Extreme issues about breasts and female body

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anomie
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26 Feb 2010, 7:25 am

I have this problem so much that it is seriously affecting my life.

Please don't be offended when I say bad things about the female body. It is just how I feel about MY body.

I do not believe in gender differences in the way that most people seem to, so I feel no different from a man, except that I have this ridiculous (to me) body that makes people assume things about me when they see it. It makes them listen to me less, take me less seriously etc. All these things have been proven in experiments about how men relate to women vs. other men. There is nothing in my mind that makes me different from a man and there is certainly nothing in my mind that means I am not to be taken seriously. It is all about my body.

Of all the feminine aspects that I hate about my body, probably my (short) height is the worst, but some men are short and they have to put up with it so we can leave that aside. I just feel like a very short man, in that respect. I can tell you that being a very short man is pretty awful, but there we are.

The thing that I get most upset about is my breasts. They are average size and by all accounts very "nice" breasts. If I take an objective view I can see that they would look OK on a woman. But I don't want them. I don't like having a vagina either and would prefer a penis but like the height that is something i can just about live with. The breasts, that is what makes this really difficult for me. They feel like disgusting blobs hanging off my body. It feels so unfair that they are stuck right on the front of me like that. In the day I wear a tight crop-top/bra thing that minimises them but when I walk about naked at night I am absolutely horrified by them swinging about. They are not mine (it feels like) and do not belong on my body. I am so frustrated by them hanging there that it makes me want to cry, and on occasion I do cry. My boyfriend likes them and wants to touch them and objectively I see that this is fair enough, but I often only let him rouch them by plonking his hand on one of them directly, not brushing or stroking because that is too much sensation for me. I take his hand and plonk it on my breast myself to avoid him brushing against it by mistake.

The thing that really horrifies me is that my female body is actually WIRED UP in a female way and that means that stimulation of my nipples produces a sexual effect in a physical mechanical way and sometimes I actually have a physical desire for it and I will let him do more than just plonk his hand because I need to have the physical effects of it. My mind just has to go blank at these moments. When I get aroused I feel a sensation in my nipples and again this is extremely unpleasant and disgusting on a mental level. Sometimes I have to stop having sex and just curl up and wait, cringing in horror, for the arousal to subside.

I have looked on the internet for like-minded people and support groups but all I can find are people wanting sex-change surgery (i don't want it - I want therapy - I want to be able to love the body I have, not chop it to pieces!!) or people saying they hate their breasts because they aren't "nice".



Lene
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26 Feb 2010, 7:57 am

I used to feel really self conscious about mine too. To me, they symbolised everything 'weak' and 'pretty in pink' about being female. Once I found a few female role models whom I really respected, I became more confident and happy to be a woman and these days I don't pay a lot of attention to my breasts (I used to hide them under baggy t-shirts, or any clothing that made me look like boy).

Rather than trying to hide them, or wearing a bra or top that's too small, I'd really recommend wearing a shirt or waistcoat. These are kind of masculine, but can be very flattering for the female form too.

You sound really embarrasesd to be female. Is there a reason why? I'm not judging you, or saying you shouldn;t feel like that, but do you think there is a root to how you feel?



LostAlien
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26 Feb 2010, 8:27 am

Perhaps to go to counsilling and tell the counsilor that what you want is to learn to be happier with your body, as is, is a good idea (if that's what you want).

I understand to an extent what you are getting at. If I understand what you've said correctly, you've said that you dislike your female bits because of the feeling that people may view women as lesser in some way and that feeling makes you angry because you are equal to everyone else and that in turn makes you not like your bits. You are free to tell me that I'm wrong.



anomie
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26 Feb 2010, 8:53 am

LostAlien wrote:
If I understand what you've said correctly, you've said that you dislike your female bits because of the feeling that people may view women as lesser in some way and that feeling makes you angry because you are equal to everyone else and that in turn makes you not like your bits. You are free to tell me that I'm wrong.


It is likely that you are right. The feelings I have about my breasts do not seem to be obviously connected to that "political" sort of anger, but they might have originated with it and then got a life of their own



Llixgrjb
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26 Feb 2010, 8:54 am

Trouble finding a similar problem on the internet? Have you ever looked into behavioral neurologist V.S. Ramachandran's work? Here's an abstract from a New Yorker profile:

Quote:
...Tells about Ramachandran meeting with a man who suffers from a rare condition called apotemnophilia, the compulsion to have a perfectly healthy limb amputated. Ramachandran is known for his low-tech method, which often involves little more than interviews with patients and a few hands-on tests. He suspected that apotemnophilia was a neurological disorder and not, as Freudians have theorized, a psychological syndrome associated with repressed sexual desires. Discusses developments in the field of neurology over the past thirty years. Ramachandran and other researchers have shown that the brain is what scientists call “plastic”—it can reorganize itself. Ramachandran’s work with patients at the University of California, San Diego has led to one of the most effective treatments for chronic phantom-limb pain and to a new therapy for paralysis resulting from stroke. It has also provided suggestive insights into the physiological cause of such mystifying syndromes as synesthesia and autism. ...Mentions the work of Wilder Penfield and Michael Merzenich on the brain’s ability to reorganize itself. Describes how Pons’s paper led Ramachandran to develop a therapy for phantom-limb pain using a drugstore mirror. The therapy has since been used at Walter Reed Military Hospital with soldiers who have lost limbs in Iraq and Afghanistan. Ramachandran has also used mirror therapy to treat a chronic condition called complex regional pain syndrome, and for mobilizing the arms and legs of stroke victims with limb paralysis. Discusses Ramachandran’s work with other conditions and disorders, including the Capgras delusion and synesthesia...


I'm sorry if it looks like I'm reducing your problem to what looks like just a few wires crossed in the brain -- but this could explain everything.

I don't think I'm transsexual either. I've lived too long in this female body to make the switch and I suspect I will never feel at home in the other body either. I am repulsed by femaleness at times too; referring frequently to the vagina as "The Wound that Never Heals."



arielhawksquill
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26 Feb 2010, 9:04 am

Stimulation of men's nipples can produce sexual excitement, too.



kip
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26 Feb 2010, 9:09 am

Having the same issue myself, I can guarantee you: No man takes something with breasts seriously until you rub their face in it. And then, they are just indignant they aren't as intelligent as you in that subject. I know the problem all to well, my father raised a son and a daughter, but only has biological daughters. I grew up with my hands in engines, computers and tools, not barbies. I go to buy a computer, and as I tech, I know exactly what I want, but I always end up with some chauvinistic salesman trying to convince me he knows more than me.

I think the worst part of it is, I don't feel like I am either gender. Being a man would not make me happy, but neither does being a woman. I am neither and both, something in the middle. It's quite hard to make people understand that though, especially with these honkers knocking them out. (36H, and only because I caint find that size in a 34) I'd very much love to drop them to a much more manageable size, not remove them completely, but to move to a more androgynous state.

OP, I would suggest counselling, really. Try finding a shrink who specializes in trans people, though that's not exactly what you are, a lot of the body dysmophic issues you are having will be understood to them.


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mechanicalgirl39
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26 Feb 2010, 9:54 am

Lene wrote:
I used to feel really self conscious about mine too. To me, they symbolised everything 'weak' and 'pretty in pink' about being female. Once I found a few female role models whom I really respected, I became more confident and happy to be a woman and these days I don't pay a lot of attention to my breasts (I used to hide them under baggy t-shirts, or any clothing that made me look like boy).

Rather than trying to hide them, or wearing a bra or top that's too small, I'd really recommend wearing a shirt or waistcoat. These are kind of masculine, but can be very flattering for the female form too.

You sound really embarrasesd to be female. Is there a reason why? I'm not judging you, or saying you shouldn;t feel like that, but do you think there is a root to how you feel?


Exactly the same here. I felt dehumanized into just a baby machine.

I still feel androgyne rather than female, but that extreme revulsion and need to erase my femaleness is mostly gone.


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anomie
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26 Feb 2010, 10:46 am

mechanicalgirl39 wrote:
I still feel androgyne rather than female, but that extreme revulsion and need to erase my femaleness is mostly gone.


Do you know what you did or what changed to make it go away? Did you have counselling related to it and did that help?

I am thinking more and more that I should have counselling about this. Maybe if/when I go to a psychologist about my suspected ASD I will bring this up as well.

I looked up about Ramachandran and people with a desire to have a limb amputated. I found it interesting that it is treated so differently depending on whether the part you want rid of is a sexual organ or not. A doctor would not dream of cutting off someone's foot no matter how much they begged and no matter how much they hated their foot. But a doctor will cut off a man's penis or a woman's breasts if they want it. That seems inconsistent to me.

I



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26 Feb 2010, 11:44 am

@anomie what you have posted sounds like many guys I dated who had transitioned. No offense, but it does. You need to get beyond the surgery aspect. You have a really mistaken (and quite ignorant) perspective on this matter. You see it more as a mutilation aspect (or chopping up), when it really is not. I am not going to say definatively you are trans, but you certianly sound like every trans guy I ever knew (save for the surgery perspective).

I have seen about half a dozen trans guys transition, some of them I dated, some of them still are close friends. The number one issue is always the breasts. You are in no way unique in everything you are putting forth.

I really think you need to work these issues out with a therapist, and honestly, it may be a good idea to become friends with a few trans men to better understand thier perspective. Right now I think you have alot of incorrect ideas. I think you may get a different perspect on the issue, rather than OMG its mutilation and cutting up your body and sex change surgery, its more complicated than that, and you are not coming from a knowledgeable place. I think that if you seek out a therapist who works with trans men and gender identity issues (many are well versed on ASD as well since it seems to be pervasive in many trans men).

On the surgery aspect. Most of the guys I knew had top surgery. I will say in no way is it equivent to removing a limb. Not even close. Because sexual features are so tied to identity and gender, that if gender is incongruence with those sex features it causes fairly extreme issues if it is not dealt with. It may be hard to wrap your head around right now, but that is because you are coming from a place of relative ignorance. Removing breasts on most women because of cancer usually has an extremely damaging psychological effect, thats why implants on breast cancer survivors is considered "medically necessary" because their identity as women are tied to them. The same is true for breast growth for men with gynecomastia, breast removal is seen as medically necessary because it is at odds as thier identity as men. The breasts do not physically harm them, but it is psychologically traumatizing. Trans men, it is quite literally the same as men with gynecomastia, breasts are at odds as thier identity as men. That is the best way to explain it. The viewpoint you have is significantly oversimplified.

Loving the body you have is not something that works if you don't feel the body you have is right for you, if its fundimentally alien, and does not match who you are. The fact is you have a major issues to work out, and issues that have been worked out many times before (successfuly). You dislike being female, and everything physical that is associated with it, but want therapy to make you accept and love the body you have. I am sorry to say this, but reparative therapy does not work. You need to find a way to deal with these gender identity issues, and that might mean transitioning, at least once you get a better perspective on what transitioning means.

I can go into the other issues. But honestly, I think you need to get a better perspective than you have now. You are having gender incongruence issues at the same level as most trans men I know had, with alot of misperceptions coupled along with them. I really wish one of the trans men on the board would reply to this.



odd42
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26 Feb 2010, 12:43 pm

regardless of your own gender (how you feel, not what you physically are), this sounds as though it is largely a function of self-perception and body acceptance. sorting out the cognitions and thoughts you have, as they relate to the feelings you have will likely bring about a much great sense of acceptance. look for someone who engages in cognitive-behavioral therapy, i would be concerned that someone with a psychodynamic or psychoanalytic approach would be looking for a deep-seated childhood issue which may or may not be relevant, if it is, that would become apparent when CBT did not work! then you can go for the long-haul therapy of a psychodynamic approach!



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26 Feb 2010, 1:00 pm

Been there, been through it. People treat you differently because you're female, and females are second class citizens. I find that hard to accept, but it's true. I did the tight undershirt thing, the always wearing a vest thing. Took a long time to accept these bumps that appeared early and got noticed uncomfortably. But you can focus on other things and people can notice you for your ideas, your work, et cetera. When you're older, people won't be so goggle eyed about it, and the vest thing works in the meantime. It's just biology -- messy reality, and that's the way it is. Look at fungi and other weird things that grow in the ground. We're all part of that. No big deal. It's how nature works. Somehow I find that soothing, like looking at the stars and realizing how small we are.

I really disagree with someone telling you you sound like a trans guy. That's really for you to decide, just like no one should probably be telling a trans guy he should just smarten up unless he asks for advice. I've been thought to be a guy many times, and been told I should be a gay female, etc, etc. Forget those people, with all due respect.

Anyway, I'm androgynous, too, and that's fine by me. I just try to accept what I am. There's a big cultural discussion about people who are on a gender spectrum rather than in one of two pigeonhole categories, so you might find that a worthwhile discussion.



Last edited by Ladarzak on 26 Feb 2010, 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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26 Feb 2010, 1:00 pm

odd42 wrote:
regardless of your own gender (how you feel, not what you physically are), this sounds as though it is largely a function of self-perception and body acceptance. sorting out the cognitions and thoughts you have, as they relate to the feelings you have will likely bring about a much great sense of acceptance. look for someone who engages in cognitive-behavioral therapy, i would be concerned that someone with a psychodynamic or psychoanalytic approach would be looking for a deep-seated childhood issue which may or may not be relevant, if it is, that would become apparent when CBT did not work! then you can go for the long-haul therapy of a psychodynamic approach!


I think it goes beyond self-perception and body acceptance. From what she is putting out, it runs much deeper than that. There are issues with her social role accross the board in addition to the physical incongruence issues. I am not sure CBT the way you describe would be a good idea, and the truth is she probably needs a therapist who works on gender or LGBTQ issues (in addition to the ASD).


I am only putting this forth because like I said, I have known other trans guys, and you sound exactly like them. At the same time I have known and dated some genderqueer women as well, with the genderqueer folks there is usually more of a self acceptance of ones body. But their personal attitudes towards gender I often found slightly different than the trans guys. What you put forth in your original post may have well been carbon copied from many of trans men I knew right until the end. Then again, how people work out these issues and where they end up only happens after therapy and exposure to folks on the gender spectrum. You very well might be genderqueer. Everybody who does this, does this in thier own way. But if you feel you need to take on the issue though, you also need to get rid of your misconceptions, which without question are there.



LostAlien
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26 Feb 2010, 3:46 pm

A thing to remember, gender identity issues are sometimes part of AS.

The main thing to remember, regardless of what other people say, you are the authority on yourself. You will know what is best for you and other people can only advise anomie.



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26 Feb 2010, 4:44 pm

anomie wrote:
mechanicalgirl39 wrote:
I still feel androgyne rather than female, but that extreme revulsion and need to erase my femaleness is mostly gone.


Do you know what you did or what changed to make it go away? Did you have counselling related to it and did that help?

I am thinking more and more that I should have counselling about this. Maybe if/when I go to a psychologist about my suspected ASD I will bring this up as well.

I looked up about Ramachandran and people with a desire to have a limb amputated. I found it interesting that it is treated so differently depending on whether the part you want rid of is a sexual organ or not. A doctor would not dream of cutting off someone's foot no matter how much they begged and no matter how much they hated their foot. But a doctor will cut off a man's penis or a woman's breasts if they want it. That seems inconsistent to me.

I


I'm so sorry, anomie. I would share it with you if I could. But I'm not really sure what made it go away.

Nope I didn't get counselling. I just obsessed a lot about the idea of an androgyne and wanted to be one and talked a lot about how I hated having breasts and how I didn't want them because they were for feeding babies and I didn't want babies and didn't like being dehumanized into just a baby machine. Other people just accepted that I was weird like that and said if I still felt that strongly when I was older I should pay to have them removed.

Again, I'm sorry. I would help you if I could.

Good luck. :(


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26 Feb 2010, 7:08 pm

Sorry for barging in to a forum where I don't belong, but perhaps I could add some perspective.
I've never been fully comfortable with my body/gender either, and I feel kind of the same way (I have something hanging on the front too, and I can't say it feels particularly comfortable or glamorous either). Not to the point of wanting a sex change, but just enough to feel weird. But I think I'm beginning to accept myself more lately. It seems to be mostly about not associating my body with non-physical concepts. Just because I have a male body doesn't mean I have to associate myself with the negative/destructive aspects of conventional masculinity. To put it in perhaps a bit stupid terms: Stop blaming your boobs for the problems in society. We all have bodies, and I assure you the male body is in no way superior to the female body, just as the male mind isn't superior to the female mind.
Observation from the other side: It feels disgusting to have a penis and scrotum, too.
I hope that helps add some perspective.


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