When people say Asperger's is a 'mental health' problem...

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Niall
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17 Feb 2011, 8:21 am

OddDuckNash99 wrote:
I have OCD and panic attacks in addition to Asperger's. Also, I was diagnosed with OCD before I even knew I had Asperger's. So, I have no problem classifying Asperger's as a neuropsychiatric disorder. It's in the DSM. Therefore, it has a psychiatric component to it, and it's not merely some neurological condition. It makes us do things that are considered "weird" and "abnormal." -OddDuckNash99-


OddDuckNash99 is correct to make this statement, and I agree that this is why we can regard Aperger sydrome as a "mental health problem".

On the other hand s/he also skirts round another important question.

Mental health issues are socially defined as deviations from a "norm".

Scientifically, we can define "normal" in terms of degrees of deviation (mathematically) from an average point. In some cases, such as IQ, we can measure an average (100 in the case of IQ*) and then define "abnormal" as someone who is so many points (usually defined in percentiles or standard deviations from that average).

I suspect NTs are making less scientific judgments along the same lines all the time - so some people are exceptionally stupid, bright, or plain wierd.

In the case of Aspies, I suspect most of us fall under the street category of "wierd". I know I do. It's a social convention with an equivalent in the scientific literature, usually the DSM or ICD-10, with some clearer definitions.

It becomes a "mental health problem" when it impairs social functioning.

This, ultimately, besides political considerations, is why in some countries you can still get locked up in a mental institution for disagreeing with the government. It impairs social function in a highly "normalised" society.

That doesn't make it any less "natural".

Homosexuality is natural and, given its prevalence, both in humans and other animals, normal. Therefore it was taken out of the DSM, where it should not have been in the first place and would not have been had it not been for the narrow minded individuals looking at what was perceived as "normal" in American (sic) society at the time.

So, is Asperger's a "mental health problem"? In that that deviation from measurable averages is a measure of impaired social function, yes. That said, since it's measured against social "norms" much has to do with society having a problem. In consequence, some narrow-minded individuals want an in-vitro test for Asperger syndrome, with the implication of options for termination.

There is a word for this: eugenics.

In a decent society, and I have no illusions that this will be a very long time coming, society would help its members understand, for example, that some individuals have trouble understanding non-verbal cues, while helping those individuals to read those cues as best they can.

Then it is no longer a "problem", for us or them, and can be struck from the DSM. It won't change an inability to read social signals, but it will change our ability to integrate with neurotypicals.


* As an aside, this may explain why Aspies appear to have a higher level of intelligence than the rest of the population. It's a mathematical artefact. Asperger syndrome is partially defined by removing those with impaired intellectual function from the calculation. When you calculate population averages you don't do this. Therefore you will end up with a population mean among Aspies higher than that among the general population, because those with lower intellect have already been shoved in conceptual boxes with other autistic labels.

It is possible, as Baron-Cohen has suggested, that AS has a different organic cause from those for other autistic disorders. This might imply that some people with AS but lower intellect are being misdiagnosed with those other autistic disorders. If that is the case, when those causes are found, we may have to strike higher intellectual function from the definition of AS. I expect that to happen long before society accepts people who are "different".


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wavefreak58
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17 Feb 2011, 9:02 am

Niall wrote:
Scientifically, we can define "normal" in terms of degrees of deviation (mathematically) from an average point. In some cases, such as IQ, we can measure an average (100 in the case of IQ*) and then define "abnormal" as someone who is so many points (usually defined in percentiles or standard deviations from that average).

I suspect NTs are making less scientific judgments along the same lines all the time - so some people are exceptionally stupid, bright, or plain wierd.


Scientific deviation from the norm is only part of the picture. Scientifically, a person with 160 IQ is abnormal. Socially, that person's abnormality is "good" while a person with a 40 IQ has a "bad" abnormality. Deviations from the norm are often categorized in this way. A sprinter running 100 meters under 10 seconds is rare, and scientifically abnormal. But we give such a person a gold medal at the Olympics. Someone that can't run (also "abnormal") gets nothing.

It is not the scientific judgments that cause problems for those that deviate from the norm, it is the unscientific judgments.


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17 Feb 2011, 9:59 am

I don't consider autism to be a mental health problem. This suggests that all people who are on the autism spectrum are mentally unhealthy. On the contrary, I'm fairly confident that my mental health is in better condition than that of your average individual. I'm also fairly confident that my sensory issues are not psychological.


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17 Feb 2011, 10:16 am

I don't consider AS to be a mental health issue, well not for me. I have a mental health issue now, severe anxiety and panic attacks, before I developed this I was perfectly mentally healthy. Yeah I've always had the traits of AS to put up with, but that's just the kind of brain I have. And for an AS brain it was totally fine, no additional disorders or ailments. Now there is one, and I can tell now that I am no where near mentally healthy.


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17 Feb 2011, 10:20 am

Kaybee wrote:
I don't consider autism to be a mental health problem. This suggests that all people who are on the autism spectrum are mentally unhealthy. On the contrary, I'm fairly confident that my mental health is in better condition than that of your average individual. I'm also fairly confident that my sensory issues are not psychological.


By not psychological, you mean not psychosomatic, correct?

I still think this is splitting hairs. What makes something a mental health issue in your schema?


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17 Feb 2011, 10:23 am

My opinion is that autism (the autism spectrum) is not a mental health disorder. IMO autism is a difference. We must look at what autism has contributed to the world. Without autism many of the inventions, computer advances, and technological advances would fail to have materialized. Autism can create a narrow focus beam into special intense interests that allows for new inventions, discoveries, talents, etc. As with any brain type (autistic or NT) there will be challenges and obstacles. That is a part of life. The world needs autistics as much as it needs the NTs. That is my opinion.


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17 Feb 2011, 10:27 am

I definitely don't consider Aspergers to be a mental health problem or disorder . However, I think aspects of it can cause mental health problems . There are a lot of eccentrics out there who aren't labelled with mental health problems , just a bit odd - and I think its the same with Aspergers. There are more plus sides to being Aspie than not impo.

However, my Panic disorder is definitely a mental health problem. Maybe because it's episodic, it's not part of me and I haven't always had it. It makes me feel terrible and when I'm cured ,and in remission I look back and realise that I have been ill, even though I may not have realised at the time. Like depression.

Whereas Aspergers is part of me. Actually...not part of me - Aspergers is me. Aspergers can't be cured and I'm certain I wouldn't want to be because it certainly has it's benefits. Aspergers is part of my being just as much as the fact that I was born with brown hair. You can change the colour but underneath it's always brown.. I think that's how I differentiate between aspergers and mental illness.



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17 Feb 2011, 10:32 am

wavefreak58 wrote:
scientific deviation from the norm is only part of the picture. Scientifically, a person with 160 IQ is abnormal. Socially, that person's abnormality is "good" while a person with a 40 IQ has a "bad" abnormality.

It is not the scientific judgments that cause problems for those that deviate from the norm, it is the unscientific judgments.


Agreed. On the other hand, having a very high IQ can get you into all kinds of problems socially - nobody else can understand you.

In these lights, having a very high IQ can also be a mental health problem.

That's also says more about society than having a high IQ.


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17 Feb 2011, 10:32 am

One outside point of view :

Quote:
There exists a probably true notion that nowadays it is harder for Aspergoid individuals to find and hold a job than in the 1940s when Asperger wrote his paper. Since the 1960s, Western societies have undergone significant feminization, and men are now required to behave like women in many respects: to be "team players", to have "communication skills", to work in "office gardens" instead of having a room of their own, to talk about "emotions", to possess "E.Q.", to "multi-task", and so on. Such expectations are detrimental for this type, and what in the past would have fallen within the normal variance of personality now becomes a social and professional handicap. The blessings of feminism may be putting ever more potentially creative achievers in the disabled category, thus as it were castrating society's source of progress.


http://www.paulcooijmans.com/asperger/a ... rized.html



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17 Feb 2011, 10:42 am

misswoofalot wrote:
I definitely don't consider Aspergers to be a mental health problem or disorder . However, I think aspects of it can cause mental health problems . There are a lot of eccentrics out there who aren't labelled with mental health problems , just a bit odd - and I think its the same with Aspergers. There are more plus sides to being Aspie than not impo.

However, my Panic disorder is definitely a mental health problem. Maybe because it's episodic, it's not part of me and I haven't always had it. It makes me feel terrible and when I'm cured ,and in remission I look back and realise that I have been ill, even though I may not have realised at the time. Like depression.

Whereas Aspergers is part of me. Actually...not part of me - Aspergers is me. Aspergers can't be cured and I'm certain I wouldn't want to be because it certainly has it's benefits. Aspergers is part of my being just as much as the fact that I was born with brown hair. You can change the colour but underneath it's always brown.. I think that's how I differentiate between aspergers and mental illness.


This a great way of looking at AS and things associated with it. Though I have been officially diagnosed with AS, I haven't been with OCD---but I do have OCD in my opinion. I tend to count things obsessively. I have to check doors and electrical appliances a certain number of times to assure myself they are locked or turned off. Earlier this week I was driving to work when although I knew I had checked the front door, I couldn't remember the double checking ritual---so I had to turn around and check it the double time. Fortunately I was only a mile from home. But something like OCD can be very challenging. But it has saved the house too like when my wife forgets to unplug the curling iron. Before I leave the house in the morning I check th bath tub faucet, fridge door, lights, doors, etc. But it can be tiresome.

I think your thoughts on Aspergers is wonderful...a great way of viewing it.


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17 Feb 2011, 11:19 am

There are two separate issues here. One is a scientific/clinical definition of a variant form. Autism is DEFINITELY a variant from statistical norms in both behavior and underlying neurology.Deciding whether or not it is a mental health issue is irrelevant in this context. It is what it is.

Socially, too much effort is applied to avoiding terminology that is stigmatizing and too much effort given to finding politically correct descriptions that generate the least amount of offense. This also strikes me as irrelevant. Such verbal gymnastics fail to recognize that autism is sufficiently at variance with the vast majority of the population that it has a very high probability of creating life challenges that inhibit an individual's success. Depending on the degree of variance, some of those challenges are insurmountable.

Additionally, you do not have Asperger's or autism unless you are displaying adaptation difficulties in your life. You cannot be diagnosed unless you presenting symptoms. By DEFINITION, Asperger's and autism requires psychological distress of some kind to be present. No distress? No problems to be diagnosed.

I'm a realist. I see little value in developing feel good verbiage that avoids negative cultural associations especially when this, ironically, is nothing more than participating in the same culturally driven subjective conversations that generate the negative connotations it would seek to avoid. I want to know myself, my limitations, my strengths and how to navigate the world around me. Arguing over terminology does not change what I need to learn, what I need to do, or what I actually am.


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17 Feb 2011, 11:43 am

Just say, "it isn't a mental health problem, it's a neurological disorder."

Because that's what it is.



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17 Feb 2011, 11:48 am

I had never heard of "somatic fixation" until just now reading a doctor's recent assessment of me:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12593884

??


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17 Feb 2011, 12:11 pm

I admit I have challenges, but I focus on the positives---and to me that is the key to unlocking the gifts of autism. Just because Asperger's is a minority doesn't make it a disorder in my opinion---it is a difference. Red hair is a minority as well (that often comes with a skin type that is easier sunburned (but blond hair people are often easier sunburned too)---but we don't call this a disorder---we call it a difference.

The problem is that the world is generally more intolerant to brain types different than the majority. The problem with Asperger's tends to be with the general population not accepting differences in the manner in which they should.

Asperger's/autism is needed in the world. Without it, many of our scientific advances would not have been realized. I hardly can call Asperger's/autism a disorder if it has contributed so much to the world.

Every brain type has its challenges---even the NT---but we don't call them a disorder because they are the majority.

Interesting is to think about a world where 99% of the population was autistic, and 1% was NT. In this world, NT would be considered a disorder by many of the population because these people seem not to focus intently on special intense interests. And there are more traits that could be used here too, but I think it makes my point.

I have challenges in social interaction (the reading of cues, etc.), sensory issues, etc. etc. etc., but I gladly accept those challenges because of what autism has done for me---my talents that came from the special intense interests that came from my autism.


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17 Feb 2011, 12:30 pm

Genetic variation IS the norm in all species and the source of evolution. Asperger's is not a chemical imbalance, as despression is. If AS is strongly associated with genetics as studies suggest, I'm prone to consider it a normal variation in the species. Some may be at more of a disadvantage than others and while I appreciate the phychiatric community's attempts to 'help', it would go alot further if all this talk of 'normal' and 'typical' was transformed into something more accepting. While the autism support community may understand that Asperger's is just a personality difference, their 'normal' terminologies are, for the layperson, interpretted much more negatively.

Are we different - hell yeah. If it was such a negative, evolution and natural selection would have found a way to weed it out of the gene pool by now. Just because 'they' see it as a disadvantage, and science can't explain why the trait persists, doesn't mean it doesn't have a crucial function in society.

I think I preferred just being considered eccentric. People didn't discriminate as obviously then... they acknowledged you were weird and moved on with it.



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17 Feb 2011, 12:41 pm

Mdyar wrote:
One outside point of view :

Quote:
There exists a probably true notion that nowadays it is harder for Aspergoid individuals to find and hold a job than in the 1940s when Asperger wrote his paper. Since the 1960s, Western societies have undergone significant feminization, and men are now required to behave like women in many respects: to be "team players", to have "communication skills", to work in "office gardens" instead of having a room of their own, to talk about "emotions", to possess "E.Q.", to "multi-task", and so on. Such expectations are detrimental for this type, and what in the past would have fallen within the normal variance of personality now becomes a social and professional handicap. The blessings of feminism may be putting ever more potentially creative achievers in the disabled category, thus as it were castrating society's source of progress.


http://www.paulcooijmans.com/asperger/a ... rized.html

If my father and grandfather did not have AS I'm a flying goldfish-pig hybrid that farts rainbows and cries candyfloss. Neither of them had problems with their jobs. No one gave a crap if they smiled at their colleagues/neighbors or made a lot of small talk, just that they were good at their jobs and reasonably polite. Which they were, very much so. As far as anyone was concerned they were just somewhat shy introverted men with a stubborn streak who knew their stuff, kept to themselves and did their jobs well.