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Tequila
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04 May 2010, 12:59 pm

Nostromos wrote:
Get fat, it's really underrated.


But then you have the problem with even creepier guys like me getting attracted... ;)



Yasmine
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04 May 2010, 1:21 pm

Chronos wrote:
What is the dating culture in Norway like?


You date among friends really or friend's friends. It's a thing based chemistry and just seeing where thing goes. And you don't really go on 'date' dates. It's more like making excuses to see each other lol :P My last boyfriend I got by us both lingering on till all our friends had gone, he walked me home, we made sure we were going to be the same place the next day..
And also men and women are friends without there ever being a romantic context. So you know, that puts the edge off it all being a contest or something.
Talking to someone with no other pretext than djee I like the way you look is not really done. Every time it's happened to me it turns out to be men with severe problems one way or another. Often psychological. And understandably it comes off as very pushy. And that's you know... the ones who passed as normal at first. Not counting the ones that I brushed off at once for being creepy.

Perhaps this is normal in USA/Canada too, it's just my impression that it's not. But then again I'm getting my impression from Hollywood and male friends why all have Aspergers so...



Nostromos
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04 May 2010, 8:53 pm

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Have you ever had your personal space repeatedly invaded by people bigger and stronger than you?


I have my personal space invaded every day by provocatively dressed women who tell me I'm worthless with well-timed sniffs, stinky little looks, double-talk snippets of their conversations aimed at me, and a galaxy of subtly insulting types of body language. I'm not telling you this here because I'm crazy, it's so I can help you see that men get kicked around by women just as bad, and we get less help and almost no empathy for it because it's far more subtle.



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04 May 2010, 10:07 pm

I don't have this problem. Somehow I have managed to be unapproachable all my adult life. That said I am not a virgin and I have a daughter. I must have had a lapse and was charming a few times then. I was always mistaken for a snob because I would not look guys in the eye, especially if I glanced and saw them checking me out. I don't like being stared at. When I was in my 20s i was stared at everywhere I went. I am stared at now, but not as much. I dont get approached though. I have red hair too. I am tall-ish and thin with a good figure- I have been called "hot" even though I am almost 40.
,

What is my secret? I will give it to you absolutely free!

I walk very quickly, and I don't look at people. I avoid any staring, leering, smiling men even if they are standing near something I need in the store. I will go back to that aisle later or never if it comes to that. If they say anything when I walk briskly by I walk even faster and don't respond. If they come up to me I back up and I have been known to shove my hand in my purse. They will usually throw up their hands in a surrender pose.



hartzofspace
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04 May 2010, 11:05 pm

Nostromos wrote:
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Have you ever had your personal space repeatedly invaded by people bigger and stronger than you?


I have my personal space invaded every day by provocatively dressed women who tell me I'm worthless with well-timed sniffs, stinky little looks, double-talk snippets of their conversations aimed at me, and a galaxy of subtly insulting types of body language. I'm not telling you this here because I'm crazy, it's so I can help you see that men get kicked around by women just as bad, and we get less help and almost no empathy for it because it's far more subtle.

Sorry that happens to you. I have also heard of men calling domestic violence shelters and asking for sanctuary from abusive female partners.

Men and women should try to learn from each other, I think, rather than the men scoffing when women share their pain. Especially in the womens forum!


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sgrannel
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04 May 2010, 11:06 pm

Yasmine wrote:
sgrannel wrote:
What are the odds that all these men really are creepy losers? Could it be that you have been defining any man who approaches you as a creepy loser only because he approached you? Why would you do that? To me this behavior seems creepy, and in the long run it will also make you a loser.


What is up with you and therange? Don't you think I can separate a normal guy and a guy purposedly violating my personal space. Sorry if I don't like the disgusting guy that approaches me drunkenly every time he sees me to say how red hair I have. I'm sorry but when I ignore someone and that person still tries maybe 5 times more it is creepy. That person has pretty much said with he actions "I don't respect your space".

And also I live in Norway. We don't have your kind of dating culture. It is in no way normal to walk up to a stranger to talk them up. In my experience only people with no respect for boundaries/women does that here... The few times I have been more gentle with them they develop into stalkers.


OK, so the culture is different. Or maybe not so different. It is quite common over here for a guy to be rejected if he approaches a stranger. This makes dating difficult because how are you supposed to get into a relationship with someone new? Everyone you know was new at some point. Personally, I have no idea what it's like to get the flood of attention that you seem to be taking for granted, but I'd be willing to give it a try. By defining anyone who approaches you as creepy, all who approach you will be creepy, by definition. It's called "begging the question".

It's an unwritten social rule that people of similar or comparable quality tend to gravitate toward one another. Like it or not, all these guys who have been approaching you are probably somewhere near your level. If you call all these guys losers, then the NT interpretation is that you're also indirectly calling yourself a loser. I don't want to be called a loser and I don't want to hang out with anyone who has indirectly called herself a loser, which means that what you have been saying here makes you appear undesirable to me even though I have no idea what you look like. Are you happy now?



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05 May 2010, 1:52 am

Yasmine wrote:
Perhaps this is normal in USA/Canada too, it's just my impression that it's not. But then again I'm getting my impression from Hollywood and male friends why all have Aspergers so...


Well dating among groups of friends and friends of friends certainly does occur, and is probably the more desirable way to meet someone, but there are times and places where it would not be inappropriate to approach someone. All out "come ons" are frowned upon though, and usually never work anyway.

As for Hollywood, well, I don't have TV but I live in the area and certainly see enough movie sets to know, almost nothing you see on TV or in the movies is real!

As a rule, Hollywood overdramatizes things by about ten fold. If we existed in a world that was a movie set, I think we'd never have trouble reading people.

[/quote]



Yasmine
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05 May 2010, 4:38 am

sgrannel wrote:

OK, so the culture is different. Or maybe not so different. It is quite common over here for a guy to be rejected if he approaches a stranger. This makes dating difficult because how are you supposed to get into a relationship with someone new? Everyone you know was new at some point. Personally, I have no idea what it's like to get the flood of attention that you seem to be taking for granted, but I'd be willing to give it a try. By defining anyone who approaches you as creepy, all who approach you will be creepy, by definition. It's called "begging the question".


Everyone you know was new at some point, but the normal thing is to pick up friends from school, work, sports and get to know your friends friends ectetera. A guy who approaches out of nowhere is not normal, and every time I have taken the time to talk to them the have major problems with attitude. And also, you are calling this attention? I'd call it harassment. I get attention too, and I know the difference.


sgrannel wrote:
It's an unwritten social rule that people of similar or comparable quality tend to gravitate toward one another. Like it or not, all these guys who have been approaching you are probably somewhere near your level. If you call all these guys losers, then the NT interpretation is that you're also indirectly calling yourself a loser. I don't want to be called a loser and I don't want to hang out with anyone who has indirectly called herself a loser, which means that what you have been saying here makes you appear undesirable to me even though I have no idea what you look like. Are you happy now?


I'm happy about the part where I am undesirable to you. The point of this discussion I believe.
No that is not the NT-interpretation. I bet you caring about this at all have something to do with NT women rejecting you. At least you talk about it much. So following your NTs-are-right attitude, rejection too is warranted. Probably more often than not. Plenty of guys out there with delusions. And you seem to think I reject anyone and everyone. Believe it or not I get plenty of interest from normal men that follow the normal social protocol. You know the one with acceptable behaviour that does not make me wonder about the sanity of the person in question?



Yasmine
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05 May 2010, 4:38 am

sgrannel wrote:

OK, so the culture is different. Or maybe not so different. It is quite common over here for a guy to be rejected if he approaches a stranger. This makes dating difficult because how are you supposed to get into a relationship with someone new? Everyone you know was new at some point. Personally, I have no idea what it's like to get the flood of attention that you seem to be taking for granted, but I'd be willing to give it a try. By defining anyone who approaches you as creepy, all who approach you will be creepy, by definition. It's called "begging the question".


Everyone you know was new at some point, but the normal thing is to pick up friends from school, work, sports and get to know your friends friends ectetera. A guy who approaches out of nowhere is not normal, and every time I have taken the time to talk to them the have major problems with attitude. And also, you are calling this attention? I'd call it harassment. I get attention too, and I know the difference.


sgrannel wrote:
It's an unwritten social rule that people of similar or comparable quality tend to gravitate toward one another. Like it or not, all these guys who have been approaching you are probably somewhere near your level. If you call all these guys losers, then the NT interpretation is that you're also indirectly calling yourself a loser. I don't want to be called a loser and I don't want to hang out with anyone who has indirectly called herself a loser, which means that what you have been saying here makes you appear undesirable to me even though I have no idea what you look like. Are you happy now?


I'm happy about the part where I am undesirable to you. The point of this discussion I believe.
No that is not the NT-interpretation. I bet you caring about this at all have something to do with NT women rejecting you. At least you talk about it much. So following your NTs-are-right attitude, rejection too is warranted. Probably more often than not. Plenty of guys out there with delusions. And you seem to think I reject anyone and everyone. Believe it or not I get plenty of interest from normal men that follow the normal social protocol. You know the one with acceptable behaviour that does not make me wonder about the sanity of the person in question?



Yasmine
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05 May 2010, 4:40 am

Nostromos wrote:
Quote:
Have you ever had your personal space repeatedly invaded by people bigger and stronger than you?


I have my personal space invaded every day by provocatively dressed women who tell me I'm worthless with well-timed sniffs, stinky little looks, double-talk snippets of their conversations aimed at me, and a galaxy of subtly insulting types of body language. I'm not telling you this here because I'm crazy, it's so I can help you see that men get kicked around by women just as bad, and we get less help and almost no empathy for it because it's far more subtle.


"Men are scared that women will laugh at them. Women are scared that men will kill them."

My heart goes out to you. *sarcasm*



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05 May 2010, 9:53 am

Yasmine wrote:
sgrannel wrote:
If you call all these guys losers, then the NT interpretation is that you're also indirectly calling yourself a loser.


No that is not the NT-interpretation. I bet you caring about this at all have something to do with NT women rejecting you. At least you talk about it much. So following your NTs-are-right attitude, rejection too is warranted.


Oh, yes it is a specifically NT interpretation, because interpretations of this sort require digging deeper by a few levels, which I can generally do only after the fact when I have left a situation and I have time to think about it. It's only in recent years that I have been able to figure out that there are other levels of communication and that there are so many things that people read into what you say and do. One of these things is, that if you knock the people around you, then you are also indirectly knocking yourself.

It takes a lot of work to get a handle on giving people an accurate impression of yourself. I'm not saying NTs are always right. In fact, much of the time their attempts to read my emotions and infer what's going on with me lead them to incorrect conclusions. But rather, they have an augmented communication, portions of which can be considered to be specifically NT.



hartzofspace
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05 May 2010, 12:29 pm

sgrannel wrote:
One of these things is, that if you knock the people around you, then you are also indirectly knocking yourself.

Where in the OP's comments, is she "knocking people?" She is objecting to UNWANTED attention. Just because some people here would like any kind of attention at all, doesn't mean it suits everyone! She has also pointed out that she receives normal attention, which she does not object to. I think there is a little projection going on here... :roll:


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05 May 2010, 4:15 pm

hartzofspace wrote:
sgrannel wrote:
One of these things is, that if you knock the people around you, then you are also indirectly knocking yourself.

Where in the OP's comments, is she "knocking people?" She is objecting to UNWANTED attention. Just because some people here would like any kind of attention at all, doesn't mean it suits everyone! She has also pointed out that she receives normal attention, which she does not object to. I think there is a little projection going on here... :roll:


OK, so can you define the difference between wanted and unwanted attention, according to some other criterion besides wantedness? If you can't, then it's back to "begging the question".

There is no unwanted attention, if the attention you receive is wanted.

If you receive less total attention, then your threshold for wantedness may lower. By saying that you receive a lot of unwanted attention, you are advertising that a lot of men must want you, more than you want, and that you have the luxury of being very picky. However, if overdone, this act can appear fake. Goodwill can also be destroyed if a hard-to-get act is taken too far.

She's knocking them when she says they're creepy losers.



hartzofspace
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05 May 2010, 4:39 pm

sgrannel wrote:
hartzofspace wrote:
sgrannel wrote:
One of these things is, that if you knock the people around you, then you are also indirectly knocking yourself.

Where in the OP's comments, is she "knocking people?" She is objecting to UNWANTED attention. Just because some people here would like any kind of attention at all, doesn't mean it suits everyone! She has also pointed out that she receives normal attention, which she does not object to. I think there is a little projection going on here... :roll:


sgrannel wrote:
OK, so can you define the difference between wanted and unwanted attention, according to some other criterion besides wantedness? If you can't, then it's back to "begging the question".

Alright, here is an example. I am going to assume you are straight, and would prefer to date members of the opposite sex. Supposing you began to experience the following: You leave your house to visit a store, or just go for a walk. A strange male begins to proposition you, suggest sexual acts, or stand uncomfortably close. Worse, when you decide you don't want this kind of attention from this particular person, and tell them so, they continue to suggest the acts, and continue to stand uncomfortably close. Maybe they even touch you, grinning all the while. If, in your mind, you genuinely do not want this to continue, and it does, no matter what you say or do, this is UNWANTED ATTENTION. Further, supposing after telling this person very clearly to let you alone, you find that they are now stalking you. Perhaps they find out where you live, and stand staring up at your bedroom window, hoping to get a glimpse of you...I hope you get my drift.

Now. An example of wanted, or at least not offensive attention. Perhaps you see what you deem to be an attractive woman. She notices you, and comes over to converse with you. Even if she is only inquiring about directions to a nearby establishment, you are enjoying this. She is attractive, well spoken, polite, and you are really hoping that you can get to know her better. Or say a rather unattractive woman does the same, but you really don't mind interacting with her for a few moments. Even if nothing comes of it, you didn't mind the incident. These are examples of wanted, or at least not objectionable attention.

sgrannel wrote:
There is no unwanted attention, if the attention you receive is wanted.

True. But the OP is referring to that which is not wanted by her. Big difference. If she were at a social event, hoping to meet someone, then all interaction is at least welcome, until the person shows themselves to be objectionable, or disrespectful of the OP's wishes. A woman has a right to refuse attention, no matter how it is offered.

sgrannel wrote:
By saying that you receive a lot of unwanted attention, you are advertising that a lot of men must want you, more than you want.

Not necessarily! She is complaining about being stalked and harassed, and by people that she has no desire to interact with. Why can't you understand the difference between light flirtation, and inappropriate behavior?

sgrannel wrote:
However, if overdone, this act can appear fake. Goodwill can also be destroyed if a hard-to-get act is taken too far. She's knocking them when she says they're creepy losers.

Again, she is not playing hard to get. She is expressing fear and frustration at feeling helpless in the face of men who are not respecting her boundaries. No woman is obligated to please every man who shows interest in her.


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Yasmine
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05 May 2010, 6:08 pm

sgrannel wrote:

If you receive less total attention, then your threshold for wantedness may lower. By saying that you receive a lot of unwanted attention, you are advertising that a lot of men must want you, more than you want, and that you have the luxury of being very picky. However, if overdone, this act can appear fake. Goodwill can also be destroyed if a hard-to-get act is taken too far.
.


Wow, you're really treating this as a numbers game.. witch proves you do not get the point at all. No matter how little attention I get this attention will always be unwanted.

Why are you even in the womens section? There is a reason I didn't post this in Love and Dating... If you want to answer my question then fine, but coming here destroying my thread, basically arguing that I should take whatever and whoever comes my way, and doing a whole lot of projecting.. is not ok. Please leave.



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05 May 2010, 6:25 pm

This is the Women's Discussion subforum; while the input of male members is not restricted, there is the expectation of appropriate behavior and response which has not been shown by a number in this conversation. In turn, further engaging those individuals instead of reporting the problem only furthers the problem instead of proving productive. In the shortest form - knock it off, period. If you have nothing productive to say, keep the misogyny to yourself and create your own thread (in L&D, InDepthAdult, Adult, where-have-you) regarding your own personal experiences. But enough is enough - consider this to be a warning to all involved, including those whose "contributions" were removed. Further instances will have further consequences.


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