Page 3 of 4 [ 62 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

MichelleRM78
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 1 Mar 2010
Age: 45
Gender: Female
Posts: 303
Location: Wisconsin

19 Mar 2010, 9:36 am

Sorry, I am not good with this quote thing, so I am going to try to address just a couple things:

Many of our traits are interpreted wrongly as hostile while we perfectly know that they are not meant as such
fact is it is the hostility of the NT which is responsible for the wrong interpretation


I don't know that NTs are responsible for the wrong interpretation. The majority of people are actually wired that way, therefore it becomes what people expect. If you have never been exposed to something, you aren't going to understand it. Example: I watch the show Mystery Diagnosis sometimes. These people can go through many, many doctors before they get an actual diagnosis, because the doctors had never been exposed to these diseases. No, I am not calling AS a disease. I am referring to the lack of exposure to AS for most people.

NT should learn to accept us as who we are(we are good ppl)

I think most people would accept AS people for who they are. With the mis-communications, however, its hard to understand WHO you are.

Example: Men and women mis-communicate all the time. Most of the time its like we are speaking different languages. I adjust my communication in order to relay my thoughts and feelings to him and vice versa. I speak very differently to my girlfriends. I don't think that it's me having to disregard who I am. Its me putting effort into communicating with those I really want to.

The fact is, AS and NT people need to interact. There is not a separate country for people with AS. We all need to do our part to understand each other. People with AS who refuse to explain or adjust at all won't help this situation. It's not just NTs who need to adjust. This is why I like forums like this. It gives us a harmless way to actually say how we all interprete things. It's educational and eye opening.



pat2rome
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,819
Location: Georgia

19 Mar 2010, 9:47 am

Nara, it's quite possible you feel that the vast majority of people are insincere simply because you don't pick up on everything they're communicating. It's as if I'm saying "I don't like that" but all you hear is "I like that." Of course you're going to feel I'm insincere, you didn't get the whole message.


_________________
I'm never gonna dance again, Aspie feet have got no rhythm.


nara44
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2008
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 545
Location: Israel

19 Mar 2010, 10:02 am

It's not like the female-male thing because it is possible for AS to live with out NT
I almost have no connections with NT's and my life is much better for it
I feel much better among AS because i don't have to explain the obvious all the time and no one is forcing me to act in a way that disintegrate me
It's the same way NT can understand NT beyond words because they are wired to expect the same things
most of the so called AS traits are just the results of different expectations(expectations are expression of sense of time and space and as such are very important to the integrity if the id,for instance ,our taking things too literally or not reading behind the lines is not a problem when i'm with some one who is wired like me,it's a fake symptom and if people would understand it a lot of money and effort and pain would be saved by not trying to change what is impossible to change because it isn't real defect
BTW
one of AS "traits" is what seems like androgyny and because of that many times AS can have much better femal-male communication than the average macho



MichelleRM78
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 1 Mar 2010
Age: 45
Gender: Female
Posts: 303
Location: Wisconsin

19 Mar 2010, 10:09 am

Can AS really live without NTs? Maybe I should start another topic on this-- because I don't necessarily think that's true. Most of the world is comprised on Non-AS people. So I don't believe that an AS person can actually live without interacting with people without AS.

NTs have constant misinterpretations of each other. We are wired to look for and understand non-verbal communication, but NT misinterpret each other constantly! It's not so different, really. People need to clarify their meaning and intentions on a daily basis.

Maybe another example would be companies that function in the multiple countries. These employees need to learn customs of other countries so as not to offend. Certain hand gestures in the US (the OK sign) are actually completely offensive in other countries. It's a matter of mutual respect and understanding that is needed- not segregation.



nara44
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2008
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 545
Location: Israel

19 Mar 2010, 10:12 am

pat2rome wrote:
Nara, it's quite possible you feel that the vast majority of people are insincere simply because you don't pick up on everything they're communicating. It's as if I'm saying "I don't like that" but all you hear is "I like that." Of course you're going to feel I'm insincere, you didn't get the whole message.


Well,at least in my case this is not true,i understand NT and why they act the way they do quite well,
as many AS i'm quite methodical and doesn't rely on my subjectivity alone and i can see that most of the time i can predict the outcome of the interactions very accurately
Most people are egomaniacs and that's just the way it is
I don't blame any one as people do what they think it's the best to survive
But it would be unwise to ignore the fact that most of the time the outcome is quite tragic whether i pick up the hidden message or not
It would be unwise if not insincere to ignore the fact that most of the time people try to manipulate one another for short sighted goals
If u believe that the world is full of love and understanding i won't stand in your way
but i don't believe it to be true



Last edited by nara44 on 19 Mar 2010, 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

ursaminor
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Nov 2009
Age: 158
Gender: Male
Posts: 936
Location: Leiden, Netherlands

19 Mar 2010, 10:20 am

But why do you still rely on such a faulty system if you misinterpret each other lots of times?



MichelleRM78
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 1 Mar 2010
Age: 45
Gender: Female
Posts: 303
Location: Wisconsin

19 Mar 2010, 10:25 am

ursaminor wrote:
But why do you still rely on such a faulty system if you misinterpret each other lots of times?


What do you mean "faulty system?" We misinterpret words, facial expressions, and tone of speech. That's what we all rely on. Some words are "taken" differently by certain people. That's where clarification comes in. It's the ability to clarify, re-state, and be accepting of clarification that makes the system actually work. If you can only rely on words the first time its said, we would all be in trouble. Big trouble.

Nobody (that I know of) claimed that communication was perfect or easy. It's a constant battle for everyone to improve their methods.



nara44
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2008
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 545
Location: Israel

19 Mar 2010, 10:29 am

MichelleRM78 wrote:
Can AS really live without NTs? Maybe I should start another topic on this-- because I don't necessarily think that's true. Most of the world is comprised on Non-AS people. So I don't believe that an AS person can actually live without interacting with people without AS.

NTs have constant misinterpretations of each other. We are wired to look for and understand non-verbal communication, but NT misinterpret each other constantly! It's not so different, really. People need to clarify their meaning and intentions on a daily basis.

Maybe another example would be companies that function in the multiple countries. These employees need to learn customs of other countries so as not to offend. Certain hand gestures in the US (the OK sign) are actually completely offensive in other countries. It's a matter of mutual respect and understanding that is needed- not segregation.


I can see the NT constant misinterpretation of one another since my childhood and it pained me very much
Ironically AS are wired to be a better communicators
just not with the NT
I get by because like many AS i work as a programmer
a job that doesn't require much "social skills"(by your honest answer i get that u too admit that NT are not as skillful as they like us to think)
AS are less influence by the local patterns as we are strangers any place
that why we are more suitable to work and communicate across national boundaries
For instance
I was born in Israel(sorry for my English,have almost zero schooling because of my autism) but most of my contracts are from abroad and i don't feel Israeli
or Jewish and been told many times that i don't look and behaves typically .
Like many people here I'm from the wrong planet so ism equally strange anywhere



MichelleRM78
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 1 Mar 2010
Age: 45
Gender: Female
Posts: 303
Location: Wisconsin

19 Mar 2010, 10:39 am

nara44 wrote:
MichelleRM78 wrote:
Can AS really live without NTs? Maybe I should start another topic on this-- because I don't necessarily think that's true. Most of the world is comprised on Non-AS people. So I don't believe that an AS person can actually live without interacting with people without AS.

NTs have constant misinterpretations of each other. We are wired to look for and understand non-verbal communication, but NT misinterpret each other constantly! It's not so different, really. People need to clarify their meaning and intentions on a daily basis.

Maybe another example would be companies that function in the multiple countries. These employees need to learn customs of other countries so as not to offend. Certain hand gestures in the US (the OK sign) are actually completely offensive in other countries. It's a matter of mutual respect and understanding that is needed- not segregation.


I can see the NT constant misinterpretation of one another since my childhood and it pained me very much
Ironically AS are wired to be a better communicators
just not with the NT
I get by because like many AS i work as a programmer
a job that doesn't require much "social skills"(by your honest answer i get that u too admit that NT are not as skillful as they like us to think)
AS are less influence by the local patterns as we are strangers any place
that why we are more suitable to work and communicate across national boundaries
For instance
I was born in Israel(sorry for my English,have almost zero schooling because of my autism) but most of my contracts are from abroad and i don't feel Israeli
or Jewish and been told many times that i don't look and behaves typically .
Like many people here I'm from the wrong planet so ism equally strange anywhere


But that's just it-- I don't think that most NTs claim to be skillful at communication. In fact, there are people in therapy everyday and taking classes to learn to communicate more effectively. I think because its the majority of the world who communicate this way, it becomes the "norm," but not necessarily the most efficient or more or less correct.

I would be ignorant if I claimed that NT's had nothing to learn from people with AS. I do think there is a lot to learn. I also think the opposite is true. I believe that the AS community could teach NTs a lot-- if they took the time to figure out how to get their messages across.



pat2rome
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,819
Location: Georgia

19 Mar 2010, 10:48 am

MichelleRM78 wrote:
I also think the opposite is true. I believe that the AS community could teach NTs a lot-- if they took the time to figure out how to get their messages across.


Exactly. The whole "NT's should learn how to understand us" is selfish unless it's matched with "and I could learn how to understand NT's better too."


_________________
I'm never gonna dance again, Aspie feet have got no rhythm.


nara44
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2008
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 545
Location: Israel

19 Mar 2010, 11:23 am


I would be ignorant if I claimed that NT's had nothing to learn from people with AS. I do think there is a lot to learn. I also think the opposite is true. I believe that the AS community could teach NTs a lot-- if they took the time to figure out how to get their messages across.


Sure,
Guess that another important internet enabled channel,
I,For instance have very hard time talking at all( 10 words a month is a record for me) and so are many other AS,
But i can write and i think the AS collective voice wouldn't materialize if not for the net which transcend time and space in a way which is very natural to us

everybody should learn,learning is fun,learning is love,problem is, as the OP wrote,that too many people are trying to normalize us and too many times u can't get a job a get a proper education because u don't talk 'normal'/



MichelleRM78
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 1 Mar 2010
Age: 45
Gender: Female
Posts: 303
Location: Wisconsin

19 Mar 2010, 11:28 am

nara44 wrote:

I would be ignorant if I claimed that NT's had nothing to learn from people with AS. I do think there is a lot to learn. I also think the opposite is true. I believe that the AS community could teach NTs a lot-- if they took the time to figure out how to get their messages across.


Sure,
Guess that another important internet enabled channel,
I,For instance have very hard time talking at all( 10 words a month is a record for me) and so are many other AS,
But i can write and i think the AS collective voice wouldn't materialize if not for the net which transcend time and space in a way which is very natural to us

everybody should learn,learning is fun,learning is love,problem is, as the OP wrote,that too many people are trying to normalize us and too many times u can't get a job a get a proper education because u don't talk 'normal'/


The joys of being part of a "minority." :roll: Every type of minority is, to some extent, expected to blend in with the majority. It's a lot easier to expect 1% of people to change than it is 99%. I am not saying this expectation is correct, but its the way people function. Everyone needs to get out of their comfort zone to promote change. As said earlier, I was really uncomfortable with my bf's son. I had to be uncomfortable to relate to him. It may be uncomfortable to talk or voice opinion, but if people don't, change will not happen. Blaming the "other group" won't do anybody any good, and it will only create more hostility and hate.



mechanicalgirl39
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Apr 2009
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,340

19 Mar 2010, 2:49 pm

pat2rome wrote:
MichelleRM78 wrote:
I also think the opposite is true. I believe that the AS community could teach NTs a lot-- if they took the time to figure out how to get their messages across.


Exactly. The whole "NT's should learn how to understand us" is selfish unless it's matched with "and I could learn how to understand NT's better too."


Agreed. Both sides should show each other understanding. That's what fairness is about.


_________________
'You're so cold, but you feel alive
Lay your hands on me, one last time' (Breaking Benjamin)


Eggman
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jul 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,676

19 Mar 2010, 9:29 pm

nothing


_________________
Pwning the threads with my mad 1337 skillz.


Who_Am_I
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,632
Location: Australia

20 Mar 2010, 5:31 am

nara44 wrote:
Who_Am_I wrote:

I don't fake affection. However, a total lack of eye contact, facial expression and vocal inflection is read by most people as indicating hostility. Since I am indifferent rather than hostile to most people, what is wrong with adjusting my nonverbal signals so that they will transmit my intent in ways that will be read accurately by most people? This is not lying as I am not trying to deceive people. Prior to learning about the purpose of nonverbal communication, I was unintentionally sending false signals.

The fact that I needed an explanation meant that you had not explained yourself clearly enough. Please don't try to blame me for the fact that you threw out a two-sentence assertion with no evidence to back it up.


I don't blame u but life doesn't need evidence and what i wrote is based on my life experience which include countless little incidence and details and as such it is not suitable to be treated as some equation or formula,
i didn't meant it as an offense


I didn't want an equation or a formula, just some examples of things that have shaped your thinking about NTs.

Quote:
if u feel ppl are sincere so be it
I don't


I have noticed that most people don't have wild discrepancies between their words and actions. I interpret this as meaning that people are largely sincere. What makes you think they aren't?

Quote:
But even from your current response i can see that i may have some valid point since u have chosen to conform to the way other misinterpret u and by doing so u r not only harming your personal integrity but also damaging the vital struggle of the AS as a group to get a recognition as a legitemate identity and a way of life,
and by doing so u may took what look as the easy and the shortest path but in the long run not just us but society at large would loose a great deal,
because,


That would be valid only if I felt some sense of attachment to being expressionless and talking in a monotone. I don't; they were just things that I did automatically until I realised that they could and would be interpreted badly.
I wouldn't really call constantly attending to my expression, stance and voice characteristics as "the easiest and shortest path". It's constant hard work that I don't see ever ending.

Quote:
Many of our traits are interpreted wrongly as hostile while we perfectly know that they are not meant as such
fact is it is the hostility of the NT which is responsible for the wrong interpretation


I disagree. NTs do not seem hostile, for the most part. Most of them, not knowing about ASDs, react to us with the same set of assumptions that they'd use for a typical person- and in a typical person, flat affect often means hostility. They're not projecting, they're just applying a set of rules to a situation where said rules don't apply, and they have no way of initially knowing that their rules won't work.


Quote:
our lack of eye contact, facial expression and vocal inflection(not always, mind u) is an essential part of our id
u r the way u behave
medium and message are one
if u change the way u behave because ppl mistake u for being something u know perfectly well u r not u become something worth
u loose contact with your inner logic and consequenlty your integrity and talent


Do you tell people that because when they were babies they cried if they didn't get what they wanted, that they should do the same as adults, because crying is an essential part of their identity and that they are losing an essential part of themselves?
One of the most useful things about being human is the ability to see if a behaviour is less than helpful, and modify or eliminate it. It's development of oneself, not losing oneself.
I still have my integrity, and my talent had nothing to do with what my face looks like or how my voice sounds. Occasionally smiling at people hasn't, surprisingly enough, killed my brain. I didn't smile at people in the past because of an attachment to a blank face; it was because I had no idea that not smiling would elicit a negative emotional response.

Quote:
there is no point in tolerance if in order to enjoy it u have to fit a distorted version of u
NT should learn to accept us as who we are(we are good ppl) if not they can f**k themselves as far as I'm concern


They should have to wonder what they've done wrong and why we dislike them every time they talk to us? That doesn't seem reasonable to me. If you can control how you present yourself, what's wrong with making the effort not to make people feel bad by your presence?
It seems to me that if I knew that people felt bad because of their mistaken perception of me, and I didn't change, that that is tantamount to deliberately hurting them. You can be a saint, but if you don't show it in ways that people can understand, you can hardly blame them for not realising. What was it you said about "medium and message are one?". That would mean that if you give a hostile "message", you are hostile.

Quote:
i tolerate them they should tolerate me(never forced an NT to behave like me,i can get and accept that there are different type of ppl and many different way to experience the complex reality we occupy)
it's as simple as that


I agree; it should work both ways, but I still don't think that a little effort on my part is a bad thing.


Quote:
in short
your intentions are good
but u r sending a misleading signal
both to the outside world and to yourself


No; I am now sending the signal that I wanted to broadcast. My past signals were misleading.
I don't understand how any of this is sending a signal to myself; could you elaborate further?


_________________
Music Theory 101: Cadences.
Authentic cadence: V-I
Plagal cadence: IV-I
Deceptive cadence: V- ANYTHING BUT I ! !! !
Beethoven cadence: V-I-V-I-V-V-V-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I
-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I! I! I! I I I


nara44
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2008
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 545
Location: Israel

20 Mar 2010, 6:39 am


I have noticed that most people don't have wild discrepancies between their words and actions. I interpret this as meaning that people are largely sincere. What makes you think they aren't?


Not wild ,
But part of being sensitive and creative is noticing even the smallest discrepancies,
It is no coincidence that paying attention the the smallest things is great part of what is driving science and art and even our daily life
Development as a rule is a struggle for a higher resolutions
BTW
In a Way AS blank expression and monotone voice doesn't look blank and sound monotone to me because i get the smallest details which elude most NT
(AS ability to notice very small and seemingly unimportant details is almost a cliche and i brought that up just to show that everything is interrelated and have a logic and a reason,we aren't blank just to annoy the NT,we just more attentive and consequently less dramatic,it's like the difference between acting for the TV and the big screen or the theater where in theater u need big gestures in order to get your message across and on TV a slight twitch would do the job much better,
well,
I live and sense the world at HD and can't behave like i live in a silent movie the way NT expect me to because then i go blind and deaf



That would be valid only if I felt some sense of attachment to being expressionless and talking in a monotone. I don't; they were just things that I did automatically until I realised that they could and would be interpreted badly.
I wouldn't really call constantly attending to my expression, stance and voice characteristics as "the easiest and shortest path". It's constant hard work that I don't see ever ending.


I have no attachment to being my self
that exactly what is so great about it
i like to live and i think i have the basic right to go about with out planing ahead my tone and facial expression
being too selfcontcios is no good to your health and it is certainly no fun
and the crying baby metaphor don't fit the facts
i'm not the one who raise hell on any little meaningless issue
nost of the time it's the NT who are so infantile they wouldn't let u talk and express yourself naturally just because they think every boduy should be the same


I disagree. NTs do not seem hostile, for the most part. Most of them, not knowing about ASDs, react to us with the same set of assumptions that they'd use for a typical person- and in a typical person, flat affect often means hostility. They're not projecting, they're just applying a set of rules to a situation where said rules don't apply, and they have no way of initially knowing that their rules won't work.


applying a set of rules to a situation where said rules don't apply is part of the definition of projection
Interpreting a flat effect as hostile when u perfectly know it isn't(on the contrary,it's a sign of sensitivity to the others) is the result of buried hostility because when it silent or the situation is unknown everyone hear and see himself reflected in the void .




They should have to wonder what they've done wrong and why we dislike them every time they talk to us? That doesn't seem reasonable to me. If you can control how you present yourself, what's wrong with making the effort not to make people feel bad by your presence?
It seems to me that if I knew that people felt bad because of their mistaken perception of me, and I didn't change, that that is tantamount to deliberately hurting them. You can be a saint, but if you don't show it in ways that people can understand, you can hardly blame them for not realising. What was it you said about "medium and message are one?". That would mean that if you give a hostile "message", you are hostile.


Yea,they should,but i don't want to and can't enforce knowledge on any on
that's why i avoid NT as much as i can
And i don't give hostile message but my quite saintly :-) intentions are interpreted as such by the pigs
U can't and shouldn't please everyone
That the shortest path to become a nasty person in a society like ours
Sometimes u have to choose and live with your choices even if it desn't pay well
That the meaning of being human
and it is this difficult choices that make society move forward


No; I am now sending the signal that I wanted to broadcast. My past signals were misleading.
I don't understand how any of this is sending a signal to myself; could you elaborate further?


But the error was on the receiver so by changing the transmitter u kill the message and your identity
u cant sending a signal that compensate the errors on the other end with out changing your own wavelength
and the wavelength is you
it's the unique distance or border between your inside and outside
u can't change your outside without changing your inside
u can
but it will destroy u
and for an unworthy cause