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Luthylou
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04 Oct 2015, 5:32 pm

This seems like an ironic place to post this but I suppose it's the most appropriate. I need to have a rant and ranting at neurotypical women feels like yelling at a brick wall. I'm feeling very alone and need to be in an aspie friendly space for this discussion. I'm also LGBT and will be using such language so please ask for clarification if I use any terms you don't understand.

So to start with I feel like autism has almost entirely shaped my gender identity and presentation, so while I present as female, obviously my experiences have not been much like those of my neurotypical peers. When I was a teenager I'd observe my school chums arguing over which clothes shop was better and swooning over incredibly average boys in dull magazines, from the very edges of my world, and found their behaviour so bizarre I genuinely assumed I'd be allowed to ignore it and carry on writing musicals and talking about this one reality TV show I loved for the rest of my life.

I went to an expensive all girls school that revolved entirely around academia and business, so personal development and exploration went to hell really. Mental health issues abounded and looking back there were a lot of undiagnosed aspies who completely slipped through the net, myself included. In an environment like that you had no control over your life whatsoever, I grew up not knowing what a vocational course was or a technical school. I grew up thinking going to University was practically compulsory, and predictably, once there I didn't get any of the support I now know I needed and didn't finish my degree, because my survival was more important. I lost my entire family over it. I'd rather be alive with no degree than dead with said piece of paper.

This also means that I grew up surrounded by women hell bent on policing my every single word and move. We had a uniform so strict you'd get told off for your hairband being the wrong shade of red. Not only was I surrounded by baffling social norms (the magazines and clothes and boyfriends these people seemed to find out of nowhere), but this school also told us on an almost daily basis that we had to 'break through the glass ceiling and surpass men in business.' I don't know what kind of child/teenager is supposed to understand what that even means in the 21st century but it constantly surrounded us with this narrative that we were 'lesser' if we didn't devote our lives to this one goal of having the career goals of a man while still reinforcing patriarchal expectations of how we were supposed to behave as women. We were still supposed to be cisgender, straight, get a degree then marry a man then have children. I'd assume these sorts of messages would be confusing for any girl growing up but they made so little sense to me that I basically ignored them and thought I'd always be allowed to do so.

I was also raised by a single mother who poured a heartbreaking amount of time and effort into making sure I fit in rather than making sure I was happy. She was a spiteful, sad case who allowed her own mother to steal her happiness from her and then has hated me for not letting me doing the same. It hadn't occurred to her that I was neurologically incapable of manipulating her or others in that way or understanding that someone would want to make me unhappy out of spite. It wasn't until I was older that I learned that women will stab each other in the back to get what they want because they're socialised to think that that is how to survive under patriarchy.

So I have grown up around women policing my every thought, move and act and it seems they despise me for daring to not have understood until now that there was some daft script I was expected to follow in fulfilling my gender role. I listen to women talk about domestic violence from men, street harrassment from men, men telling them to 'cheer up, love' and to smile, all manner of sexist microaggressions and aggressions not so micro. I recently read an article (that this website won't let me post as a 'new user'), which was written by a person who had transitioned from female to male, and listed the privileges that he had subsequently gained and microaggressions that he experienced while presenting as female that he no longer experienced as a man. I looked down these lists in utter horror realising that I've experienced almost all of these things from women and very few if any from men. I have boobs the size of footballs and have never had harrassment from men. I get women telling me what to wear, how to walk, what look to have on my face. Men don't seem to give a crap, they just accept me for me and don't question that my behaviour is a bit outside what's expected. Women have been intimidated by my autism and abandoned me again and again and again, often in psychologically catastrophic ways while (mostly) men have picked up the pieces (but often trans women, who seem to have abundant compassion for the marginalised and demonised among us). It's almost as if I challenge womens' desperate need to reinforce patriarchal damage amongst themselves with my obliviousness of how I'm 'supposed' to dress and behave. How DARE I not care how I look? How DARE I walk like a bricklayer and wear what I want and say what I think, without actively trying to make some feminist statement?

So because of this I have never felt safe in women only spaces. They are often not very queer friendly, transphobic (exclude trans women), and end up reinforcing the damaging sort of rubbish they claim to fight against. It seems my apparent 'refusal' to fit into a standard female gender role upsets women a whole lot more than it bothers (or provokes) men. And the absolute worst of all, is how DARE I suggest that women can be abusive (and have been to me my entire life), and men can be perfectly safe and supportive (and mostly have been my entire life). And if I DARE open my mouth in any space that claims to be safe for women to discuss abuse, 9 times out of 10 I get a woman telling me to shut up when I talk about being treated like trash by other women my entire life. And this, folks, is the loneliest thing in the world.

Now the great cosmic joke in all of this, I ought to mention, is I happen to be a lesbian. When I think about it in terms of straight women dating these 'menz' (I HATE that word) that they all then proclaim have abused them routinely, perhaps it's along a similar thread. There are good men and bad men, good women and bad women. I don't want to belittle anyone's experience of abuse of any kind because it's a serious matter. I adore my girlfriend, I love her madly and she has not treated me like most women do. She's bothered to educate herself on autism and has tried her best to understand why I behave the way I do rather than just bailing out like everyone else without a word or backwards glance. She is also trans and her need to wear pretty clothes and makeup is a matter of safety in public spaces rather than an issue of perceived gender expectations. But she feels safe in spaces that I don't, and goes on feminist marches and meetings and generally has a great time in this group that she seems to connect with. While I'm happy for her, it fills me with woe that I don't have such a safe space or group, like I say I literally cannot bring up the topic of being abused by women and feeling mostly safe around men without having a woman tell me to shut up (backed up by other women). It makes me feel even more unsafe, particularly if it's a queer space, and makes me feel like I truly don't belong anywhere. From what my girlfriend has told me about experiences of losing male privileges I now don't doubt that sexism exists. It's just that my experience of ableism is a daily occurence and my experience of sexism practically non-existent, and I understand now that it's because of a mixture of my perception of the world around me (and the things I don't notice), and presumably the way I present and the vibes I give off that somehow don't make men want to catcall me but make women want to 'correct' my behaviour/ clothing/ facial expressions at all costs.

So please, please aspie women out there try to understand where I'm coming from with this. I feel so alone and I can't hate women 'cause I'm a flaming lesbian. The only place left for me to turn is here where people will at least understand my differences in behaviour and that my understanding of the world is different (and my undestanding of how a woman is 'supposed' to behave and respond to certain things.) Can anyone at all relate? At all?
Thanks, Sophie :(



Luthylou
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05 Oct 2015, 4:23 am

Greetings, I'm glad no-one's replied yet 'cause I've slept on this and I have things to add.

As a woman with autism (and I know many can relate), I realise that I also have an underdeveloped sense of danger in social situations, not being able to accurately read body language or peoples' intentions or motives. For example when my girlfriend and I are walking home late at night around drunk men, she feels extremely unsafe when all I see are a bunch of guys just being silly, but I don't feel in any danger. But ofcourse my anxiety manifests itself differently.... for example if I were in a place where there were lots of loud sounds that just ended up being a huge cacophony of terrifying noise my brain would go "Danger, danger!", when other people would just be able to put each sound in their context and their brain goes, "Oh yes it's loud but that's what it's all supposed to sound like." If a random guy grabbed my arse, I'd be annoyed that my space was invaded for a split second, but brain would just say "that was unusual behaviour,", while others would read that this guy is probably about to do something worse if you don't run, and their brain is going "Danger, danger!", like it should. But the difference is even if I can intellectually understand that someone might mean harm, (which I often don't), there is no actual physiological fear response like there is with sensory overload. I'd like to say that having a blank look on my face rather than one of terror in these situations would keep me safer, but who knows. I want to use it to protect my girlfriend, who being trans, is in more actual danger than me. I do notice the looks she gets in the street from men and the relief she feels around groups of women and realise that for her (and presumably for most other women) it's an issue of literal safety.

I also wanted to add that many women only spaces exclude gender nonbinary people and trans people. When there's a focus on periods and babies I always feel uncomfortable, as many of my fellow aspie women here might, if we don't feel maternal instincts or an alignment for our expected gender roles, or comfortable with our female bodies. As a lesbian I generally feel excluded as well in mostly heterosexual spaces, but I can also feel dreadful, sometimes worse, in queer spaces because if they've gone to that much effort of inclusion I'm even more likely to slip through the net and for my voice to be silenced again and again.

I might not have made it clear in my last post but I want to reiterate that I in no way want to belittle the experiences of survivors of violence from men (perhaps it sounds like I have? I have trouble knowing how things sound to other people!), but in terms of my own experiences I genuinely feel....'on the wrong planet' on the issue. I often listen to women tell me about how awful men have been to them and how welcoming women have been to them and smile and nod and feel a bit sick afterwards, as much as I might like that person and want to support them in their struggles (and repeat, notbelittle their suffering.) Very recently I dared to say that I've had opposite experiences to that and got very dirty looks. Also recently I was made suddenly homeless by an older woman I liked very much and trusted. Now that I'm a bit older I thought it was something that would go away in time but now my faith is hanging on a thread somewhat, as wonderful and supportive as my girlfriend has been for me. I'm just praying for the day that ONE woman sits down with me and tells me that women have routinely treated them like trash for as long as they can remember, even in women friendly or queer spaces, and men have generally accepted their eccentricities without batting an eyelid. I just need someone to tell me that I'm not the only one in the world with these experiences, because there is no bus back to planet aspie :(.



kraftiekortie
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05 Oct 2015, 8:09 am

I know I'm a man, and shouldn't be responding to this:

But you seem like an okay person. It's hard being an Aspie sometimes. At least you've gotten a decent education, so you could use your research skills to tide you over until you find a suitable person.

You also have to make sure people respect you--by calling them out when it is obvious that they are not respecting you.



The_Face_of_Boo
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05 Oct 2015, 8:11 am

I wanted to reply before but I hesitated, I was waiting for a lady to reply first, some women here were very hostile toward some men here simply because they posted in a supposedly-women-only thread.

What you are complaining about is a very common complaint by non-typical women who frequent women-only spaces or movements. I know a non-white feminist who often complains about racism against poc and trans-phobia among mainstream feminism.

Generally speaking, any person who is not typical to his/her own gender, is often bashed more by his/her own gender - ie. a boy who is feminine, would be mostly bullied by boys physically and verbally (ie. calling him sissy and such) more often than by girls.

I believe it is same for girls who are tomboys or not typical.



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05 Oct 2015, 8:27 am

I'm a woman but I've never felt fully comfortable around and fully accepted by most other women I've come in contact with. Any truly good female friends I've had are few and far between. Most women seem to make me feel rejected socially, criticized, mocked (overtly and/or behind my back) and generally I've just never fit in with most women. I've gotten along better with men, although sometimes those men were only being my friend for ulterior motives, or mocked me behind my back too, so, not an entirely relaxing situation there either.

But yeah, I'm not a "regular" woman even though I think I am in many ways -- apart from being on the spectrum. Which probably is a lot of why I'm not, and why other women sense I'm not part of them even though I think it's not showing, hah.

Since childhood, I've found that most all-girl/all-women situations often descend into cattiness, something I don't want to be a part of. The cattiness is often aimed at me, so there's that. I think women turn on each other quite nastily despite any ideal they hold of sticking together. It always dismays me because, in the world in general, we already have to deal with so many things male society makes problematic for us, that surely we shouldn't be giving each other grief too? Yet we do. This is why I'm always wary of women. It doesn't help that I had a sister who was horrible to me and I guess that was my first experience of a fellow-female NOT being on my side in life, but very much hateful and against me.



Luthylou
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05 Oct 2015, 2:37 pm

Thankyou for all your positive replies, this was all very difficult to write. It's just a very sad irony that I've experienced so much patriarchal nonsense from women and so little from men and I can't explain that to other women and be taken seriously, or met with hostility as is more usually the case. I realise that autism is the missing link and my experience of sexism is through a lens of not understanding gender expectations or understanding the behaviour of others. It still baffles me though at the age of 23 that women continue to terrorise me for being different, and I can't bring it up without being met with yet more aggression. I'm glad no-one's yet told me to 'go hang out with those men you feel so safe around' through barred teeth (I keep half expecting it.) Thankyou for being a safe space for me here, guys.



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05 Oct 2015, 5:47 pm

There are many nice women whom you could talk to.

Most women here are sensible. And intelligent.



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05 Oct 2015, 5:53 pm

I agree Kraftie. The women at WrongPlanet are not as prone to power games as IRL.

For the most part, I like it here.



gee_dee
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06 Oct 2015, 1:02 pm

I've increasingly had this experience too. I couldn't figure it out for the longest time but have come to realise that women are expected to behave in certain ways far more so than men and if you don't fit in with the clique then it's like they just don't know what the hell to do with you...



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06 Oct 2015, 1:09 pm

In fact I wrote here not too long ago about an NT female friend who initially appeared to accept my AS but started making digs at my behaviour and reproaching me for not acting more like a "normal" woman (evidently being a mind reader and physically affectionate), and it's definitely all the more alienating when people just don't believe you when you say that often women can be just as much if not more judgemental than men :?



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06 Oct 2015, 1:49 pm

I'm a bit afraid of women too.

There is always at least one in a group of women who try to give me a bad time, or at least hint madly at me that they hate me. Hate because, the aggressive type of person tends to be a black and white thinker after all.

It's partly because my hair has a tendency to go messy. It's partly because I find it hard to smile. Partly because of my tone of voice. Partly because I'm a literal thinker (men are easier to communicate with in this way). Partly because I just don't think like most people.

The above sounds like silly reasons to hate someone, and it is. Very silly. But those silly shallow things are what drives some women. It's very looks based and on the surface. They say men are visual creatures. Well, so are women. Just look at them - it's obvious. They dress to stand out for Christ's sake! Men judge women on looks, but they might just find a woman unattractive at worst. They don't especially care about a woman who looks different. Women on the other hand voice it, make a big deal out of it, and make you feel awful by giving you filthy looks and exclude you.

As for the gender war thing, even though I fully support true feminism (equality of women and men), I get tired of hearing the "woe is me" argument from women. Yes it applies in some instances, but it can be overused. I really don't like man-bashing as much as I don't like women-bashing.

As for the babies thing, it makes me quite uncomfortable. I feel very uncomfortable around a group of women discussing children and babies. I can't stand it. I don't like children and it upsets me when my family try to make me bond with them. Being around a group of people discussing babies and children is just plain boring too. It's one of the most boring topics I can think of. "Oh yes they get like that at that age.". And the common people-thing of talking very imprecisely: "Oh look he's eaten that whole pancake" (He ate about a quarter, not exaggerating).


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Amity
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06 Oct 2015, 2:26 pm

For me it's that feeling (and fear) of being henpecked, by more than one woman.
Sometimes it leaves me with the impression that they made themselves feel more womanly by comparison, but, I often believe that the advice is well intended.
I avoid some of the henpecking by wearing stereotypically feminine clothing, when the occasion requires it, just looking the part is often 'enough'.



The_Face_of_Boo
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07 Oct 2015, 2:39 am

Gawd, if those above users were men, saying almost the same words, it would be called out as "Oh, it's an another women-bashing/whining thread", and they would be called misogynists and hanged here :lol:.

It's amazing how the reactions differ completely toward users based on their gender rather on their reasoning.



smudge
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07 Oct 2015, 3:08 am

Note though that I say "some women", not "all women".


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The_Face_of_Boo
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07 Oct 2015, 3:26 am

smudge wrote:
Note though that I say "some women", not "all women".


Even when a male says 'some/many/lot of women', he gets attacks from the same users.

anyway, back to topic.



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07 Oct 2015, 4:40 am

Face of Boo, maybe it's similar to the thing where you're allowed to criticize your own family members, but woe betide the outsider who criticizes them to your face.

And there's nothing wrong with that. You do have slightly more right to say "God my brother can be such a douche" but if someone else says to you "Your brother is a douche" it's a different matter, and for fair reasons.

I realize men are perfectly well allowed to post here on the Women's board, and it's not against the rules for you to be here and comment here. But please don't start to criticize women for criticizing their own kind -- this IS a delicate topic that may seem hypocritical to you, but the reason it's not entirely hypocritical is because women behave in a certain way to each other and this is not about how they behave to men. We need to discuss this the same way some woman may need to discuss uniquely sister-oriented problems.

And this needs to be a safe place to do that without an aggrieved man coming here bashing us for that.

I will not be returning to this thread, because of your introduction of criticizing the very act of having to have this discussion. You don't get it and I know from knowing you on these boards that there's no point in trying to help you "get" it.