"Nerd syndrome" - a mild PDD, misnamed as (S-)NLD

Post Reply New Topic

Yes, "Aspijka" is a cute word and is associated in my mind with intelligent, emotionally warm and friendly, nicely looking female. I named myself as "aspol", which is not positive word which means "sperg" in "free" translation. I do not want to name anyone as "aspol" ("sperg") because it is rude, impolite, derogatory and offensive. But I am cognitively versatile as a person with AS diagnosis.

Naming a low functioning person with AS as "sperg" is offensive, it may be disability-motivated act of aggression. It is not fair. But I am bright and "kooky", so I use the word "aspol" to describe my derailed mentality. Am I a NVLDer, Aspie or "sperg"?

Aspie is a cute word. I like it. The word "Aspie" looks nicer than "aspie". Big "A" is prettier for me than small "a". Small is even a bit "ugly" for me. I "like" sharp shapes, such as triangles (but equilateral are not so pretty, more "spiky" ones are more "masculine" to me), and "dislike" more round, such as circles.

I think that I am a not so bad example of "nudziarz" (Polish word for a boring person). I like writng or taliking about my interests much. It may be annoying to others...

What is AS + NVLD? Maybe I have a sort of such combination? I am not a visual thinker, but have large "obsessiveness". I tend to think in words, not in pictures. I may do not know how it is possible not to think in words so good... Maybe someone with the mixture of AS and NVLD may be an Aspie without visual thinking gifts, but with more flexible thinking and larger amount of "neurotypical" traits?

Why problems with nonverbal communication are sometimes treated as "nonverbal learning disorder" traits, not ASD traits? Why there is a stereotype that an Aspie should be a visual thinker? I am not a visual thinker, but I can imagine something vsual in my head.

I know that other people do not think in the same way as I. But I may have similar problems. The fact that other have other thinking may be strangely interesting for me and maybe it is a result of some autistic traits? I do not have need of sameness (at least I think so), surprises may be excitating for me.

I have problems with practical use of visual thinking. But I like visual stimuli qute much. I may prefer verbal thinking style for a long period of time (maybe infancy?). I have only mild NLD symptoms - some problems with directions (such as right and left, nsde and outside), poor abilities in some themes in Physics. But I was not so poor in Maths. "High-level" visual thnking is not so naturral to me. I may not use it.

"NVLD" is a "learning style". Such as visual thinking. I think that PDDs may have also NVLD learning style, not only visual one! So many Aspies may be misdiagnosed with NLD due to larger flexibility and "verbality" of their mind. I have many weird symptoms - are they NLD traits? I have rather talent to verbal thinking, not (just) a learning disorder. I am poor in vsual tnking n comparison to many people with "classic" cases of Asperger's.

I think that I would be diagnosed as "just NLD" in America, it is irritating to me. I do not lke DSM-V criteria for ASD and a diagnosis of "social communication disorder". I would classfy people with NVLD(-like) profile and social difficulties not as having a learning disability, but as having a sort of complex developmental disorder. Classic autism is another sort of complex developmental disorder.

In the case of "NLD", the name and classification of the disorder is the biggest problem for me.

I see "NVLD" as a pervasive developmental disorder, not as a learning disability. It is too similar to "typical" ASDs. The definitions of PDD such as it below may be a problem because it is also about stereotyped behaviors, interests, activities:

Broad term for disorders, usually first diagnosed in children prior to age 4, characterized by severe and profound impairment in social interaction, communication, and the presence of stereotyped behaviors, interests, and activities. Compare developmental disabilities. (http://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/ ... 0-F89/F84-)

I do not think that all people with PDD should have restricted pattern of activities. I think that large social ineptitude is the main sign of PDD. Many stereotyped behaviors may be associated with inflexible thinking, dislike for change. I think that "weird" symptoms such as peculiar emotionality or thinking, obsessiveness, sensory issues, activity disturbances may be better examples of PDD traits.

I think that the name NVLD has definately to be changed! It is misleading, bad and inadequate.

I found such a book in Google (Nonverbal Learning Disabilities at Home: A Parent's Guide, Pamela B. Tanguay):

http://books.google.pl/books?id=DPdOmRw ... nd&f=false

Here was also something about that that NLD child has "inability to understand another person's perspective". It is... not so small problem with theory of mind - definately autistic trait!

It is next argument against the name "NLD". I think that the name NLD is very wrong and misleading. It HAS to be changed! "NLD" is a cluster of symptoms of more complex, pervasive developmental disorder.

I think that in ICD-11 there should be a PDD which would be a counterpart of "nonverbal learning disorder syndrome". I named it "hyperlogia" ("oververbality") due to tendency to having good development of verbal skills, such as speech, grammar, naming or reading.

And hyperlogia is a pervasive developmental difference (PDD), a form of general neuroatypicality, not a learning disorder!

It can have anomalies in all areas of development: social, emotional (also in thinking and tendencies to "obsessiveness"), sensory, activity, cognitive (learning style and motoric area, even some sorts of speech and language issues). It is a form of Aspiedom to me.

"NLD" may be named sometimes as "female manifestation of AS". I think that it is a sort of AS, which may have different etiology than "classic", "robotic-like" autism.

I read about a woman with a case of something which I named "hyperlogia" (for me she is higher functioning than me, but appeared to have even more theory of mind deficits in childhood than me). She has many interestingly similar symptoms to mine and looks as a "more socialised and not kooky version" of me.

My issues are a lot more "nerdiness or quirkiness" ie beyond social from mumbled speech, motor coordination (useless at video games) , problems with change (obsessing over it), planning and origination, multitasking. I can't say I absolutely can't read others motivation but it is very slow very slow and impaired. Also I am very delayed in emotions both reading others and feeling mine. The "first impressions" fact that most people can judge a person well within a first 30 seconds of meeting them is baffling to me.

My issues are "quirkiness and nerdiness", but also sluggishness, sensitivity (but not in "classically" autistic way). I think that I understand others quite well. I have an obsession that I have just NLD. I do not think that I have inflexible thinking. I have also environmental problems (in family, education due to problems with computers). I have low pysical endurance and strength.

I like to write about the nonsense of the name "nonverbal learning disorder/disability syndrome". I think that it is "hyperlogic autism" (HA) in which verbal abilities are often really well developed (people with it may often have traits of a gifted child), but typically technical abilities are problematic (but problems in nonverbal learning may not be so large scholastic problem). Characteristic socio-emotional issues are core symptoms of it. One person with it may be not interested in being loved, other may need it strongly; one person may not think about imaginary friends, other may have them. Not visual-spatial-motor difficulties. They tend to be not like "robotic" autstics. They may be very obsessive, have unusual fears and peculiar emotionality and thinking. Activity and sensory disturbances are also common. True NLD profile is only a part of this pervasive developmental difference.

Not all nerds get good grades and enjoy schoolworks, but they indeed are smarts and enjoy learning. Though most aspies got special interests,thus enjoying learning about certain things, not all of them are considered smart. Not all nerds are aspies either.

The problem with the nerd syndrome definition is that it further blury the differences between asperger and intellectual gifteness. They are indeed some aspies who are gifted, and there are many on wrong planet, but not all gifted are aspies and not not all aspies are gifted.

"Nerd syndrome" (NS) is a mild PDD which makes a person less suitable to world than average person. NS does not equal giftedness, although traits of gifted child sould be even more common in it than in general population of Aspies. Giftedness alone makes a person more suitable to world than average person. "Nerd syndrome" is for me a "non-robotic-like" form of Aspieness/autism/PDD.

NS is not a learning disability (although learning difficulties may be a symptom of it), it is a general developmental difference, predominantly developmental socio-emotional disability, it may tend to have NLD profile ("hyperverbality" which means appreciably higher verbal skills than visual-spatial skills, often with more or less motor issues). It has not (so) rigid mind and so severe deficits in theory of mind like classic autism. It has marked nonverbal communication impairments and as large negative influence to social interactions, some people with it may be just autistic (but not in "classic", "robotic-like" way) due to appreciable social dysrecprocity, odd content of thinking and (or) "weird" emotionality and serious obsessiveness. In this disorder there are also emotional anomalies present, such as emotional pecularities (like strange fears, marked immaturity), unusual interests (may be "obsessive", impractical (gifted children schould have rather "practical" ones, such as literature, programming; some children with it are gifted (they may tend to have more "normal" interests due to it)), stereotyped, internally narrow, but the number of them should be larger than one - two), may have odd customs/routines/rituals, there may be "activity anomalies" (such as stereotyped and autostimulating behaviors, tics, ADHD, ADD, SCT), some sort of sensory issues (not so severe like in "hard" autism).

"NS" may be a nickname for something misleadingly named as "nonverbaal learning disorder/disability (syndrome)". The onset is in early childhood.

"Nerd syndrome" may be "oververbal autism spectrum disorder" - something which is now misnamed as "the syndrome of nonverbal learning disabilities", "nonverbal learning disorder". This general developmental difference may be caused by dysfunction of right hemisphere of the brain.

"Nerd" is a term commonly associated with high intelligence. I do not think that everyone with "nerd syndrome" will have above-average intelligence, but it may be not uncommon in this group, especially when we consider VIQ. Some people with it may be more obsessive than others, some types of NS (oververbal ASD) may be not appreciably obsessive and they may not meet even ICD-10 or DSM-IV criteria for PDD.

I have some things that in the aggregate could be called [inelegantly] "more than a bit off" syndrome. there needs to be a better name for it.

"Nerd syndrome" is only a nickname. I see it as a pervasive developmental disorder, serious and complex developmental disability. Socio-emotional issues are the most important traits of it. Not all people with it may have stereotyped, restricted, repetitive behaviors. It will have rather verbal abilities better developed than technical. I think that it is now ofted misnamed and misclassified as "nonverbal learning disorder". I think that it is "true" F84.5 from ICD-10 ("robotic" ASDs should be classified as F84.0 or F84.1 for me). It is "overvarbal" while Kanner-like autism tends to be rather "hypervisual". "Female manifestation of AS" may be one of the types of "true" F84.5.

I think that it is different from "typical" ASDs. It is not "robotic", "inflexible". People with it may look more like "Auties" than "Aspies" to me. So it may not share etiology with Kanner's autism at all. But I think that traits of "oververbal" PDD and "hypervisual" may occur at one person.

I am not happy because of the usage of the term "nonverbal learning disability/disorder" to describe something which is a type of Aspieness for me. I want cause to stop using this misleading misname. I think that the name "NVLD syndrome" is very inadequate and even harmful. The name of "nerd syndrome" can't contain words such as "learning" and "communication". It has to be classified as a type of PDD. It looks for me as an another branch of PDDs.

I read about the branch of PDD named as "pathological demand avoidance (syndrome)" (http://adc.bmj.com/content/88/7/595/F1.medium.gifamp).

I think that "severe" ("Kanner-like") Asperger's is just a form of "classic" autism, not an independent type of PDD on its own.

"Nerd syndrome" may be nicknamed as "soft" or "flexible" autism. This branch of PDDs is now misnamed as "nonverbal learning disability/disorder (syndrome)" for me.

I read article about "schizotypal autism" in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizotypal_autism), I even suppose that I may have something like that - maybe it is another separate branch of PDDs?

"Kanner-like" autism is not an only type of developmental autism for me. I think that the definition of PDD has to be broadened to include disorders such as "NVLD syndrome".

^^^^
the schizotypal autism rings a bell with me, in that early on I was dx'ed with schizotypal but later in life dx'ed with AS. I have long thought there is a significant overlap between the two conditions.

I may wonder if I have schizotypal disorder. In ICD-10 it is a mental illness (F21), not a personality disorder. I think that it is proper classification.

I think that something what I nicknamed "nerd syndrome" is a type of pervasive, complex developmental disorder, not a learning problem. It is even a sort of ASD for me. PDDs are complex disabilities starting in early childhood, unlike personality disorders. PDDs have appreciable pecularities in social, emotional, behavioral, activity, sensory, cognitive areas. They make a person "weird", somewhat "stupid" and inept. True NLD is just a visual-spatial-motor disorder, which may be a symptom of PDD. "Overly" developed verbal skills are a type of asynchronous development which may also be a sign of complex developmental differnece.

I think that many "clusters" of symptoms may be misnamed as NLD. Motoric issues may be dyspractic symptoms. Dyssemia is a PDD trait. Pragmatic issues also. Organisational and planning issues may be (at least in some cases) ADHD traits. Magical or bizarre beliefs are also not NLD traits. Fixative interests, routines and stereotyped behaviors are PDD symptoms. Sensory issues are not NLD.

For me many people with NLD appear to have "pervasive idiosyncracy disorder". It may be another name for PDD. It may be also named: "pervasive idiosyncracy syndrome", "general idiosyncracy disorder", "general idiosyncracy syndrome", "general developmental idiosyncracy".

Why people use the name NLD to decribe something which may be diagnosed as a pervasive developmental disorder? Why people with "NLD" are often not diagnosed with a PDD? "Nerd syndrome" is something which appears to be a form of something now named "NLD", not something related to Kanner's autism. It may be caused by "right hemisphere weakness". "Nerd syndrome" is a socio-emotional-behavioral pervasive developmental disability. It is not just "learning" problem. It is a form of general mental idiosyncracy, especially in more severe cases (which may belong also to schizophrenia spectrum). The name has to say about socio-emotional-behavioral otherness, not about learning problems. Learning difficulties are not necessary in "nerd syndrome". In "classic" autism thinking rigidity is a hallmark, in "nerd syndrome" thinking rigidity is lower or even not present, opposite to "hard" types of developmental autism.

"NLD" is "true" F84.5 from ICD-10. It is probably not related to Kanner's disorder. The name NLD has to be changed. People with Asperger's (diagnosis) appear to have different conditions, mainly true F84.5 which is misnamed as "nonverbal learning disability" and some forms of high-functioning rigid autism.

So what's the difference between non-verbal learning disability and Asperger's Syndrome? The NLD line defines non-verbal learning disability (NLD) as follows:

What is NLD? Nonverbal learning disorders (NLD) is a neurological syndrome consisting of specific assets and deficits. The assets include early speech and vocabulary development, remarkable rote memory skills, attention to detail, early reading skills development and excellent spelling skills. In addition, these individuals have the verbal ability to express themselves eloquently. Moreover, persons with NLD have strong auditory retention. Four major categories of deficits and dysfunction also present themselves:

•motoric (lack of coordination, severe balance problems, and difficulties with graphomotor skills).

•visual-spatial-organizational (lack of image, poor visual recall, faulty spatial perceptions, difficulties with executive functioning* and problems with spatial relations).

•social (lack of ability to comprehend nonverbal communication, difficulties adjusting to transitions and novel situations, and deficits in social judgment and social interaction).

•sensory (sensitivity in any of the sensory modes: visual, auditory, tactile, taste or olfactory)

*definition of executive functioning: Neuropsychological functions including, but perhaps not limited to, decision making, planning, initiative, assigning priority, sequencing, motor control, emotional regulation, inhibition, problem solving, planning, impulse control, establishing goals, monitoring results of action, self-correcting. From http://www.behavenet.com/

But these are all signs of AS, as well. A difference may lie in repetitive behaviors (including rigid adherence to routines, etc.) which is mentioned in DSM-IV as a hallmark feature of Asperger's (but I don't see it mentioned with reference to NLD. Also, with AS, we see early childhood signs reminiscent of autism (lack of engagement; rocking or flapping, and other "soft" neurological signs, such as walking on toes, etc.). My colleague, Linda Baker, says that NLD is the school system equivalent of DSM's AS diagnosis (i.e., same thing, different source). I've heard Tony Attwood say that the only difference is the spelling.

http://radio-weblogs.com/0105977/2003/01/18.html

The overlap is so large to not diagnose people with such a "NLD" as PDDers (Aspies). Asperger's is for me a phenotype which may be due to different factors. Bizarre emotionality and social needs, "obsessive" interests, strange routines, hyperactivity and stimmability may be also symptoms of true F84.5. But they may not mean that the disorder is related to Kanner's autism. Sensory issues are not signs of a learning disorder. Organisational deficits are other group of symptoms than visual-spatial deficits for me.

The term "non-verbal learning disability" has to be ruled out due to its misleading character. We need new name for it. I (nick)named it as "hyperlogia" ("oververbality"), "hyperlogic autism".