Lack of empathy? Tony Atwood Disagrees.

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Ichinin
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29 Sep 2010, 10:19 pm

I wrote to Tony and asked what he meant by "a lack of empathy" as he mentioned in his book "The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome". I also mentioned that i found it insulting to me as an Aspie to be associated with such (psychopaths) people, because i DO have emotions, i can put myself in someone elses shoes as an adult, even though i couldn't not as a kid.

I also brought up "A lack of social reciprocity": from the examples in point 4 at the following page:
http://www.theaspergersconnection.org/c ... ement.html

Here is his reply:

Quote:
Thank you so much for your message and I think it is important to explain the misinterpretation of other people’s suggestions of a lack of empathy for people with Asperger’s syndrome. I think there are two factors here, one is that the person with Asperger’s syndrome may not be able to read the subtle signals in another person in facial expression, body language and gesture that would normally be associated with a response of compassion or affection. Thus, if the person with Asperger’s syndrome does not respond with a hug or words of compassion the neurotypical then assumes that the person with Asperger’s syndrome lacks care and empathy. It is not that the person lacks care and empathy it is more that they didn’t read the signals. Once the signals are recognized, the person with Asperger’s syndrome can be remarkably kind and supportive.



The other comment is that I also think that those with Asperger’s syndrome may have a sixth sense to pick up negative attitude in a particular environment. Often from my clinical work and reading autobiographies the person with Asperger’s syndrome describes almost a hypersensitivity to agitation or anxiety in a group of people or in a room. Some people with Asperger’s syndrome have described how they have developed a characteristic somewhat like a ‘cactus’ in terms of a very prickly exterior to prevent injury or damage to a very soft and vulnerable interior.



Like you, I am very concerned that some people suggest that there is no empathy and this is an insult to people who are remarkably kind.



Best Wishes

Tony

Professor Tony Attwood

Brisbane, Australia

Tel: +** (*)* **** **** (Edited out for privacy)

Em: tony@***********.***.** (Edited out for privacy)

Web: www.tonyattwood.com.au



We seriously need to end this BS that aspies do not have empathy. People with antisocial personality disorder lack empathy, i.e. they have zero respect for other peoples boundaries or personal safety. They do not give a s**t about other people and i want to distance myself from those kind of animals. Not understanding what to do in a social situation is not a lack of empathy, it is a lack of knowing how to react, i am especially pointing to the example with the kid in the link i posted:

( http://www.theaspergersconnection.org/c ... ement.html )

Quote:
For example, Max enjoyed going to the supermarket with his mother. He liked to help prepare the shopping list, easily located the items on the shelves, loved to sample the free food often available, and calculated the correct change while in the check-out line. However, when the cashier spoke to him and tried to make small talk, he generally did not look at her, did not answer her questions, and sometimes made a remark completely off the topic, but one that was of interest to him.

Similarly, Bob was walking outside with his mother on a cold winter day, when his mother slipped and fell on the ice. Bob clearly was aware something was not quite right, as he immediately began to scream. What he did not do was ask his mother if she were okay, and offer to help her, as a typical child his age probably would have done.


Thank you all for reading, please reconsider stopping the spread of stupid ASSumptions and think twice before you utter the words "lack of empathy" ever again when describing Aspergers.


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buryuntime
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29 Sep 2010, 10:29 pm

I can't say I feel as passionately about it as you. It doesn't really bother me much when I'm told I lack empathy, because I know that it isn't true and that if I can't express it appropriately I might as well not have it at all.



ScottyN
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29 Sep 2010, 10:29 pm

Some good points made. Mr. Atwood is indeed an expert on this topic, so his opinions must be taken seriously. I only have one further question for the OP. Has he been diagnosed with AS by a team of psychiatric professionals? I ask this because his high level of "emotional affect" when responding to posts he has a very passionate viewpoint about, seems to be a highly developed neurotypical response.



buryuntime
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29 Sep 2010, 10:32 pm

ScottyN wrote:
Some good points made. Mr. Atwood is indeed an expert on this topic, so his opinions must be taken seriously. I only have one further question for the OP. Has he been diagnosed with AS by a team of psychiatric professionals? I ask this because his high level of "emotional affect" when responding to posts he has a very passionate viewpoint about, seems to be a highly developed neurotypical response.

Huh? I don't believe Atwood has Asperger's Syndrome... he's just a well-known person who diagnoses it...



ScottyN
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29 Sep 2010, 10:39 pm

What I mean is: Does Ichinin have AS. Have you been diagnosed? I always thought people with AS were less emotionally involved with subjects in general. You seem to show high levels of affect, so I just wanted to know.



ScottyN
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29 Sep 2010, 10:40 pm

What I mean is: Does Ichinin have AS. Have you been diagnosed? I always thought people with AS were less emotionally involved with subjects in general. You seem to show high levels of affect, so I just wanted to know.



buryuntime
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29 Sep 2010, 10:43 pm

ScottyN wrote:
What I mean is: Does Ichinin have AS. Have you been diagnosed? I always thought people with AS were less emotionally involved with subjects in general. You seem to show high levels of affect, so I just wanted to know.

Sorry. Their profile states undiagnosed, but that might have changed or even be false. But I find it a bit ironic that you're questioning emotional involvement when the OP is saying that autistics don't lack empathy.



yellowtamarin
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29 Sep 2010, 10:58 pm

Ichinin wrote:
We seriously need to end this BS that aspies do not have empathy. People with antisocial personality disorder lack empathy, i.e. they have zero respect for other peoples boundaries or personal safety. They do not give a sh** about other people and i want to distance myself from those kind of animals. Not understanding what to do in a social situation is not a lack of empathy, it is a lack of knowing how to react, i am especially pointing to the example with the kid in the link i posted:

( http://www.theaspergersconnection.org/c ... ement.html )

Quote:
For example, Max enjoyed going to the supermarket with his mother. He liked to help prepare the shopping list, easily located the items on the shelves, loved to sample the free food often available, and calculated the correct change while in the check-out line. However, when the cashier spoke to him and tried to make small talk, he generally did not look at her, did not answer her questions, and sometimes made a remark completely off the topic, but one that was of interest to him.

Similarly, Bob was walking outside with his mother on a cold winter day, when his mother slipped and fell on the ice. Bob clearly was aware something was not quite right, as he immediately began to scream. What he did not do was ask his mother if she were okay, and offer to help her, as a typical child his age probably would have done.


Your description of the those with antisocial personality disorder seems to be referring more to sympathy then empathy, as mentioned in another thread. Empathy has nothing do to with how the person feels, i.e. whether they feel bad for someone or care about them. It is to do with understanding the emotional state of another (cognitive), and responding appropriately (affective). You have illustrated lack of affective empathy perfectly with the example of Bob. But, interestingly, it is the cognitive empathy, the understanding part, that shows up in the research as being lacking in those with AS. As Tony Atwood said, "once the signals are recognized, the person with Asperger’s syndrome can be remarkably kind and supportive", therefore I suggest that the cognitive empathy deficits can lead to an appearance of affective empathy deficits.



ScottyN
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29 Sep 2010, 10:59 pm

O.K. Buryuntime answered my question for me. I should have checked his profile. Thanks, that is all I wanted to know.



Ichinin
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29 Sep 2010, 11:22 pm

ScottyN wrote:
O.K. Buryuntime answered my question for me. I should have checked his profile. Thanks, that is all I wanted to know.



To sum it up:

I have been examined by two psychiatrists they have both come to the same conclusion that i should get a diagnosis, because there were clear indicators of Aspergers or a similar Autism spectrum disorder, i went there because my diagnosed aspie friend said that "You're quite aspie, you should check yourself".

Every test i've taken on the net says the same. I'm currently standing in line for a diagnosis, but since i'm quite high functional, moreso than the most people here, it's not really that crucial for my life, even if i can get some help in life from it if my life should change from good to crap.


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daydreamer84
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29 Sep 2010, 11:25 pm

So then ....what is the distinction between social reciprocity and affective empathy? Is affective empathy understanding emotions (i.e. reading social cues) and social reciprocity responding appropriately to said emotions? I'm a psych student so it is kind of embarrassing that I have to ask this lol.



Ichinin
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29 Sep 2010, 11:26 pm

yellowtamarin wrote:
I suggest that the cognitive empathy deficits can lead to an appearance of affective empathy deficits.


And i have made my point clear in the thread that points to this thread:

Basically, a lack of social reciprocity is NOT a lack of empathy.

That is how it is defined in the diagnostic criteria, and that is what it should be called.


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Ichinin
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29 Sep 2010, 11:34 pm

daydreamer84 wrote:
So then ....what is the distinction between social reciprocity and affective empathy? Is affective empathy understanding emotions (i.e. reading social cues) and social reciprocity responding appropriately to said emotions? I'm a psych student so it is kind of embarrassing that I have to ask this lol.


I'd suggest not getting your answers from this thread since there seems to be a big problem understanding the word empathy. I'd write to and ask professional psychiatrists instead.

For me the word empathy purely means that you can put yourself in someone elses position, not that you cannot read someones signals. Basically "Theory of mind"; You understand that there are other people in this world that are as worth as much as you, and they are not bots as in a computergame that you can play with. Others here have a different opinion.

True, i was in "my own world" when i was younger, but i never had any problems placing myself in someone else's position, i just COULD NOT READ other people until a certain age. I still have problems understanding some social cues, like if a girl is interested in me is sort of 50/50 hit and miss.


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yellowtamarin
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29 Sep 2010, 11:53 pm

Ichinin wrote:
yellowtamarin wrote:
I suggest that the cognitive empathy deficits can lead to an appearance of affective empathy deficits.


And i have made my point clear in the thread that points to this thread:

Basically, a lack of social reciprocity is NOT a lack of empathy.

That is how it is defined in the diagnostic criteria, and that is what it should be called.

That's quite correct, social reciprocity is not a lack of empathy. Social reciprocity may be lacking for any of a number of reasons. Sympathy may be one. Empathy may be another. (Apathy could be a third.) You seem to be suggesting it is none of these in AS, but a separate construct which refers to "being able to read the emotional signals of another". I would argue that this is a part of cognitive empathy - being able to read another person is synonymous to understanding their thoughts and feelings, because you understand their thoughts and feelings by reading their signals. I can't think of any other way that you would do it.



yellowtamarin
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30 Sep 2010, 12:01 am

For what it's worth I can provide the definitions of empathy according to the Penguin Dictionary of Psychology (2001):

"1. A cognitive awareness and understanding of the emotions and feelings of another person. In this sense the term's primary connotation is that of an intellectual or conceptual grasping of the affect of another.
2. A vicarious affective response to the emotional experiences of another person that mirrors or mimics that emotion. In this sense there is the clear implication that an empathic experience is a sharing of the emotion with the other person.
3. Assuming, in one's mind, the role of another person. This meaning derives from 1, but differs slightly in that there is the added notion that empathy involves taking on the perspective of the other person. This meaning is common in the literature on moral development, in which some theorists argue that empathy with another is a prerequisit for the development of a moral code."



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30 Sep 2010, 4:25 am

Ichinin wrote:
I'd suggest not getting your answers from this thread since there seems to be a big problem understanding the word empathy. I'd write to and ask professional psychiatrists instead.


I think that the professionals (certainly as far as represented on websites, books and information leaflets) are as confused, and the source of confusion. The bald statement that autistic people lack empathy is very common.