A very selfish and manipulative nature - AS trait?

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01 Feb 2011, 11:58 am

The whole concept of manipulation is something that has taken my lifetime to understand. I still don't understand it but when I've sensed it I'm terrified. I am ridiculously open and people have a heyday with me. I have to bounce many things off my NT friends because I've haven't a clue what someone is trying to tell me. I hardly ever get it right. I always interpret it inside in extremes. If I think a comment was made to hurt me then I loose all trust...like the person wishes I was dead...despises me. My family and friends have learned to be direct, honest, or clear if they want me to understand. Anything said with an attached tone gets me going. I can't imagine being out in the world thinking up ways to get something. I had people in intimate relationships accuse me of it but they were wrong. When things feel different I address it. I'd never find myself in a loveless relationship for years and years. If they want to be free, be free, why would I want them anymore??????????? I have no idea why I would want to manipulate someone to doing something that they didn't want or plan to do on their own. How would I have faith in what happened??? Why would I want something to happen that didn't happen because it occurred naturally. I don't get it at all, I have no idea what is the motivation for such a thing. How could there be any pleasure in it?? It is baffling to me.

I get extra upset too when someone makes 'leading' comments...trying to tap into my ego so I will jump on it and go blindly forward. People freak me out with how they get their feelings known. I wish there weren't such thing as 'tongue in cheek' comments. They freak me out. I wanna stand up and say...wack, I felt that one. I'm so nervous just talking about it. lol

I like dogs best, although I have one that works on me all the time. But cats they get over on me big time...horses too, goats too...lol shifty...cats especially lol ((really hyperventilating)) 8O


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TheygoMew
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01 Feb 2011, 12:22 pm

Rainbow-Squirrel wrote:
This is something I still haven't understood clearly: aren't Aspies sociopaths by nature ? Why are they often refered to as two distinct groups ? Of course there are NT sociopaths but how comes Aspies are not sociopaths ?

Edit: to answer the question yes, I consider myself quite selfish, wouldn't know about manipulative, I try to do as much as I can by myself.


I sometimes wonder if sociopaths are trying to blend in with aspies so that if they kill someone they can claim it was an obsessive interest. :roll:



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01 Feb 2011, 12:34 pm

I've been called "selfish" and "manipulative" before (mainly by stressed out family members who are mad at me) - it tends to be more of a miscommunication thing than anything else. I will admit, I have my selfish and manipulative times, but I wouldn't use those adjectives to describe my personality. I think when a lot of Aspies are accused of being selfish and/or manipulative, it is not because they actually are, but because they are having a meltdown, or sensory overload, or being made to deviate from their routines, or are overwhelmed in some way, and the person accusing them doesn't understand that.



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01 Feb 2011, 12:34 pm

TheygoMew wrote:
Rainbow-Squirrel wrote:
This is something I still haven't understood clearly: aren't Aspies sociopaths by nature ? Why are they often refered to as two distinct groups ? Of course there are NT sociopaths but how comes Aspies are not sociopaths ?

Edit: to answer the question yes, I consider myself quite selfish, wouldn't know about manipulative, I try to do as much as I can by myself.


I sometimes wonder if sociopaths are trying to blend in with aspies so that if they kill someone they can claim it was an obsessive interest. :roll:

It is confusing. Psychopathy is classified as a personality disorder, yet certain diagnoses cannot be made if a personality disorder exists.
It seems like, if you are one, you cannot be the other. Why can't you be both?



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01 Feb 2011, 12:50 pm

You can't because there are ruling out factors for both.

You cannot be an autistic psychopath or narcissist.

Narcissists can put on the fake smiles, manipulate others with great ease, get what they want out of others and act very cruel to those they don't like or see through their disguise.

I am usually the first to pick up on the narcissist's disguise and guess who is targeted afterwards? Me.

I have met several narcissists. Enough to know there is no way in hell you can be an autistic narcissist.

I have met a couple of psychopaths. They'd love to torment me. These were people that ended up murdering. I didn't like them either and I felt they were bad people from the start. Nobody else did though.

Con artists, manipulators are not autistic.

This does not mean someone with autism cannot kill. It can happen if a meltdown spins out of control however there are way more people killing their autistic children than their children doing that to them.

Sometimes thanks to the media's depiction of these "burdens" which I think it is a narcissist's biggest nightmare to have to actually take care of and have to spend more time on a child so it's only natural that these kinds of people are calling us burdens and putting us all in one mold. Thanks to these depictions, we are equated to down syndrome. All ret*d. So it's okay if a parent kills their autistic child or sends the child to the school of shock. We're dehumanized. The media also loves to find the worst case scenarios where the child has multiple issues and will declare all of those issues as just exclusively autistic.



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01 Feb 2011, 1:01 pm

What I am wondering is, can someone be a psychopath who murders and be autistic, too? We can't pretend that having autism rules out the possibility of being a psychopath and killing another person. My theory is, there are NT psychopaths, psychopaths with mental illnesses, and psychopaths with autism. The psychopath is the person who commits crimes, including murder. Criminal activity is where the psychopathic part of the personality manifests itself and can occur in anyone, regardless of other conditions.
How is this particular issue addressed in text?



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01 Feb 2011, 1:42 pm

Killing is not exclusive to being a psychopath.



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01 Feb 2011, 2:30 pm

I believe it is possible for someone to have both Asperger's and ASPD/sociopathy, and I'm an example of one. When I was little I don't think I was very manipulative (although I could've been, I can barely remember my childhood at all), but I have always been good at lying and making up stories. I remember thinking to myself a few years ago, before I even knew Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy existed, that I enjoyed lying to people and manipulating them, and that I have learned very well how to through observation. I have all the manipulative, aggressive, arrogant, etc. traits of a sociopath, but all the asocial and obsessive traits of an Aspie, and lack of empathy which both have in common. I think they can coexist, and sometimes they conflict with one another.



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01 Feb 2011, 2:40 pm

TheygoMew wrote:
Killing is not exclusive to being a psychopath.

Killing is just one example of a crime they could be capable of. The sociopathic personality (the antiquated term is psychopath) kills as a means to an end. They can commit other crimes for the same reason. They put their own needs above all others and will do whatever it takes to meet them.

Instead of thinking the sociopathic personality simply charms people and gets away with crimes because of this, I think of it as someone who is willing to do anything to get their way, even if it involves criminal acts. They need money, the will rob a retailer or a bank. They need food, they go to the store and shop lift some dinner or skip out on a check at a restaurant. Maybe, every single one of them isn't charming and able to manipulate people, because, they don't need to be. Sooner or later, they usually end up in jail with a rap sheet. The one thing they all share is ruthlessness in their personality.



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01 Feb 2011, 4:30 pm

dunbots wrote:
I believe it is possible for someone to have both Asperger's and ASPD/sociopathy, and I'm an example of one. When I was little I don't think I was very manipulative (although I could've been, I can barely remember my childhood at all), but I have always been good at lying and making up stories. I remember thinking to myself a few years ago, before I even knew Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy existed, that I enjoyed lying to people and manipulating them, and that I have learned very well how to through observation. I have all the manipulative, aggressive, arrogant, etc. traits of a sociopath, but all the asocial and obsessive traits of an Aspie, and lack of empathy which both have in common. I think they can coexist, and sometimes they conflict with one another.


The lack of empathy isn't the same with autistics and sociopaths.



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03 Feb 2011, 11:19 am

jonnynoob wrote:
i want to share a story: my cat was so horny that he became pretty depressed after a while he couldnt have a good cat-sex. Then he started to protest me in his own way-which i think thats the explanation- by peeing onto my bed and my brothers bed. That was probably quite annoying for him, so my brother decided to keep his door closed to prevent this from happening. I thought this was just a temporary phase so it was ok for him(the cat) to pee onto my bed once in a while. So i did not take any action further than cleaning the pee marks with vinegar and changing my sheet . So thats the picture so far. The important detail was he(the cat) usually prefered my brothers bed to mine. This means even if both of our doors open he would pee onto my brothers bed with a higher probability- id say 2 out of 3-. One night my brother had his friends over us. I was hanging out with them meanwhile. One of his friends must have left his door open because my brothers girlfriend came in and told my brother that the cat peed on his bed. Me and my brother simultaneously reacted to this. His reaction was like ``**** again? how? ****!`` and my uncontrolled, alcohol boosted reaction was like ``oh yeah!``. 10 seconds after this i realized everyone was silently staring at me. I felt deeply embarrassed. And tried to explain my respond. Actually i was pretty happy that the cat did pee on my brothers bed not mine because i just had my sheet changed that night. bla bla happened afterwards....

So if this is a selfish behaviour pattern, yes i have plenty of these. Manipulative? Hmm...

Edit: After examining the story-telling carefully... Id say yes i am also manipulative.


Interesting choice of story to pick as an example. :lol:

I'd be careful with your conclusions though. Aspies often spend a lot of their life being TOLD they are selfish and manipulative. It isn't necessarily true. The outward behavior may seem the same, but true selfishness and manipulation are both deliberate. Aspies often act in ways that seem selfish and manipulative, but it is very often NOT deliberate. Aspies often act in these ways without even realizing they are doing it.

If you are told enough throughout your life that you are "Lazy, stupid, selfish and manipulative," it's very easy to start believing it.

Only YOU know if it's truly deliberate. :wink:


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jonnynoob
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03 Feb 2011, 1:51 pm

MrXxx wrote:
The outward behaviour may seem the same, but true selfishness and manipulation are both deliberate. Aspies often act in ways that seem selfish and manipulative, but it is very often NOT deliberate. Aspies often act in these ways without even realizing they are doing it.

Very good point. first, i have to admit that i did not know the meaning of the word `deliberate` so i checked it online. i think it is used similar to word `intentional`. I have a theory on what is `the specific kind of behaviour` and what is not. Let me try to explain this: When i acted/reacted one way with a motive this motive might be coming from two sources which one of them is conscious and the other one is subconscious*. My behaviour has a projection on other people who are directly and indirectly affected by my behaviour. Clearly, this is the point where i am most troubled at, i dont know how they would interpret this behaviour of mine. So i try to define my behaviour depending on both direct and indirect reactions coming from both directly and indirectly affected people. Well this is another point i am pretty troubled at. But, i claim regardless of my troubles, my conscious and subconscious motives shaping this specific behaviour of mine, my behaviour can objectively be identified as a `the specific kind of behaviour`. Long story short, i believe if my behaviour is in the predefined category of selfish and/or manipulative then it is selfish and/or manipulative. It is also possible that i am missing something here but if i am not i just have to accept that in terms of society i live in.

MrXxx wrote:
If you are told enough throughout your life that you are "Lazy, stupid, selfish and manipulative," it's very easy to start believing it.

Another good point. I ve been told enough and this is i guess what lead me to self-pity and low self-esteem issues and eventually to depression.

MrXxx wrote:
Only YOU know if it's truly deliberate. :wink:

Personally, i am pretty convinced i have no secret agenda of making people suffer in any way. :roll:

*i am not sure if AS enables the development of subconscious dynamics whatsoever.



mikey1138
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03 Feb 2011, 2:27 pm

decoder wrote:
ColdBlooded wrote:
When i think of manipulative, i think of someone who understands people GREATLY, and uses that understanding to mess with peoples' minds to get what they want. That would be like the exact opposite of an aspie. I think it's like the "Empathy vs. Sympathy" thing.. Aspies lack empathy, but usually not sympathy. Sociopaths lack sympathy, but usually not empathy. Their empathy is what makes so many of them successful manipulators.



That's me alright. I have a great understanding of other people's minds, intentions etc. Putting myself in another's shoes is what I do to a great extent. It renders me a master manipulator as well as it opens an insight to psychology, social psychology etc. I think the latter one is the good part. However as I wrote previously, my sociopathic acts are restricted with my inability to socialize as an aspie. I can control people but I cant make them love me, I dont intend it at all. No gestures, no lies. I am very good at giving advice even in very delicate situations but I cant condolence people. No physical interactions or "courtings" as you say. I prefer to "command" people which I believe is the "aspie" way of directing people.

I think that also the very logical and constantly analyzing nature of asperger keeps me from becoming a downright sociopath. It is like the brain is aware of its sociopathic tendencies and usually supresses them. The fact I've always seen myself as a "good and reasonable person" justifies that I have somewhat control and consciousness of the sociopathic urges.

It would be great if an aspie with sociopathy comes and shares his/her ideas. I am very confused since the last night :roll: :)


Does anyone else think this relates to Digby Tantam's proposed "TFAS" and theory of Maliciousness in Aspies?

The following is an excerpt with a link to the full paper below that:

A young man with Asperger syndrome rang his favourite Aunt to say that her husband had been killed in a road traffic accident on
his way home from work. The report was a complete fabrication as became apparent an hour later when his Uncle arrived home.

The Aunt was disgusted at her nephew's action because she did not feel it was explicable. It challenged her sense of what could
be expected in the world. Moreover, she had always thought that she was close to the young man and had, indeed, recently helped
him out. The action was therefore inexplicable in a narrower sense, in being undeserved. It challenged another belief that she
had always taken for granted that people got their just desserts. It seemed to other family members that the young man's only
motive was to cause mischief and mental suffering, and they wanted to distance themselves from him to protect themselves.

Acts of malice like this include creating unnecessary uproar which stops a social activity from taking place, calling a person names
or revealing embarrassing information about them, being spiteful to them in other ways for example damaging their property, or
hurting others.

http://www.autismuk.com/index%20tatum.htm



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03 Feb 2011, 2:35 pm

I was like that when I was little. If my mum wouldn't allow me to have a treat, I used to trick my dad into letting me have one. I haven't done that to anybody since I was 8.


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03 Feb 2011, 3:29 pm

I think it's human to be selfish and manipulative. It's not an iron rule that Aspies can't be selfish or manipulative because we are in fact humans with different experiences that shape us. My fear of exposing too much information or being too honest actually causes me to resemble a sociopath trying to cover up my tracks. I mean, we live in a world that is at time cruel, so it's the nature of any living creature to become callous and toughen up. I mean, why can't we be manipulative or selfish? We have the IQ and given enough logic to rationalize, I think we could be worse than most NTs. I'm not saying that we should, but I can understand an Aspie who's been kicked too many times that adapts to the "cold" game that he/she interacts with. I mean, that's how I learned how to be sarcastic. I got so tired of being mocked and made fun of that I studied and perfected how to destroy someone with analogies. I think of it as the same "you make me feel bad, I hurt you back" mentality an aspie has in elementary school. If people around you make you feel bad and you view them as being selfish. You mimic that nature to be socially successful. I wouldn't let it get you down, though. We as humans can either act viciously or caring. Being a NT, Aspie, or even a sociopath cannot stop you from one day loving. Things are not set in stone, my friend. I know for a fact, despite how vicious I can be when backed into a corner, I am one of the most loving people deep down.



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03 Feb 2011, 9:54 pm

I don't think that I ever could be manipulative. I'm not claiming any particular virtue on my part. It is just that in order to manipulate someone, you have to be able to predict how they will respond to your actions, and I'm very bad at predicting how people will respond to my actions.

I have read about some techniques that people use to manipulate others, and I sometimes recognize when someone tries to use them on me, but I am unable to use the techniques myself. I'm just too self conscious; I couldn't pull it off.


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