A very selfish and manipulative nature - AS trait?

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Postperson
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17 Jul 2009, 9:32 pm

mm they 'court' you, sociopaths.



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17 Jul 2009, 9:45 pm

No, selfishness and manipulation/controlling behaviour are not inherent to AS or autism in general, ASers and autistics can be, but it's not a preresiquite.

By the way.

Manipulation = Control

The word by itself is neutral, in psychology it's generally used to denote negatively impacting controlling behaviour.

Rainbow-Squirrel wrote:
What's the definition/criteria of sociopath ?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopath

I think Hare should omit some of the stuff he presribed to Psychopathy though, some of it seems redundant especially the way psychologists (including himself) use the word. It allows some people to distort the term from a psychological construct into a term that just means "criminal" or "pervert", which is not the meaning of the word. Most criminals I believe are not psychopaths and being a perv doesn't signify psychopathy either and most psychologists/psychiatrists will tell you the same.

When most psychologists use the word or refer to "psychopathic traits" they are usually refering to pathological narcissism. The word itself has been mucked up on all sides though by psychologists being vague and not omiting traits that have nothing to do with it, to normal people just twisting it around to make it a criminal or social term.

Hare basically classifies Psychopaths into two groups.

Pyschopaths: He describes these individuals as "biologically" fearless narcissists.
Sociopaths: He describes these individuals as more normal narcissists.

Wikipedia wrote:
He believes psychopaths are born with temperamental differences such as impulsivity, cortical underarousal, and fearlessness that lead them to risk-seeking behavior and an inability to internalize social norms. On the other hand, he claims sociopaths have relatively normal temperaments; their personality disorder being more an effect of negative sociological factors like parental neglect, delinquent peers, poverty, and extremely low or extremely high intelligence. Both personality disorders are, of course, the result of an interaction between genetic predispositions and environmental factors, but psychopathy leans towards the hereditary whereas sociopathy tends towards the environmental


Yeah, mucked up it is, maybe it should just be refered to as a whole as "Chronic D-bag Personality Disorder". I have no clue, the only part psychologists agree on as a whole regarding the issue is the pathological narcissism that seems to define the personality.


makuranososhi wrote:
And a degree of selfishness is inherent and healthy for each person to have


My psychologist and psychiatrist pretty much said the same thing, everyone has a little bit of Narcissus in them, it's really how much you feed that particular beast though, Pyschopaths overfeed that beast.

Callista wrote:
in the sense of "desiring to force another person to do something to one's benefit against their will"


Which pretty much means controlling another person.

Spokane Girl wrote:
So according to the dictionary, parents are manipulative. They control their kids and tell them what to do and give them punishments for not listening and they also threaten them with punishments to get them to listen. To avoid that, you have to be a lazy parent and you let your kids run wild and they are undisciplined so not all manipulating is bad, it just depends on what it is. I think everyone is manipulative to an extent just like everyone is selfish at times and self centered.


Pretty much, manipulation and influence are actually neutral words, usually words that people don't know the definition of or just ignore the definition so they can be "clever" and use it as a meaningless ad hominen buzzword to "cleverly" shut down their opposition, which is a decietful underhanded form of manipulation in itself. I don't think buzzword usage is very clever though. Inorder to never influence a person you'd have to shut yourself in your house or go live in the woods alone, you end up influencing people without even trying by merely existing, the vilification of these words is stupid and those who do so are influencing and manipulating themselves and not in a very good manner mind you, they are being the biggest jokers of all, hypocrites.

FiddlerPianist wrote:
And does APD the same thing as a sociopath?


I think you mean ASPD (Anti-Social Personality Disorder), which is considered a psychopathy spectrum disorder, but it's not a definer for psychopathy, since ASPD is designed for criminal types and psychopath doesn't generally refer to just criminals, and you have to be a chronic narcissistic criminal to get labeled with ASPD.

DonkeyBuster wrote:
I think that someone who enjoys manipulating others just to see their reaction, without regard to their suffering as a result, (whether in person or on-line) is a sociopath.


I don't think that's psychopathy, but it's still not a good trait to have, pushing someones buttons just to get a rise or laugh is not a good trait to have.

AnnaLemma wrote:
This is very funny and dead on the behavior of the sociopath I mentioned. He was waaay too friendly to me at first. When he figured out that I couldn't do anything for him, he totally ignored me and even inconvenienced me on purpose a couple of times.


That sounds like psychopathy, nice only when it benefits the psychopath and when it doesn't benefit the psychopath they cast you aside.


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bhetti
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17 Jul 2009, 10:24 pm

my understanding is that sociopath is the "old" common term for antisocial personality disorder (ASD). ASD and NPD have quite a bit of overlap. NPD's NEED to have people admire them, but from what I've read, ASD's don't care. NPD's actively cultivate a social group for admiration or to use to prop up their rather fragile egos.



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17 Jul 2009, 10:29 pm

No, That's a classic *****. Anyone, even an NT, can be a classic run of the mill *****. Either way no one likes them, unless they are unaware of their off-putting behaviour. THEN they could be an aspie with other disorders or comorbids.



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17 Jul 2009, 10:42 pm

Batz wrote:
I would personally believe this trait as one of a sociopath. Aspies aren't manipulative, but they can be selfish. Sociopaths are manipulative and selfish. In other words, they use other people to get what they want even though they know the person isn't feeling well.
I think I'm personally more manipulative than selfish. Although I'm really too lazy to be manipulative most of the time. It's a lot of work.


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17 Jul 2009, 10:43 pm

fiddlerpianist wrote:
Callista wrote:
Rate of autism: 1:150, or
Rate of antisocial personality disorder: 3.5%
Chance of both in the same person: 1:428,000

So there should be about 14,000 autistic sociopaths in the world.

Huh? That would only be the case if the two were known to be unrelated. And does APD the same thing as a sociopath?
I'm guessing they are unrelated. I don't know if it's a good guess.

Yes. Antisocial personality is the modern name for sociopathy.
Quote:
1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.


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17 Jul 2009, 10:44 pm

Rainbow-Squirrel wrote:
This is something I still haven't understood clearly: aren't Aspies sociopaths by nature ? Why are they often refered to as two distinct groups ? Of course there are NT sociopaths but how comes Aspies are not sociopaths ?

Edit: to answer the question yes, I consider myself quite selfish, wouldn't know about manipulative, I try to do as much as I can by myself.

I do not see any resemblance between the two whatsoever.

Traits such as being glib, lack of remorse shame or guilt, pathological lying, being unable to love, being callous promiscuous or criminal are commonly associated with sociopathy and do not see what such traits have to do with AS in particular.

to answer the question

I may be selfish, (although I try not to be), but I lack the competencies necessary for successful manipulation.



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17 Jul 2009, 11:33 pm

Quote:
I may be selfish, (although I try not to be), but I lack the competencies necessary for successful manipulation.


Says it all really. One can be socially dysfunctional without being sociopathic, surely.

I find I spend my life in a sort of amiable befuddlement, socially speaking. Lit by occasional conflagrations of rage.

I'm gradually getting better at asking for help, but there's not a lot of response.



bhetti
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17 Jul 2009, 11:55 pm

oops, just realized I put ASD where I should have put APD (antisocial personality disorder).



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18 Jul 2009, 12:47 am

Wouldn't the lack of social understanding mean that it would be almost impossible for an Aspie to be very manipulative? When i think of manipulative, i think of someone who understands people GREATLY, and uses that understanding to mess with peoples' minds to get what they want. That would be like the exact opposite of an aspie. I think it's like the "Empathy vs. Sympathy" thing.. Aspies lack empathy, but usually not sympathy. Sociopaths lack sympathy, but usually not empathy. Their empathy is what makes so many of them successful manipulators. I think the extent of most aspies' "manipulative" ability would be to keep on and on about something until the other person just gives in(that's me, anyway! ask my parents!).. No mind games.
And i don't really see how being selfish has to do with AS, either. I see how the APPEARANCE of selfishness would, due to lack of social understanding/emotional reciprocity/etc., but not actual selfishness(not any more than any other person, anyway). From what i understand, the "selfish" idea of aspies has more to do with AS/NT misunderstandings than anything :? But maybe i'm wrong.

On a side note.. I would think that, due to this whole "selfish" view some people have of Aspies, a lot of people who are ACTUALLY sociopaths or narcissists might be mistakingly diagnosed with AS, by people who don't have an in-depth understanding of it.. They might just not care about anyone but themselves, and then the under-informed school psychologist says "aha! lack of empathy! it's aspergers!"... Because an aspie being good at manipulating people kind of makes no sense at all.

I don't consider myself selfish at all. Once people actually get to know me, they realize that i'm not selfish. But it might sometimes appear that i am, because i can forget to respond to certain little social things and i don't look affected in the normal way by other peoples' misfortunes. Doesn't mean i care less than an NT(i probably care more!), but the way to show it correctly just doesn't come to me. I think i'm making progress in finding my own ways to show it, though. Like my mom doesn't like that i don't like to give her hugs and that i don't usually express my feelings.. But i'll try to show her i care by picking up something for her at the store that i heard her mention. One time when she was obviously VERY distressed, crying and talking about how bad she felt, i even managed to go over and initiate a hug, even if it was rather robotic. That meant a lot to her, since i don't usually do things like that. Yeah...



decoder
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18 Jul 2009, 4:58 am

ColdBlooded wrote:
When i think of manipulative, i think of someone who understands people GREATLY, and uses that understanding to mess with peoples' minds to get what they want. That would be like the exact opposite of an aspie. I think it's like the "Empathy vs. Sympathy" thing.. Aspies lack empathy, but usually not sympathy. Sociopaths lack sympathy, but usually not empathy. Their empathy is what makes so many of them successful manipulators.



That's me alright. I have a great understanding of other people's minds, intentions etc. Putting myself in another's shoes is what I do to a great extent. It renders me a master manipulator as well as it opens an insight to psychology, social psychology etc. I think the latter one is the good part. However as I wrote previously, my sociopathic acts are restricted with my inability to socialize as an aspie. I can control people but I cant make them love me, I dont intend it at all. No gestures, no lies. I am very good at giving advice even in very delicate situations but I cant condolence people. No physical interactions or "courtings" as you say. I prefer to "command" people which I believe is the "aspie" way of directing people.

I think that also the very logical and constantly analyzing nature of asperger keeps me from becoming a downright sociopath. It is like the brain is aware of its sociopathic tendencies and usually supresses them. The fact I've always seen myself as a "good and reasonable person" justifies that I have somewhat control and consciousness of the sociopathic urges.

It would be great if an aspie with sociopathy comes and shares his/her ideas. I am very confused since the last night :roll: :)



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18 Jul 2009, 5:08 am

Now i'm really confused. You said you have a really good understanding of what people think and everything AND you're an aspie?
Maybe i'm missing something. :?



decoder
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18 Jul 2009, 5:48 am

ColdBlooded wrote:
Now i'm really confused. You said you have a really good understanding of what people think and everything AND you're an aspie?
Maybe i'm missing something. :?


It doesnt work as you imagine. While interacting, I hardly sense any emotion, gesture, bad intention, jokes,. I am usually just as confused as you are while in social intercourse. It is when I am left alone the simulating of another individual occurs. It is like you are at his/her position and the data you have about that individual helps to theorize his/her possible actions, reactions, thoughts. When I am with people, I am really helpless and quite unwise. It is later that what really happened and what was intended occurs to me. This "manipulating and anticipating" skill doesnt help me with/while social relations at all. It is not a social skill (at least for me), it works as some sort of intelligence (I of CIA).



Last edited by decoder on 18 Jul 2009, 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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18 Jul 2009, 6:01 am

Oh, that's interesting. I guess that does make some sense.



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18 Jul 2009, 6:17 am

I don't think the "theory of mind" hypothesis really gets down to the bottom of what makes people with AS behave in a way that may appear selfish, but there's certainly something true in it. Whatever it is, I imagine that I (along with many of us) think and reason in a more "selfish" fashion. I can see how, as a result, I may come across as manipulative because I may be more inclined to lead conversations and groups of people on my own terms. One difference is that I can't imagine that I'm very good at being manipulative.

The distinction between being passively selfish and actively selfish that someone mentioned seems to be important. I don't get any pleasure out of manipulating other people, it's not something I actively do.



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18 Jul 2009, 10:05 am

Callista wrote:
Rate of autism: 1:150, or
Rate of antisocial personality disorder: 3.5%
Chance of both in the same person: 1:428,000

So there should be about 14,000 autistic sociopaths in the world.


While I'm sure there are SOME autistic sociopaths, it's not that simple a statistic; many of the characteristics contradict each other. Sociopaths tend to be charismatic. There are, perhaps, a few charismatic autistic, but not many. Charisma requires ability to be what people want you to be, which isn't exactly a trait common in autistic.
To be manipulative, you have to be able to judge people's reactions to things as you go, and behave in ways and say things that alters how people act towards you and towards what you want to manipulate them about. It's just not something most autistic are capable of. Perhaps there are autistic who wish they were manipulative and who try to manipulate others, but they wouldn't be very good at it. Sociopaths recognize what people want and how they feel very easilly; that's the basis of manipulative. It requires extraordinary people skills.

I don't know about y'all, but I'm not as convincing when I'm telling the TRUTH as a sociopath is when they're lying.