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auntblabby
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27 May 2015, 10:23 pm

B19 wrote:

Quite true. It's such an ingrained misconception. There were powerful political forces marshalled against her, and she has been treated shabbily as a result. Alas, what goes down as history is written by the winners, not their victims...

ok, I am chastened, this historically clueless yank shall no more attribute that quote to the wronged queen. but I will paraphrase the invalidating thought as it is presently mouthed by legions of aristocratic right-wingers in America, "let them [the peasants] eat tax cuts!" :mrgreen:

Waterfalls
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27 May 2015, 10:24 pm

rarebit wrote:

Aristophanes wrote:

rarebit wrote:

B19 wrote:

...
Alas, what goes down as history is written by the winners, not their victims...

That suggests all winners were wrong, in many cases the oppressed or suchlike win... or are you calling the Nazi's the victims?

Um, I'm pretty sure you're the only one that's mentioned nazi's here. The only thing more uncool than Nazi's is people that bring them up as a knee jerk reaction to something they don't like.

Only obvious example I could think of, anyway it was simply an example to illustrate a point, to which I notice you were too cool to agree or disagree with...

Nazi victims didn't win, they were murdered. They died.

btbnnyr
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27 May 2015, 10:26 pm

Some people may find some statement invalidating, other person may find the same statement helpful, other people may get angry at the same statement, there are many possible ways to think about things in one's own mind and interpret the words and actions of others.

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rarebit
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27 May 2015, 10:26 pm

Waterfalls wrote:

rarebit wrote:

Aristophanes wrote:

rarebit wrote:

B19 wrote:

...
Alas, what goes down as history is written by the winners, not their victims...

That suggests all winners were wrong, in many cases the oppressed or suchlike win... or are you calling the Nazi's the victims?

Um, I'm pretty sure you're the only one that's mentioned nazi's here. The only thing more uncool than Nazi's is people that bring them up as a knee jerk reaction to something they don't like.

Only obvious example I could think of, anyway it was simply an example to illustrate a point, to which I notice you were too cool to agree or disagree with...

Nazi victims didn't win, they were murdered. They died.

Exactly my point!

rarebit
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27 May 2015, 10:29 pm

btbnnyr wrote:

So, should one, in your opinion, get hung up by the way someone says something if their intent is good?

B19
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27 May 2015, 10:32 pm

rarebit wrote:

B19 wrote:

...
Alas, what goes down as history is written by the winners, not their victims...

That suggests all winners were wrong, in many cases the oppressed or suchlike win... or are you calling the Nazi's the victims?

The actual quote is from Winston Churchill!

rarebit
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27 May 2015, 10:35 pm

B19 wrote:

rarebit wrote:

B19 wrote:

...
Alas, what goes down as history is written by the winners, not their victims...

That suggests all winners were wrong, in many cases the oppressed or suchlike win... or are you calling the Nazi's the victims?

The actual quote is from Winston Churchill!

mmm, but he never said "victims", which invalidates it as a philosophical / logical statement of truth

Waterfalls
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27 May 2015, 10:39 pm

rarebit wrote:

Waterfalls wrote:

rarebit wrote:

Aristophanes wrote:

rarebit wrote:

B19 wrote:

...
Alas, what goes down as history is written by the winners, not their victims...

That suggests all winners were wrong, in many cases the oppressed or suchlike win... or are you calling the Nazi's the victims?

Um, I'm pretty sure you're the only one that's mentioned nazi's here. The only thing more uncool than Nazi's is people that bring them up as a knee jerk reaction to something they don't like.

Only obvious example I could think of, anyway it was simply an example to illustrate a point, to which I notice you were too cool to agree or disagree with...

Nazi victims didn't win, they were murdered. They died.

Exactly my point!

I meant that the losers were the people murdered by the nazis, and that the history of WWII was written by the winners (U.S., Britain, France etc.) about the nazis who I don't think were actually the losers, though they lost the war. The losers were the Nazis victims.

Why did you bring this up, what offended you to where that seemed reasonable?

B19
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27 May 2015, 10:40 pm

rarebit wrote:

B19 wrote:

rarebit wrote:

B19 wrote:

...
Alas, what goes down as history is written by the winners, not their victims...

That suggests all winners were wrong, in many cases the oppressed or suchlike win... or are you calling the Nazi's the victims?

The actual quote is from Winston Churchill!

mmm, but he never said "victims", which invalidates it as a philosophical / logical statement of truth

"For my part, I consider that it will be found much better by all Parties to leave the past to history, especially as I propose to write that history".
Speech in the House of Commons (January 23, 1948); Cited in The Yale Book of Quotations (2006), ed. Fred R. Shapiro, Yale University Press, p. 154 ISBN 0300107986

btbnnyr
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27 May 2015, 10:40 pm

rarebit wrote:

btbnnyr wrote:

So, should one, in your opinion, get hung up by the way someone says something if their intent is good?

I wouldn't get too hung up on what someone says or what way, regardless of their intent, good or bad.
What they say is their opinion from their perspective with what information they have, and I can hear it and agree or disagree with them.
If their views make sense to me, I will likely incorporate into my views and actions, even if their views were different from my initial views.
If their views make no sense, I will reject those.
If ambiguous, I will leave them as little floating nuggets and neither reject or accept, but awaiting further evidence.

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Aristophanes
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27 May 2015, 10:42 pm

rarebit wrote:

Aristophanes wrote:

rarebit wrote:

B19 wrote:

...
Alas, what goes down as history is written by the winners, not their victims...

That suggests all winners were wrong, in many cases the oppressed or suchlike win... or are you calling the Nazi's the victims?

Um, I'm pretty sure you're the only one that's mentioned nazi's here. The only thing more uncool than Nazi's is people that bring them up as a knee jerk reaction to something they don't like.

Only obvious example I could think of, anyway it was simply an example to illustrate a point, to which I notice you were too cool to agree or disagree with...

I just don't believe in arguing with people that rely exclusively on extreme hyperbole to make a point, that's all. The initial statement wasn't one of morals (nazi=bad, you support nazis?) but of valid reasoning (you win a war you kill or silence the opposition therefore the opposition gets no say in history, pretty simple).

auntblabby
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27 May 2015, 10:45 pm

I will endeavor to only let the words of the angel Gabriel alit on my doorstep, when such would say that I royally suck, reach my heart. of such coming out of everybody else's gob I will recognize it as mere 2-legged furless dog bark, and try my best to tune it out. there has to be a way to contract this into a snappy little mantra. :chin:

rarebit
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27 May 2015, 10:48 pm

Waterfalls wrote:

rarebit wrote:

Waterfalls wrote:

rarebit wrote:

Aristophanes wrote:

rarebit wrote:

B19 wrote:

...
Alas, what goes down as history is written by the winners, not their victims...

That suggests all winners were wrong, in many cases the oppressed or suchlike win... or are you calling the Nazi's the victims?

Um, I'm pretty sure you're the only one that's mentioned nazi's here. The only thing more uncool than Nazi's is people that bring them up as a knee jerk reaction to something they don't like.

Only obvious example I could think of, anyway it was simply an example to illustrate a point, to which I notice you were too cool to agree or disagree with...

Nazi victims didn't win, they were murdered. They died.

Exactly my point!

I was stating that the losers are NOT ALWAYS the victims, case in point being the NAZI's.

I wouldn't have said I was offended, I'd prefer to keep objective, but in reality on a personal level I do see it as offensive to class the NAZI's as victims, I see it as you stated, that the NAZI's made victims, cruelly, viciously and absolutely unnecessarily...

Maybe I should have chosen Napoléon Bonaparte for the atrocities he committed as he attempted to conquer Europe?

rarebit
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27 May 2015, 10:50 pm

Aristophanes wrote:

rarebit wrote:

Aristophanes wrote:

rarebit wrote:

B19 wrote:

...
Alas, what goes down as history is written by the winners, not their victims...

That suggests all winners were wrong, in many cases the oppressed or suchlike win... or are you calling the Nazi's the victims?

Um, I'm pretty sure you're the only one that's mentioned nazi's here. The only thing more uncool than Nazi's is people that bring them up as a knee jerk reaction to something they don't like.

Only obvious example I could think of, anyway it was simply an example to illustrate a point, to which I notice you were too cool to agree or disagree with...

My point was their classing of all losers as the victim!

rarebit
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27 May 2015, 11:00 pm

btbnnyr wrote:

rarebit wrote:

btbnnyr wrote:

So, should one, in your opinion, get hung up by the way someone says something if their intent is good?

Yes, it is the information and not the delivery that should be important.

I like your message filters BTW, reminds me of firewalls / iptables. I use a similar set, even with my own internal thought processes.

starfox
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28 May 2015, 3:21 am

To be honest I'd feel invalidated if someone didn't try and give me solutions to a problem; even though you guys don't like that.

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