When people say Asperger's is a 'mental health' problem...

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KBerg
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17 Feb 2011, 12:41 pm

Mdyar wrote:
One outside point of view :

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There exists a probably true notion that nowadays it is harder for Aspergoid individuals to find and hold a job than in the 1940s when Asperger wrote his paper. Since the 1960s, Western societies have undergone significant feminization, and men are now required to behave like women in many respects: to be "team players", to have "communication skills", to work in "office gardens" instead of having a room of their own, to talk about "emotions", to possess "E.Q.", to "multi-task", and so on. Such expectations are detrimental for this type, and what in the past would have fallen within the normal variance of personality now becomes a social and professional handicap. The blessings of feminism may be putting ever more potentially creative achievers in the disabled category, thus as it were castrating society's source of progress.


http://www.paulcooijmans.com/asperger/a ... rized.html

If my father and grandfather did not have AS I'm a flying goldfish-pig hybrid that farts rainbows and cries candyfloss. Neither of them had problems with their jobs. No one gave a crap if they smiled at their colleagues/neighbors or made a lot of small talk, just that they were good at their jobs and reasonably polite. Which they were, very much so. As far as anyone was concerned they were just somewhat shy introverted men with a stubborn streak who knew their stuff, kept to themselves and did their jobs well.



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17 Feb 2011, 1:38 pm

glider18 wrote:
The problem is that the world is generally more intolerant to brain types different than the majority. The problem with Asperger's tends to be with the general population not accepting differences in the manner in which they should.


While I agree that "mental" issues are less tolerated, it isn't as straight forward as that. The organization of human culture emanates from the minds of the people in that culture and when the predominant cognitive processes are what we call NT, then the predominant social and cultural paradigms will be organized around NT cognition. Autistic cognition does NOT fit that organizational structure. It's not like a red headed individual can't wear hats that a blond can wear. It more like a cone head can't wear human hats. The differences in an autistic experience of reality are sufficiently at variance to that of the NT experience that we will ALWAYS be at the margins. An NT will never experience reality in the same manner as an autistic. And given their 99 to 1 ration in numbers, they will ALWAYS organize human culture around NT cognition. It will always be incumbent on autistics to adapt. The best we can hope for is enough tolerance that our adaptations are viewed positively. But the will always be adaptations, and we will always experience reality differently.
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Asperger's/autism is needed in the world. Without it, many of our scientific advances would not have been realized. I hardly can call Asperger's/autism a disorder if it has contributed so much to the world.


This is a self serving assertion that actually perpetuates stereotypes. You would have to prove (as in scientifically prove) that a particular contribution to society could have been derived if and only if the mind performing the derivation was autistic. There is nothing to suggest that the contributions of someone on the spectrum could not have also been accomplished by an NT via different means. To suggest autism is REQUIRED for the advancement of humanity is vastly overstating the case.

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Interesting is to think about a world where 99% of the population was autistic, and 1% was NT.


How would such a world even be viable? What is the distribution of functionality among ASDs? Would a society where half or more of the population can't work survive? Highly successful aspies are a minority of those on the spectrum. Your 1% transformed into the %99 would still have the same distribution of capabilities as currently seen in the 1% autistic population. We would be bottom heavy with people that need extra attention and care.


Again, I am a realist. I want my RIGHTS. My rights are the same as any other human. But this will always be an NT world. It will always be dominated by the cognitive map of the NT minds that fill it. I cannot change that and wishing it to be otherwise is a waste of my mental energy.


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misswoofalot
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17 Feb 2011, 1:56 pm

glider18 wrote:
misswoofalot wrote:
I definitely don't consider Aspergers to be a mental health problem or disorder . However, I think aspects of it can cause mental health problems . There are a lot of eccentrics out there who aren't labelled with mental health problems , just a bit odd - and I think its the same with Aspergers. There are more plus sides to being Aspie than not impo.

However, my Panic disorder is definitely a mental health problem. Maybe because it's episodic, it's not part of me and I haven't always had it. It makes me feel terrible and when I'm cured ,and in remission I look back and realise that I have been ill, even though I may not have realised at the time. Like depression.

Whereas Aspergers is part of me. Actually...not part of me - Aspergers is me. Aspergers can't be cured and I'm certain I wouldn't want to be because it certainly has it's benefits. Aspergers is part of my being just as much as the fact that I was born with brown hair. You can change the colour but underneath it's always brown.. I think that's how I differentiate between aspergers and mental illness.


This a great way of looking at AS and things associated with it. Though I have been officially diagnosed with AS, I haven't been with OCD---but I do have OCD in my opinion. I tend to count things obsessively. I have to check doors and electrical appliances a certain number of times to assure myself they are locked or turned off. Earlier this week I was driving to work when although I knew I had checked the front door, I couldn't remember the double checking ritual---so I had to turn around and check it the double time. Fortunately I was only a mile from home. But something like OCD can be very challenging. But it has saved the house too like when my wife forgets to unplug the curling iron. Before I leave the house in the morning I check th bath tub faucet, fridge door, lights, doors, etc. But it can be tiresome.

I think your thoughts on Aspergers is wonderful...a great way of viewing it.


Thanks :D I like to think so



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17 Feb 2011, 3:24 pm

You are welcome Misswoofalot.

To wavefreak58---I am having serious allergy problems today (off from work) so it is hard for me to concentrate on debate here. But just a couple things you wrote (and I didn't read it all). As for the hats---they would make cone shaped hats for the coneheads---therefore different kind of hat---but not a disordered one. As for adapting---I don't adapt. I don't need to adapt. I have always done my own thing and if people like it fine, if not...it's there problem. And because of this, my family and I have a happy existence because we accept each other's differences. But there are challenges like with anyone. As for scientific advances---I got that from one of the leading experts on autism---Temple Grandin. I think her reasoning is valid. I don't think the world is as NT as you think. An NT is one without any of the so-called differences. And very few people are without issues of some kind such as bi-polar, etc. The big thing right now in education is diversity---and as an educator I see overwhelming acceptance for differences in the school I teach in (public high school of all socio-economic classes).

By the way, nice artwork on your webpage.


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Last edited by glider18 on 17 Feb 2011, 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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17 Feb 2011, 3:41 pm

glider18 wrote:
You are welcome Misswoofalot.

To wavefreak58---I am having serious allergy problems today (off from work) so it is hard for me to concentrate on debate here. But just a couple things you wrote (and I didn't read it all). As for the hats---they would make cone shaped hats for the coneheads---therefore different kind of hat---but not a disordered one. As for adapting---I don't adapt. I don't need to adapt. I have always done my own thing and if people like it fine, if not...it's there problem. And because of this, my family and I have a happy existence because we accept each other's differences. But there are challenges like with anyone. As for scientific advances---I got that from one of the leading experts on autism---Temple Grandin. I think her reasoning is valid. I don't think the world is as NT as you think. An NT is one without any of the so-called differences. And very few people are without issues of some kind such as bi-polar, etc. The big thing right now in education is diversity---and as an educator I see overwhelming acceptance for differences in the school I teach in (public high school) of all socio-economic classes.


Allergies can be such a pain.

Temple Grandin's success only proves that Temple Grandin is successful. It in no way proves that her discoveries were possible only through the actions of an autistic mind. This is the flaw in the "autism is a necessary variant" argument. It may be a useful variant, but it has never been shown to be a necessary one.


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17 Feb 2011, 3:45 pm

We get so absorbed into special intense interests that we can become experts. Most NTs never absorb as deeply into interests as we do. I stand behind Temple Grandin on this one. And this is just opinion. But I am strongly opionated on my beliefs here.


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17 Feb 2011, 4:15 pm

glider18 wrote:
We get so absorbed into special intense interests that we can become experts. Most NTs never absorb as deeply into interests as we do. I stand behind Temple Grandin on this one. And this is just opinion. But I am strongly opionated on my beliefs here.


I won't argue about the utility of hyperfocus, nor the fact that autistic minds can, and do, create fantastic things. I am only arguing that the logic that autism is a necessary variant for human advancement is flawed. This is different than a belief. I believe that autism should not be "cured" (eliminated). But those beliefs are founded on moral and ethical grounds, not on the idea that autism is a necessary condition for the advancement of humanity. There are some that seem to suggest that if autism were eliminated, humanity would fail. I can't go that far. In my mind, if autism were eliminated, humanity would be diminished, but the species would continue.


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17 Feb 2011, 4:23 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:
glider18 wrote:
We get so absorbed into special intense interests that we can become experts. Most NTs never absorb as deeply into interests as we do. I stand behind Temple Grandin on this one. And this is just opinion. But I am strongly opionated on my beliefs here.


I won't argue about the utility of hyperfocus, nor the fact that autistic minds can, and do, create fantastic things. I am only arguing that the logic that autism is a necessary variant for human advancement is flawed. This is different than a belief. I believe that autism should not be "cured" (eliminated). But those beliefs are founded on moral and ethical grounds, not on the idea that autism is a necessary condition for the advancement of humanity. There are some that seem to suggest that if autism were eliminated, humanity would fail. I can't go that far. In my mind, if autism were eliminated, humanity would be diminished, but the species would continue.


We seem to agree on most of this debate. I don't think humanity would fail either without autism. I just believe that we would not be as far advanced. But then again, take away the NTs from the world history, and we wouldn't have been as far advanced either. I believe it takes both autism and NT in order to make the world function properly. Take away either and you have a much more stymied world.


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17 Feb 2011, 4:25 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:
glider18 wrote:
We get so absorbed into special intense interests that we can become experts. Most NTs never absorb as deeply into interests as we do. I stand behind Temple Grandin on this one. And this is just opinion. But I am strongly opionated on my beliefs here.


I won't argue about the utility of hyperfocus, nor the fact that autistic minds can, and do, create fantastic things. I am only arguing that the logic that autism is a necessary variant for human advancement is flawed. This is different than a belief. I believe that autism should not be "cured" (eliminated). But those beliefs are founded on moral and ethical grounds, not on the idea that autism is a necessary condition for the advancement of humanity. There are some that seem to suggest that if autism were eliminated, humanity would fail. I can't go that far. In my mind, if autism were eliminated, humanity would be diminished, but the species would continue.


Why the variant though, wavefreak. Is it a freak of nature?



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17 Feb 2011, 4:30 pm

glider18 wrote:
Take away either and you have a much more stymied world.


Something like that.

I think sometimes people don't realize how precise I am being when I post things. It's a bit ironic that I drive literal thinking aspies bonkers because I am so freaking literal. :bounce:


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18 Feb 2011, 1:23 am

The whole idea of something being a mental health problem vs. not a mental health problem is kind of nonsense anyway.

Basically, a psychiatric problem is something that is dealt with by psychiatry. That's all it means. It's not a measure of what kind of condition something is, it has nothing to do with that. All it has to do with is what group of assorted historically-accidental people "treat" the condition. That's all. Nothing more. Arguing about it is kind of meaningless.


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18 Feb 2011, 1:56 am

Well if I did not have aspergers I probably would not have such difficulties with functioning socially, it is pretty much nessisary to be able to do that so something that interferes with that would be a psychological problem in my opinion.



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18 Feb 2011, 9:52 am

But does any1 else here experience a sense of isolation that feels like a DIRECT result of autism? In other words, what about the emotional effects of being so cut off from one's surroundings? - It doesn't surprise me that anxiety and depression are so common among us even (often, I suspect) in the absence of any constant bullying. I don't mean to depress anyone, but I do wonder how others - particularly those with a Myers-Briggs 'F'-type underlying personality - find fulfilment in a world which lacks any of the concrete links to them that NT brains create automatically (see the above-referenced article at http://www.paulcooijmans.com/asperger/a ... rized.html).

A sentient life is made up of thinking, feeling, and most of all, doing - I wonder how a severely asperger's or low-functioning autist 'do' anything complex (i.e. involving of all major brain regions/processes) given the mental/brain-activity fragmentation that has been shown to be characteristic of autism.

I am slightly confused by the references to thinking/cognition in this thread - I can't point to any major, obvious deviance (from the norm) in the nature of my CONSCIOUS thought processes, and suspect that we're talking about unconscious habits of mental processing such as remembeing what a facial expression means based on what someone else has shown/told us, as opposed to just knowing it-??



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18 Feb 2011, 10:16 am

Mdyar wrote:

Why the variant though, wavefreak. Is it a freak of nature?


In my rubric, there is no such thing as a freak of nature. There are variations. The variations have consequences.

Freak is a word that carries a lot of judgment. Except when applied to waves, of course.


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18 Feb 2011, 11:43 am

wavefreak58 wrote:
Seems to me there is a lot of hair splitting going on here, with the goal of eliminating stigmas attached to various words. But for all practical purposes, autism is my brain and my mind. If that isn't mental, then I don't know how else to look at it.


I like this idea :)



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18 Feb 2011, 11:58 am

Autism is a mental health difference. It varies from what would be considered the average healthy human being. Whether you perceive it as a problem or not is completely subjective.