Can person with Asperger's learn acceptable behaviors?

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Yeah...

It doesn't sound like AS.

-He's very successful (not saying that people with AS can't be...but typically in idea oriented, technical fields. Networking based fields...not so much)

-He only shows interest in people when he can benefit (people with AS show interest in people they find interesting or friendly, not necessarily those they can use)

-He is good at charm and manipulation (people with AS typically aren't)

The reason why this may be is because many people (even psychologists) misunderstand the meaning of the word "empathy". Therefore, they are ready to diagnose any self-centered, manipulative person with AS when in reality, their behaviours are more in line with Narcissistic PD or Sociopathy.

To the Opening Poster, Wofie:

I will give you an example.
I care deeply about my son - I love him, and also my ex partner.
Because of my sensory issues I find being looked at intimately, and also being hugged and cuddled , extremely overwhelming. (I can hug others firmly.) I also hate any soft, gentle touching.
I startle if someone touches me suddenly.

This gives the impression I am cold and heartless. It gives the impression I do not care. Internally, it saddens me i could not be otherwise with my ex partner.

This is just one example of the complexities of ASD's. Our outward appearance and expressed behaviours and reactions are often not "the norm." And in my case, the internal and the external do not match that well at times.'I may feel great compassion and care for my ex partner. But he cannot read that in me because I do not show it as most people do.

Don;t ever assume we do not care. Many of us do. And some may not. But the way we show it may often be via more practical means.

Please, folks, remember that we're only seeing one person's interpretation of another person's actions and motivations. The man isn't here on the board to defend himself and it's rather unfair to jump on him based upon someone else's possibly very biased impressions. One of my sisters says horrible things about my other sister and our mother quite often -- things that I know are not objectively true but are simply her own biased interpretation of events, but she'll never listen to any other point of view. Sometimes all that's needed is a change in perspective. That was the point I was trying to get across to the OP in my first post.

Regards,

Patricia

I certainly understand this, Millie. When my daughter was very little, she used to be horribly hurt that I didn't want her to cling to me physically. She's always needed a great deal of physical affection and I just couldn't give it to her, it was too much. I didn't know why -- this was long before I'd even heard of AS, probably before it was even an acknowledged condition. I had to sit her down and explain that just because I didn't want her hanging on me like a monkey, that didn't mean that I didn't love her. It's a hard thing to explain to a five-year-old, who only sees the world from their own limited perspective. I believe, though, that if a person is open to allowing different expressions of love from the ones they personally prefer, they will be able to understand what we try to express.

Regards,

Patricia

Learning to function in the NT world by the numbers is the story of my life. Yes, one can learn to conform his external behavior to NT acceptable norms. When in Rome etc. etc . This should be doable by Aspies. I am not so sure about HFA.

ruveyn

You are idiot.

Aspergians are not hive collective.

All Aspergians are not technical little angels with big glasses and too big sweaters. Some have traits remniscent of sociopathy. Me myself for example.

Yeah, but that means that when you see sociopathy, you can't exactly blame it on AS. After all, if you get psychosis in someone with ADHD, you don't blame it on the ADHD, do you? You look for another diagnosis. I don't think it's narcissism or sociopathy in this case, though. There's not nearly enough evidence for that and we're not professionals. (Even if we were, how could you read that much into one short paragraph?)

I think what the OP is talking about is a pretty plain-vanilla workaholic. Plenty of people not diagnosed with Asperger's do this all the time. I could see someone with AS over-focusing on work, becoming a workaholic like anyone else could; it's just that when you combine the "networking-related" career and the high success level, this really doesn't sound like someone with Asperger's. If someone is more successful than most in the area of social skills, you just can't diagnose him with a PDD. Not unless his success is due to some other area of high skill standing in for the social skills, anyway. (Example: Albert Einstein was pretty darn popular, to the point that he had to go into hiding from the media, and while nobody can diagnose him, he definitely had bad social skills...)

If this person had AS, the workaholism issue would probably have to be resolved pretty similarly to a non-AS person: Figure out why you need to work so much; figure out whether you're avoiding something; work with the family to reach a compromise. Neither AS nor NT would have to change his personality to make a compromise like that.

Last edited by Callista on 23 Jun 2009, 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

Yes you can. Aspergians could be very good at mimicing social skills.

Only difference is that we are not inuitively using social skill.

It is not so that Aspergians cannot learn to use social skills.

Let me explain.

If we had human race born with karate skills, who learn it by instinct, it does not negate that humans not born with that characteristic can learn karate.

Yeah, and humans can learn to swim, too; but we'll never do it as well as otters can. There's always going to be a huge gap between artificially learned skill and a skill your brain is wired to do naturally.

For career, that does not matter.

It seems less likely but I don't think it's impossible. People with AS are often highly focused and motivated in their own area of interest. I think it's possible for person with AS and an extroverted personality to learn how to interact well with people when the topics of conversation are limited to "business" matters. Such a person might still be socially inept outside of the work environment.

exactly. and networking does not have to equate with socialising.
If it is in a specialised field, then this often allows for mutual relating AND peoples' quirks and idiosyncrasies can be, and are overlooked if their skills or their product are beneficial to the other party.

I am a walking example of this. I have not followed ONE normal career trajectory in my field. I also approach "newtorking" vie net and phone and have a HUGE mental database of connections. it has NOTHING to do with the social whatsoever in my case. My link with these people has nothing to do with dinners, parties, openings. I use them. they are part of my strategy and structure and I am very analytical about it and also quite self-seeking.But i always do so with integrity and honesty. Many an ASD person who has a career as a special interest, operates in this way and has no problem with it whatsoever. In this respect, I view these networking connections in terms of how they can best serve my career/special interest, and because my special interest/career is the greatest love of my life, I do anything for it. It is possible for many of us to find ways to operate in the world and make a go of things and we do not have to be an Einstein. i am not.

In saying this, however, it is not he classic and normal "networking." i have identified my deficits and found ways and means of doing the networking stuff in unusual ways. For instance - everyone knows I am virtually reclusive - but i still get called up for press stuff or to run a workshop or to do a radio interview or talk at a seminar. I have made my deficits work for me. I have also been very, very lucky.

If i was able to network normally and schmooze, i may however be far more advanced in my career than i am, which is a hypothetical I suspect is largely true.

watch temple grandin at a meat industry function or a conference. the social isn't great, but the networking happens......

First: AS does not equal "uncaring". It's rather disturbing and insulting that so many people assume this. (In the OPs case, if I understood this correctly) it's probably not meant as an insult, but plain old ignorance, which can be forgiven because there really is a lot of misinformation around.
People with AS often come across as uncaring because they express their feelings differently from neurotypical people, or even not at all. There is often an issue with body language and facial expressions. Someone with AS who seems totally disinterested in a person might actually be deeply in love, only a neurotypical onlooker who would be looking for body language signs won't notice a thing.
I've made the experience that because of my problem with facial expressions (I can't read the expressions of other people and apparently I'm not very good at making the appropriate face in social situations either, I forget to smile a lot or make a sympathetic face when someone is talking about something that upsets them - if I'm even lucky enough to notice they're upset, though I've been getting better at that.) I've been accused of being bored or cold and uncaring even in situations where I was deeply emotionally involved. It doesn't have anything to do with selfishness.
There are many people I care about (and in some situations I suspect I'm actually more caring than the average person), I just can't broadcast it the way a neurotypical person constantly does without trying. For example, I have to consciously remember to smile at people I'm talking to so they won't assume I dislike them.
There's a difference between cognitive empathy (the ability to tell how other people are feeling) and emotional empathy (the ability to feel for people and to care). Most people on the Aspie end of the autistic spectrum might be significally impaired in the first area but not in the other. They might not be able to tell how a person is feeling (this includes not noticing when others are sad or upset) but if someone tells them they might be deeply upset about that information.

The case of your uncle, however, sounds very different - that he has the ability to charm people he might benefit from is extremely unlikely (some might even argue totally impossible) for someone with AS. Most aspies won't even instictively recognise the connection between being nice to someone and benefitting from it. (I had a hard time understanding why people at school who were far less intellectually capable got better grades simply by smiling at the teachers... Sure, I understood the concept sooner or later, but never well enough to apply that knowledge practically and improve my own grades by being nicer, even though I tried. I did NOT learn to smile in the appropriate moments and I doubt I ever will. I'm simply lacking that ability.)
It might be a misdiagnosis, as many psychiatrists can't tell the difference between a sociopathic and an autistic personality. The difference is hard to tell, especially in adults, and an adult diagnosis is shaky at best. There is no way to find out whether he doesn't care about his family or whether he cares and does a horrible job conveying it. If it's the former, and he really doesn't care, it's not due to Asperger's syndrome.
As to whether he will be able to change: most likely not. If he doesn't care about his family, why should he start now? And if he indeed does care, he won't suddenly be able to stop being autistic anyway.

Just a thought..

I wonder if the reason why he doesn't show he cares is because the thought does not occur. Maybe he just expects that his mother and son should already know that he loves and cares about them so maybe he thinks he does not need to demonstrate this over and over?

Your brother does not sound autistic and heres why,

firstly, he's successful but what at please specify because most autistics are mainly successful for what they enjoy for example a knitting shop or a network manager, computer specialist.

secondly, he only is friends with people who benefit his gains. Most aspies are friends with anyone especially those with the same interests however this can turn to disaster when we become wrapped up in our interests. Also most aspies have a high sense of moral most of us find this disgusting I do personally it is wrong and no one deserves it. I have been in the situation before and it is not nice at all.

thirdly charming people, most aspies are very blunt, being able to charm people means being able to play and determine them I and most certainly cannot do it because we are socially backward and inverted

this is clearly a misdiagnosis for sure these are dominant traits and an asie having the 2 and 3 is against our code, it does not work and is a contradiction

your brother just sounds like a narcisistic a hole to me who only cares for his own self worth you see he cares nothing for the child because it grants him nothing in benefit well financially and mentally.

wow NT are really dumb sometimes this was written right infont of you and you did not realise it its pretty black and write, and I love black and write, plus I have a rather large interest in psychology and my knowledge of the subject is quite superior especially in cognitive so take t from someone who knows the subject

He's not autistic because the original poster did not state what his brothers career path was? I'm failing to see the logic, could you explain that to me?


Actually, many people on the spectrum have empathy and theory of mind issues. Many of us are self-centered, many aspies are misdiagnosed with NPD and aspies in general are compared with narcissists.


You used the word most not all, perhaps his brother is in the group that does not have a high sense of morals? Plus, i have not seen anything in the original post that suggests his brother has a bad set of morals. His brother might not have the capacity to care, that doesn't make him bad, and you certainly shouldn't be judging him.


His brother is nearly 60, he's had a long time to learn to charm people. Plus, if one controls the conversation, they do not need to rely on the instictive facial expressions and rules that aspies lack. They can merely use what is tried and tested.


Which diagnostic criteria are you using?


I was happy to suggest his brother was a narcissist and even then i meant "narcissistic traits", i certainly wasn't intending to suggest NPD. Honestly though, suggesting he is an A-hole? How do you expect someone with ToM issues and maldeveloped empathy to act towards his child?


The original poster came here to ask for our suggestions, not for people to imply that he is dumb. Also, it's not black and white that his brother does not have aspergers, there is also nothing that negates someone having brother aspergers and NPD. I do not doubt that you have an interest in psychology, but it appears that your interests are either not broad enough or you are not applying your knowledge in said area effectively.