same with 2nd one

always found women complain about men not showing emotion/talking about but as soon as we do they say we are lacking confidence and unattractive. so I guess its a double edge sword :(



smudge
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12 Dec 2014, 4:03 pm

Sorry, whenever I think of a man crying/not keeping it together I think of my ex, who used to cry at everything.

Right, with that paragraph, yes, I take that back. Ignore that if you can, thanks.

I don't know what you meant by, "the second one". Do you mean men can't appear needy? Thing is, men can't stand needy women either.

It would be good to get some others commenting. I think it's something worth discussing. This forum is practically dead these days though.


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sly279
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12 Dec 2014, 7:23 pm

smudge wrote:
Sorry, whenever I think of a man crying/not keeping it together I think of my ex, who used to cry at everything.

Right, with that paragraph, yes, I take that back. Ignore that if you can, thanks.

I don't know what you meant by, "the second one". Do you mean men can't appear needy? Thing is, men can't stand needy women either.

It would be good to get some others commenting. I think it's something worth discussing. This forum is practically dead these days though.


I almost never cry in front of people, not to say I don't cry often mainly when I get supper super depressed or people got really mad at me. I hold it in and go hide in my room or where I can be alone. only cried in front of people few times mostly during the time my grandma almost died. though sometimes I can't get away.

how can someone fake cry to manipulate? o.O though perhaps its a normal ability I lack.

I don't mind needy women. I feel people should be able to be completely open with each other. aren't people then being needy with their therapists then? this subject confuses me sounds like most people want cold distant relationships which sounds awful to me. why would you want to be with a guy who apears not to want to be around you o.O



smudge
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13 Dec 2014, 3:24 pm

Why do people always assume that if not one thing, then it has to mean the complete opposite?

I never said cold and distant, anywhere. My ex DID cry to manipulate me. Women do it too sometimes, it's called emotional blackmail. It's best to stay away from people like that, man or woman.

I wish people were more open with each other too. People wouldn't have the convenience of getting what they want though.

I think I'll ask the mods to lock this topic, not because of you, but because I can clearly see others have no interest. Thanks for your input sly. :)


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13 Dec 2014, 3:53 pm

Men appearing vulnerable, discussing their feelings, well its a break with tradition for a start, change would have to begin in the early years, and be supported by society through formal education, possibly leading to gradual change.

A man that’s unafraid to express his vulnerabilities, in the current stereotyped world is imo strong and healthy. It’s something I would like to see more of, as many guys I knew committed suicide without any warning signs. I often remember a cousin of mine in particular, and wonder if only he had been able to communicate his vulnerabilities, and talk about the pressures he felt, could he have been helped...



sly279
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14 Dec 2014, 4:37 am

smudge wrote:
Why do people always assume that if not one thing, then it has to mean the complete opposite?

I never said cold and distant, anywhere. My ex DID cry to manipulate me. Women do it too sometimes, it's called emotional blackmail. It's best to stay away from people like that, man or woman.

I wish people were more open with each other too. People wouldn't have the convenience of getting what they want though.

I think I'll ask the mods to lock this topic, not because of you, but because I can clearly see others have no interest. Thanks for your input sly. :)


I just have a hard time seeing a gray zone when it comes to this topic. I've had bad luck when it comes to showing my emotions any such showing seems to get classified as lacking confidence or being clingy. bit of a sore spot to me. I really think its the fact i was raised by all women and didn't have a dad figure and few male ones. I played dolls with my sister growing up as my brother wanted nothing to do with me until I was older, even then it was much besides playing video games sometimes. probably why I'm more emotional or as men say "p****" might also be why I usually only feel safe opening up to women about my emotions. :(

that doesn't sound nice :( I try my best not to manipulate people I don't get my way most of the time.

I think the topic might get more attention in area. I not too sure on the ok of guys posting here I'm sure many others aren't either and stay away.



sly279
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14 Dec 2014, 4:39 am

Amity wrote:
Men appearing vulnerable, discussing their feelings, well its a break with tradition for a start, change would have to begin in the early years, and be supported by society through formal education, possibly leading to gradual change.

A man that’s unafraid to express his vulnerabilities, in the current stereotyped world is imo strong and healthy. It’s something I would like to see more of, as many guys I knew committed suicide without any warning signs. I often remember a cousin of mine in particular, and wonder if only he had been able to communicate his vulnerabilities, and talk about the pressures he felt, could he have been helped...


yep suicide is more prevalent in guys it seems. If/when I do it I doubt many people will expect it. I don't get to talk about it aside from here really. wish I had more people to do things with and talk to. just how things are though.



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14 Dec 2014, 5:11 am

I've never been able to hide my feelings at any given time [thanks, Stendahl's Syndrome], I wear them on me sleeves. :|



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21 Dec 2014, 5:51 pm

It's good to see that we are acknowledging that male emotional constipation is something to be addressed. I believe that there are a lot more men with mental illnesses out there than we may like to admit and that's probably because guys emotions are not taken seriously.

I think it would be great to see more male support networks for things like mental illness, domestic abuse, bereavement - anything that a person might need emotional support. I also think that these sorts of support groups need to be lead and run by men in much the same way as women's support groups are run. I think for some people, getting support and guidance who understands what it is like for you to deal with issues to do with your gender is important.

I also think that us women need to listen to men more when they express frustrations about their own gender expectations and not dismiss them as I see that far too often. Men, Women and everything inbetween need to acknowledge each others struggles and validate each others experiences before we can properly help each other.

Also, this could be a topic for another thread in the future - I personally think women are expected to be emotionally dependent all the time. I think we could cut the doods some slack if we learned to be more emotionally independent. Does that make sense?



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21 Dec 2014, 5:59 pm

we're all in this thing together, whether we realize it or not.



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21 Dec 2014, 6:27 pm

Brene Brown has some good things to say about this subject.



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22 Feb 2015, 1:33 am

smudge wrote:


Emma Watson wrote:
It is time that we all see gender as a spectrum instead of two sets of opposing ideals...

I want men to take up this mantle. So their daughters, sisters and mothers can be free from prejudice but also so that their sons have permission to be vulnerable and human too - reclaim those parts of themselves they abandoned and in doing so be a more true and complete version of themselves...

When at 18, my male friends were unable to express their feelings...

(Men) Gender equality is your issue too. Because to date, I've seen my father's role as a parent being valued less by society despite my needing his presence, as a child, as much as my mother's. I've seen young men suffering from mental illness, unable to ask for help, for fear it would make them less of a men—or less of a man. In fact, in the U.K., suicide is the biggest killer of men, between 20 to 49, eclipsing road accidents, cancer and coronary heart disease. I've seen men made fragile and insecure by a distorted sense of what constitutes male success. Men don't have the benefits of equality, either.


I recommend you watch the whole speech, as I've only managed to copy and paste parts of it. Basically, I'm talking about the part that men should be allowed to feel vulnerable without being judged by other men and women.

I know women are partly to blame for this. Society in general is to blame, because of the assumptions that are put onto both sexes.

I realise that women want men to be strong for them, to protect them and provide security. I realise there will be a big bunch of women on here saying that they actually want equality, and someone who is the same worth as them, that they prefer to always pay for themselves etc. But in all honesty, I don't see the majority of women thinking like that.

But, I think for this discussion, we'll leave the money issues aside, firstly because it's been discussed before, and secondly because I want to concentrate on the concept of men being allowed to appear vulnerable, because I think that is a far bigger (and complex) issue.

In all honesty, I have never, ever minded when a man has genuinely cried in front of me (I say genuinely, because two I knew used crying to manipulate me). If anything, I thought it was sweet when it was genuine. I quite like it when a man shows a caring side every now and then, and keeping it together most of the time. Strong and caring is very attractive to me.

It's not just to do with crying though, but talking about feelings. I think most women would love it if men spoke about feelings, perhaps not in the same needy way that us women do though. I mean, that drives men nuts, I'm sure they wouldn't put someone else through that if they could help it.

Another thing that men do to appear "strong" is that you'll tell them a new idea, or talk about a problem and come up with a solution yourself, and then later on the man comes up with the same solution as if it's his idea. Women see through that, and aren't impressed.

Any more ideas, please put them here. I haven't put enough. It's actually quite hard for me to imagine it, but I think this topic should be explored, preferably by women as I want to hear how they'd feel about a man appearing vulnerable, and how it would change society.


I do not see men crying or expressing feelings as effeminate. My father did not buy in to such stereotypes and cried on a number of occasions.



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02 Mar 2015, 5:24 am

In first post smudge says she likes men who cry in front of her, and in second post she says she hates it.

Very helpful, smudge, I salute you.



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02 Mar 2015, 9:10 am

I'm no crybaby--I haven't cried in public since I was probably 6 or 7 years old. It was indoctrinated into me that "men don't cry."

I might cry if there's something especially "touching" within a book, movie, or TV show. Nobody sees it, though.

I just don't believe, whether you're a man or a woman, that one usually has to cry over every little thing.

I don't berate somebody because he/she cries, though. There must be a good reason for it.



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02 Mar 2015, 9:35 am

I am in touch with my feelings. No one else needs to know what they are.

When someone finds out, they belittle me for my feelings in an effort to elevate themselves at my expense.

Otherwise, no one gives a damn about how I'm feeling (except for my wife).

Only when people start showing genuine concern for my emotional state will I let any of it slip through.

It isn't a matter of "being a man", it's a matter of being vulnerable in a world full of mean and exploitive people.